Why Did Jesus ?

[jasonc]

My point was that translators choose different words, the original reader read the same word. In the Greek text the reader sees the same thing, in the English text we see different things depending on what the translator believes.

a parry knife is deadly. I know a man that died with one thrust. never think a knife isn't worthwhile. while not able take on a legion its not the intent of that anyway.

a man was stabbed here in cold blood, the knife nearly exited the back of the man.

 

[Butch5]

a parry knife is deadly. I know a man that died with one thrust. never think a knife isn't worthwhile. while not able take on a legion its not the intent of that anyway.

a man was stabbed here in cold blood, the knife nearly exited the back of the man.

Yes, a knife is deadly. However, that doesn't mean that Jesus intended it for that use.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, a knife is deadly. However, that doesn't mean that Jesus intended it for that use.

what would he tell them to use it for? im not saying murder just self defense or possibly small game. hunting with a knife against a large animal is something of legends.

 

[Butch5]

what would he tell them to use it for? im not saying murder just self defense or possibly small game. hunting with a knife against a large animal is something of legends.

Cutting food, rope, or anything they might need to cut. They were being sent to nations they were going to be traveling. Many men carry pocket knives today and use them for many things.

 

[jasonc]

Cutting food, rope, or anything they might need to cut. They were being sent to nations they were going to be traveling. Many men carry pocket knives today and use them for many things.

they didn't have pocket knifes for that. you can do that with a sword, shoot a rock. if jesus said don't use it in that context he would have said so. yet there is no clear context. I cant base a doctrine on no context.

I have seen haji cut rope with a rock,it takes practice but like with chain its not a blade that breaks it. pressure via leverage does the trick with chain. Have you ever seen how they cut chain? I have with a lever and two blocks one doesn't move the other is moved by the lever which is the mechanical means to shere the chain. yes one can use a bolt cutter. but this takes less space.

 

[Butch5]

they didn't have pocket knifes for that. you can do that with a sword, shoot a rock. if jesus said don't use it in that context he would have said so. yet there is no clear context. I cant base a doctrine on no context.

I have seen haji cut rope with a rock,it takes practice but like with chain its not a blade that breaks it. pressure via leverage does the trick with chain. Have you ever seen how they cut chain? I have with a lever and two blocks one doesn't move the other is moved by the lever which is the mechanical means to shere the chain. yes one can use a bolt cutter. but this takes less space.

If you can't base a doctrine on no context, how can you claim self defense is OK, when there is nothing in the teachings of Christ that tells Christians it's OK to use self defense.

 

[jasonc]

If you can't base a doctrine on no context, how can you claim self defense is OK, when there is nothing in the teachings of Christ that tells Christians it's OK to use self defense.

I posted a link on an eye for an eye.
what did that really mean? no justice? given what most assume the logical conclusion would be not to call the law on a criminal. when jesus mentioned that It was about a rabbi teaching vengeance upon the roman soldier for their treatment. jesus said make them see you as an equal.

you would have to show me that jesus said that one cant be charged for a crime. good luck.

on what the jews say that is to them. note this.

http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_mishpatim.html

so jesus said that its wrong to charge a criminal? that is the logical conclusion of his statements. im all for mercy but if they aren't going to change then we cant just let them go. ie they say sorry for the 30th murder they commit. we loose family on his 30th. that makes no sense.


it makes more sense if you look at the idea of trying to change the roman army in its treatment of jews by forcing them to respect you with their right hand. they then have to try to hit you with their left or see what they are doing.

if there is a law that says if you know a thief has escaped and is charged with a crime, do you disobey that law?

 

[Butch5]

I posted a link on an eye for an eye.
what did that really mean? no justice? given what most assume the logical conclusion would be not to call the law on a criminal. when jesus mentioned that It was about a rabbi teaching vengeance upon the roman soldier for their treatment. jesus said make them see you as an equal.

you would have to show me that jesus said that one cant be charged for a crime. good luck.

on what the jews say that is to them. note this.

http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_mishpatim.html

so jesus said that its wrong to charge a criminal? that is the logical conclusion of his statements. im all for mercy but if they aren't going to change then we cant just let them go. ie they say sorry for the 30th murder they commit. we loose family on his 30th. that makes no sense.


it makes more sense if you look at the idea of trying to change the roman army in its treatment of jews by forcing them to respect you with their right hand. they then have to try to hit you with their left or see what they are doing.

if there is a law that says if you know a thief has escaped and is charged with a crime, do you disobey that law?

I don't know what you're getting at here but, an eye for an eye was given to Israel, it was a law to govern a nation. Jesus said, but I say to you. Isaiah prophesied of a time when things would change, that time was when Christ came.

5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.
8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them." (Isa 42:5-9 NKJ)

This is a prophesy about Christ, He is the light to the Gentiles and the Scriptures say the former things have come to pass and new things I declare. The Mosaic Law ended and an eye for an eye was part of the Mosaic Law.

 

[jasonc]

I don't know what you're getting at here but, an eye for an eye was given to Israel, it was a law to govern a nation. Jesus said, but I say to you. Isaiah prophesied of a time when things would change, that time was when Christ came.

5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:
6 "I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,
7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.
8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them." (Isa 42:5-9 NKJ)

This is a prophesy about Christ, He is the light to the Gentiles and the Scriptures say the former things have come to pass and new things I declare. The Mosaic Law ended and an eye for an eye was part of the Mosaic Law.

its a sin to call the cops?


romans 13, god uses government to contain evil. you are ignoring that part. the torah has that to it. so how then can you say jesus is contradicted by paul and peter?

kindly explain that to me that you are saying we must not follow laws against reporting escaped convicts. in my state its a crime to harbor a felon that escaped. if im a victim of a crime(that is what im saying with an eye for an eye as that was judged by the Sanhedrin) I shouldn't report it?you can petetition the court. that is what im getting at. did jesus change what a theif is? so he changed that god ordained government back way back when since the days prior noah? the first law recording as a death penalty was in genesis.
a man who sheddeth blood , shall himself shed his blood. jesus changed that? show me that.

 

[Butch5]

its a sin to call the cops?


romans 13, god uses government to contain evil. you are ignoring that part. the torah has that to it. so how then can you say jesus is contradicted by paul and peter?

kindly explain that to me that you are saying we must not follow laws against reporting escaped convicts. in my state its a crime to harbor a felon that escaped. if im a victim of a crime(that is what im saying with an eye for an eye as that was judged by the Sanhedrin) I shouldn't report it?you can petetition the court. that is what im getting at. did jesus change what a theif is? so he changed that god ordained government back way back when since the days prior noah? the first law recording as a death penalty was in genesis.
a man who sheddeth blood , shall himself shed his blood. jesus changed that? show me that.

It's about the Scriptures not who we should turn in. I gave the words of Isaiah who prophesied that when Christ came the old things would end. The Law was to show what justice is, it was a tutor as Paul says. Jesus told His followers to go the extra mile.

 

[jasonc]

It's about the Scriptures not who we should turn in. I gave the words of Isaiah who prophesied that when Christ came the old things would end. The Law was to show what justice is, it was a tutor as Paul says. Jesus told His followers to go the extra mile.

ok, if you think that then when they come back and rape you.let them do it again. uhm before the torah was given to moses , the jews had and idea of the torah they knew what was wrong. see the account of joseph, the story Abraham in Egypt, the account of Dinah, the account of cain and abel. Sodom and gommorah. but why the torah was given at horeb is another topic. its a teaching to the jews of how to be holy to God whom married them there.

that is by context the same thing. a thief stealing land or things would be given something. one has to take the bible for its day and the issue. the roman soldiers would ask them to walk a mile , they did two, noticed he said nothing about theft there. if a man take a cloak in court isn't theft but a common practice of one wronging another(you made the mistake and lost so let them take the thing in order to win the case). not theft.

per the law of rome a soldier would place his sword on the locals and they had to carry his sword and shield for one mile. jesus said don't fight that obey it. on the turning the other check that was an insult by the romans to them. rather then fight and be made. force them to see you as a peer. insults aren't a threat per se. they are just insults. not worth the fight. I don't punch coworkers for insulting me. I just ignore them. I don't have insult back. its that he was saying. not non-violence.

romans 13 is scripture.so I cant be an agent of god for the containment of evil. show me where jesus said to any centurion that they weren't to use that sword. good luck.

 

[Butch5]

ok, if you think that then when they come back and rape you.let them do it again. uhm before the torah was given to moses , the jews had and idea of the torah they knew what was wrong. see the account of joseph, the story Abraham in Egypt, the account of Dinah, the account of cain and abel. Sodom and gommorah. but why the torah was given at horeb is another topic. its a teaching to the jews of how to be holy to God whom married them there.

that is by context the same thing. a thief stealing land or things would be given something. one has to take the bible for its day and the issue. the roman soldiers would ask them to walk a mile , they did two, noticed he said nothing about theft there. if a man take a cloak in court isn't theft but a common practice of one wronging another(you made the mistake and lost so let them take the thing in order to win the case). not theft.

per the law of rome a soldier would place his sword on the locals and they had to carry his sword and shield for one mile. jesus said don't fight that obey it. on the turning the other check that was an insult by the romans to them. rather then fight and be made. force them to see you as a peer. insults aren't a threat per se. they are just insults. not worth the fight. I don't punch coworkers for insulting me. I just ignore them. I don't have insult back. its that he was saying. not non-violence.

romans 13 is scripture.so I cant be an agent of god for the containment of evil. show me where jesus said to any centurion that they weren't to use that sword. good luck.

You're making a lot of claims I don't think you can back up. Jesus brought a new law and that law says not to return evil for evil. If it is evil to hit someone then to hit in self defense is evil. It doesn't matter who hit who first. Jesus said to love your enemies, that really sums up the whole argument.

Regarding Romans 13, when Paul wrote that Nero was ruling. Christians were not in the government therefore those ministers that Paul is referring to were not Christians, they were pagans.

 

[jasonc]

You're making a lot of claims I don't think you can back up. Jesus brought a new law and that law says not to return evil for evil. If it is evil to hit someone then to hit in self defense is evil. It doesn't matter who hit who first. Jesus said to love your enemies, that really sums up the whole argument.

Regarding Romans 13, when Paul wrote that Nero was ruling. Christians were not in the government therefore those ministers that Paul is referring to were not Christians, they were pagans.

Erastus was a treasurer. he was part of the roman government. the centurion peter saved wasn't the in the government either. see acts for that.

so when your credit card Is stolen, you don't report it. you just let them? you said to love thine enemy. that is what that said, if you report that to your credit card company block that card and when he uses it and its stolen he is then charged with a card.

who said this first?

if thou seest thine enemies ass in the ditch or the wayside thou shall not fail to return in to him. moses or jesus?

 

[jasonc]

I know the torah. there is also things on this in the torah about reconciliation.
Jacob and esau. enemies, reconciled and buried their father issac.
joseph and his brethren whom hated him and he forgave them.
jesus didn't teach them that as they know the Heshem, it was told to them by other means of oral ways or examples that aren't recorded.
king david longed for his son absolom, whom hated his dad and told joash not to slay him. odd for something so unknown to the people of isreal. you did say that the Lord changed this. im not seeing with these stories. I see forgiveness in just those stories. Isaac and ishmeal burying Abraham.
David showing mercy to saul whom was his enemy when he was promised the throne.
David killing a man and commiting adultery and God not slaying him or having the priests slaying him. there was no atonement for those sins, only death. yet god said he wouldn't die.
therefore its not new. jesus restressed what they were to do if possible.

 

[Lewis]

Butch5 wrote
Jesus said to love your enemies, that really sums up the whole argument.

Not everybody can mature that much in their walk. And God does not expect you to stand up there and let a guy beat your brains out with a steel pipe.

 

[jasonc]

Not everybody can mature that much in their walk. And God does not expect you to stand up there and let a guy beat your brains out with a steel pipe.

agree. it takes a lot of maturing and prayer to forgive. I have forgiven the man whom raped my sister. he still should have served time for his crime. I can forgive a man but that doesn't mean he shouldn't see time.

 

[Butch5]

Not everybody can mature that much in their walk. And God does not expect you to stand up there and let a guy beat your brains out with a steel pipe.

This isn't really an argument. No one is suggesting that one stand there and be attacked. Jesus told his disciples when they were persecuted to flee that city.

 

[Butch5]

I know the torah. there is also things on this in the torah about reconciliation.
Jacob and esau. enemies, reconciled and buried their father issac.
joseph and his brethren whom hated him and he forgave them.
jesus didn't teach them that as they know the Heshem, it was told to them by other means of oral ways or examples that aren't recorded.
king david longed for his son absolom, whom hated his dad and told joash not to slay him. odd for something so unknown to the people of isreal. you did say that the Lord changed this. im not seeing with these stories. I see forgiveness in just those stories. Isaac and ishmeal burying Abraham.
David showing mercy to saul whom was his enemy when he was promised the throne.
David killing a man and commiting adultery and God not slaying him or having the priests slaying him. there was no atonement for those sins, only death. yet god said he wouldn't die.
therefore its not new. jesus restressed what they were to do if possible.

Isaiah prophesied of the time or Christ that old things have passed and new things would be. Jesus gave a new law. I'm not sure why you're going to the Torah.

 

[Butch5]

Erastus was a treasurer. he was part of the roman government. the centurion peter saved wasn't the in the government either. see acts for that.

so when your credit card Is stolen, you don't report it. you just let them? you said to love thine enemy. that is what that said, if you report that to your credit card company block that card and when he uses it and its stolen he is then charged with a card.

who said this first?

if thou seest thine enemies ass in the ditch or the wayside thou shall not fail to return in to him. moses or jesus?

It doesn't need to be taken to the ridiculous. Paul used the Roman authorities at times so that would allow the Christian.

The bottom line is that there is no argument to be made for the use of violence or self defense in the teachings of Christ or the apostles. Any attempt to support that idea from Scripture must go to the old covenant because it's simply not in the new one. Loving one's enemy is a great way to show one's love for God, yet it doesn't seem like too many are interested,

 

[Gary]

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

.