Why did Messiah Jesus (God the Son) need to die for our sins?

[John Zain]

Perhaps I heard the explanation years ago, but I've fogotten it.​

Lately, my firm understanding is as follows ...​

God's merciful (and full of grace) PLAN ...
To produce a sinless human who would stand in as our Substitute,
and be a Sacrificial Lamb, and die for the sins of the human race!​

I'm assuming you understand why man could NOT accomplish this for himself. ​

And continuing God's ancient blood covenant played a part also.​

I see absolutely NO necessity for God Himself to become man,
"fully" or otherwise (such as the infamous "GOD-man").​

Proofs from Scripture are preferred ... Opinions are welcome also.
But, the most important thing is that you sleep well.​

 

[stovebolts]

Hebrews 9:19-26 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus was that promised seed who would become our mediator before the Father. Jesus died to fulfill the law being made the final blood sacrifice so every nation, Jew or Gentile could reconcile themselves back to God through repentance. The laws were only given to the Israelite and carried a curse with them if not follow. The Gentiles were not subject to the laws of God and were thought to be heathens unworthy of Gods love as they sought out their own gods. Jesus was made flesh and blood to walk among all nations teaching them of the love of God so the just could live by faith. Jesus instructed Peter to continue in the Gentile nations as they were as worthy of Gods grace as much as the Israelite were, Acts chapter 10.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

 

[Mtwildman]

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Mtwildman]

Here is the reason man could not save himself...

 

[Mtwildman]

Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

[Mtwildman]

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Isaiah 43:6-7 (KJV)
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


We see that we were creasted for the LORD's Glory
The LORD created us so it must be the LORD who also saves us. In doing so the devil can not accuse the LORD of not fixing what he created. If the LORD had sent another to do his work, what do you think the devil would have said? So we see the LORD gave himself in place of each and every one of us, to show his love toward us by taking responsibility for his creation. God created man, man became wicked, God is liable for what is his.

Exodus 21:29 (KJV)
29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Here we see an example of what I shared above. As we know the devil has always pointed the finger at God saying look what man has done, testifing to him the wickedness that man has done to one another.

 

[elijah23]

If Jesus had not died for our sins, Satan would be able to torture us forever for the sins we had committed.

 

[John Zain]

I'm sorry, but I believe everyone is missing the point.

Why did God, God the Son, "fully God", etc. need to die for our sins?

The man Jesus of Nazareth was born having the Holy Spirit as his Father (Luke 1:26-35).
I don't see this as meaning that this man was "fully God".
“Adam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come†(Romans 5:14).
Pre-fall Adam ... and ... Jesus of Nazareth ... were BOTH sinless men.

God's PLAN # 1 (full of compassion and grace) ...
Produce a perfect sinless human who would stand in as our Substitute,
and be the perfect Sacrificial Lamb, and die for the sins of the human race!

I'm assuming you understand why man could NOT accomplish this for himself.
I believe continuing God's ancient blood covenant also played a part in this.

God's PLAN #2 ...
Have God Himself become a man, a "fully God" man.

WHY did God choose to do the second plan? ... Was it necessary?

God produced His sinless man, which was sufficient to provide for man’s salvation.
Originally, before his fall, the man Adam was without any sin.
“Adam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come†(Romans 5:14).
Adam’s fall resulted in sin, and death, and the condemnation of all men.
Jesus Christ’s righteous act was a free gift, which resulted in the justification of life for many.

Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned —
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died,
much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ,
abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned.
For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation,
but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive
abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,
so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.
But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign
through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jake]

I'm sorry, but I believe everyone is missing the point.

Why did God, God the Son, "fully God", etc. need to die for our sins?

The man Jesus of Nazareth was born having the Holy Spirit as his Father (Luke 1:26-35).
I don't see this as meaning that this man was "fully God".
“Adam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come†(Romans 5:14).
Pre-fall Adam ... and ... Jesus of Nazareth ... were BOTH sinless men.

God's PLAN # 1 (full of compassion and grace) ...
Produce a perfect sinless human who would stand in as our Substitute,
and be the perfect Sacrificial Lamb, and die for the sins of the human race!

I'm assuming you understand why man could NOT accomplish this for himself.
I believe continuing God's ancient blood covenant also played a part in this.

God's PLAN #2 ...
Have God Himself become a man, a "fully God" man.

WHY did God choose to do the second plan? ... Was it necessary?

God produced His sinless man, which was sufficient to provide for man’s salvation.
Originally, before his fall, the man Adam was without any sin.
“Adam, who is a type of Him (Jesus) who was to come†(Romans 5:14).
Adam’s fall resulted in sin, and death, and the condemnation of all men.
Jesus Christ’s righteous act was a free gift, which resulted in the justification of life for many.

Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned —
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died,
much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ,
abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned.
For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation,
but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive
abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation,
even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,
so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.
But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign
through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God did not have a plan and then shocked by Adam's fall, change His plan, NO! His plan, from the beginning is what took place! God came in the flesh as Jesus, as the sacrificial passover lamb, and beat death. Now, we are able to participate in revealing God's glory, in that we are conforming to Christ, to His full stature.

His plan, from the beginning, was so His glory would be revealed.

 

[John Zain]

God did not have a plan and then shocked by Adam's fall, change His plan, NO! His plan, from the beginning is what took place! God came in the flesh as Jesus, as the sacrificial passover lamb, and beat death. Now, we are able to participate in revealing God's glory, in that we are conforming to Christ, to His full stature.
His plan, from the beginning, was so His glory would be revealed.

I did not say God changed His plan. Please read it again.
I asked, "Why Plan 2?"

 

[Jake]

I did not say God changed His plan. Please read it again.
I asked why Plan 2.

I told you, to reveal His Glory.

The gospel is about how God came down into our time and space to set up His Kingdom, that is why.

 

[HisSheep]

Exactly what Rockie said...

I think of it like this...

It didn't NEED to be this way, but this is how God said it would be.

...Hence it is this way.

This is simply how God choose to do it.

For it is written:

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

That's why a God-man came. 'Cause God said so... He came and called himself the "Son of Man", yet he said "I and the Father are one."

I suppose God COULD have done things differently, but when I read Rev. 21 and 22 I realize that He's doing everything just fine, thank you.

Also:

Hebrews 9:22 tells us why it is by blood.

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

In fact, the very FIRST sacrifice was performed by God himself (perhaps by or through Jesus... who holds the office of high priest...) in Genesis 3:21 God clothes Adam and Eve in skins...

Genesis 3:21
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

And so God shed blood to cover the sins of man. Beautiful isn't it?

These animals which God Himself killed to produce these skins were the first deaths in the world.

And so we see death enter the world through sin. (Rom 5:12)

It is part of the nature of God that sin requires death.

Because He says so, and for no other reason...

That's the best reason I can think of.

-HisSheep

 

[John Zain]

It didn't NEED to be this way, but this is how God said it would be.
...Hence it is this way.
This is simply how God choose to do it.

Okay, okay ... still nobody gets what this thread is about.
If you'd like to redeem yourself, go and read and understand Post #1.
I'm outta here, dude.

 

[HisSheep]

John Zain,
If six of six people misunderstand your question, you may want to rephrase your question.

I think people understand the question you asked. Perhaps they don’t understand a question you DIDN’T ask.

I took your question like this:
"Why did the Son of God have to die for our sins?"
I answered like this:
"'Cause God said so..."
That really is the bottom line.

I included the biblical “proofsâ€.

It's the same reason the universe exists; because God said so...

Same reason Paul was chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentiles; ‘cause God said so.

Same reason Jonah had to go to Nineveh; ‘cause God said so.

I even tried to tie in the “blood covenant†that you mentioned to show that it is in keeping with God’s character.

Why do you ask?
What is your take on it?

I must admit that I don’t know how to interpret the different colored fonts that you used in post #1. A few other members here do this too, and I usually don’t know how to take it. What should I make of the blue and red? Is that to be taken as sarcasm? Emphasis? Like a raised voice? Do you especially agree or disagree with the red/blue part of your post.

When you say “Lately, my firm understanding is as follows…†Are you about to tell us what you personally believe, or are you telling us the teaching of others with whom you disagree?

Please clarify.
-HisSheep

 

[John Zain]

HisSheep,

A very excellent response ... sorry for your frustration.
The colors are only for readability and emphasis ... to help people read and understand my points.
My own personal feelings (questions) are ...
Wasn't God's perfect sinless man ENOUGH to shed his precious blood for our sins?
(He served as the second (pre-fall sinless) Adam.)
Was it necessary, or only desired, for God Himself also to shed his precious blood for our sins?

Bonus:
I can absolutely guarantee you right here and now (from my dealings in forums) that:
Americans are not educated to appreciate the meaning and value of (English) words.
Plus, many people scan posts at a million miles an hour.

 

[HisSheep]

John Zain,

English has been in decline the world over, not just in the U.S. Consider the loss of second person, plural pronouns!

Anyway, I still think you could be a bit more clear. Are you suggesting that God could have sent a “better Adam†in Jesus’ stead? Not a “God-man†but another human Adam, empowered to do a better job than the first Adam did?

This implies that God did not intend (or superintend) the fall.

I think the point of the fall itself was to demonstrate the fallibility of man. Through the revelation of this truth, we have evidence of God’s divine nature.
Besides, a redeemed people cannot be had if they are not first in need of redemption.

One of the teachings that have fallen out of favor in the modern church is the depravity of man. That depraved nature remains until a man is glorified. Only then will we be like Him. (1 John 3:2) Prior to that, only God himself could set the perfect example. Only God could face the temptations of the Devil (Mat 4) and not succumb.

It would not be enough for a really, really good human to SHOW us the way; this redeemer/shepherd needed to BE the way. He did, in the flesh, everything we are to do; submission, obedience, service, sacrifice, purity, leadership.
No Human could keep all of the law.
Only God Himself could do this.

The more substantial point is that the Scriptures are fulfilled by the coming of Christ (God). They would not be fulfilled by the coming of a really good man. That’s why I cited Isaiah 9:6 which plainly says that the savior would be God Himself.

So still I say, God could have done it differently, but this is how he has done it.
He could have made us to breathe water and the fish to breathe air, but this is how he has done it.

He is God. He simply says it and it happens. I don’t question it.

If salvation were to come to the world in any other way, the Bible would necessarily look quite different. Can you imagine?

Do you see doctrinal implications that make this an important question?

To me it's like this...

Person 1 "Hey man, imagine if the sky were orange instead of blue..."

Person 2 "Wow man, that would sure be different..."

Person 1 "Yup, sure would..."

-HisSheep

 

[John Zain]

It would not be enough for a really, really good human to SHOW us the way;
this redeemer/shepherd needed to BE the way. He did, in the flesh, everything we are to do;
submission, obedience, service, sacrifice, purity, leadership.
No Human could keep all of the law. Only God Himself could do this.
The more substantial point is that the Scriptures are fulfilled by the coming of Christ (God).
They would not be fulfilled by the coming of a really good man.
That’s why I cited Isaiah 9:6 which plainly says that the savior would be God Himself.

Look, a perfect SINLESS man could do all of your blue.
So, I don't agree with your following points.

Isaiah 9:6 just says God decided to make the man fully God.
It doesn't say WHY He chose to do it.
But I'm asking WHY He chose to do it.

I don't have any Scriptures, except maybe the OT blood covenant ones.
And the NT says Jesus was the perfect ultimate sinless blood sacrifice, etc.
Theoretical question only ... but no one seems to get it.

 

[HisSheep]

But that's my point...
no MAN could do those things suficiently (perfectly) until after the redemption experience... That is after his glorification, when He will be like Christ.

Anyway, in a sense, God DID make a perfect, sinless man, didn't he?

-Mike