Why Didn't Jesus Know Everything?

[Free]

Free:

It is quite relevant to the question at hand, as per the OP. I have had many talks with JWs, both in my house, at friends' houses, and online, and every single one has attacked the deity of Jesus and denied the Trinity. The NWT is purposely mistranslated to make several passages that speak of the deity of Jesus appear to say something else. The official position of the Watchtower is that Jesus is a created being, not God, and the Trinity is a false doctrine. Do you deny this?

I get the feeling your not actually reading what I have posted. I am still wondering what the JW's believe have anything to do with the question.

As I clearly stated, the OP was questioning the use of the verse by JW's to disprove the deity of Jesus and the Trinity. That is the topic of this thread. I don't know why that seems to be so hard to understand.

I even wonder why anyone cares what the JW's believe. I am not a fan of the trinity concept though, as well as many others. We are the Godhead bodily (The Body of Christ) and the trinity excludes man from God's family. Just one of many reason I don't care for the doctrine. I also don't care for what the JW's believe and not just on their concept of Jesus.

But you seemed to allude to your being a JW. You really need to answer the clarifying questions I have been asking you. See post #60.

It matters because Jesus is the central figure of the entire Bible. Who Jesus is is central to salvation. The JWs claim to be Christian yet deny the clear teaching that he is God in human flesh, truly God and truly man; the God-man.

And, no, in no way whatsoever does the Trinity exclude man from God's family.

Who is using doctrine to prove Jesus didn't know what he was talking about? Who has even made the claim that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about?

One of many examples I notice trinity dodge is when Jesus said the father is greater than I. If Jesus said so, then it's so. There is really no other questioning here when the Head of the Church speaks. Trinity attempts to remove many things Jesus and the Apostles said to fit their concept of what theos really means. I don't like the Word being changed, the word is suppose to change us.
So, anyone that thinks Jesus does know the day and hour of his coming would have to say that Jesus was not being honest. Some don't like it that cut and dried but it's real simple.

It isn't nearly as simply as you think it is. What you are doing, as every other anti-trinitarian does, is precisely what I have mentioned now twice. You are taking verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture, putting verses that speak of Jesus' humanity over and above those that clearly speak of his deity, without any justification for doing so.

And no one is saying that Jesus knows the day and the hour of his coming. That is a strawman by you.

The doctrine of the Trinity in no way "attempts to remove many things Jesus and the Apostles said to fit their concept of what theos really means." The doctrine of the Trinity attempts to reconcile all that Scripture reveals about the nature of God without negating either his humanity or his deity.

Free

But that is precisely what we are trying to do here. I don't understand what you're getting at. JW's and anti-trinitarians use this passage to say that "it works," that Jesus' claim to not know is because he isn't God. That's the whole point.

Free, I don't know what passages they use, seriously Brother. I know they put "A" for the Word was "A" God and it's not in the Greek. Anti-trinitarian does not equal JW belief's.

I have never said that anti-trinitarian is equal to JW beliefs.

If Jesus said He don't know, then it ought to be good enough, we can ask him later. It has nothing to do with Him being God, or the Saviour or anything else, if He says it, then it should be end of story.

You seem not to be following the whole point of this discussion. Please re-read the OP for what this topic is about.

I can't help that the scripture does not fit perfectly into some trinity concept. All doctrines have those problematic scriptures, not just trinity. That was my point, you don't need a trinity doctrine to explain it, and you don't need to bring up the JW's to explain it. What did Jesus say?

It provides absolutely no problem to the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity Doctrine has some major issues. If you want to believe in one God then fine. It would be hard to switch the believe to a Father and Son (Family) where the Father actually was with the son forever. Jesus laid it all down and God sent a actual son, not some part of himself. A son would be no different than a father so both are God, none less than the other. My son is no less human than I am, and He is not worth less. A concept we should all understand.

1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

God send himself? NO His son! This is one of many, many, many scriptures that Jesus is not His Father, or a piece of His Father.

Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Is God speaking to himself here? One of his 3 manifestation? NO, His beloved son, whom He calls God. God is not having an identity crises here having to assure himself.

Is the son the creator? If you mistranslate "DIA" He is.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Did God make himself an heir because he did such a great job? If there is only one then God must have given it to one of his own parts. Like giving my hand money for being a good hand. NO, He has a real son by whom He made all things for and did all things for. The son that was always there with him.

YLT:
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God; (Who? Jesus, the Word that became flesh)
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Everything God the Father did was for and through the Son of God.

YLT:
Col_1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

In Jesus were all things created, through Him and for Him. A Father, who loves and exalted his son.

This is why I don't buy into trinity. No matter how fancy you want to word it, if there is just ONE God, then we have no mediator unless God manifest a piece of himself to mediate with. It's also near impossible to explain to anyone when they start asking. "Who Jesus pray to" "Why two thrones" "where is the Holy Spirits throne" " Why does the Holy Spirit not speak on His own if He is equally God" Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

I can only make everything fit perfectly one way. The Holy Spirit Belongs to God since I don't have a scripture calling Him God and God always had taken ownership of the Holy Spirit. Also, God the Father and God the son have always been. Now I can explain all those questions with no issues.

I have nothing against those that believe in Trinity Doctrine. For me personally though I need every scripture to fit perfectly. I need it to make sense. I am tired of people showing me a picture of an egg to explain something they can't. I also can't get past a new concept of what a Father and Son is. Both can be as one, working as one. both can be as equally important as the other, but a Son is not His Father. Just like the Husband and wife are one flesh. We are, but she is also not me at the same time.

So, if Jesus said he did not know, and you want to believe in a trinity concept. Can't you just say that one part of God's personality did not yet reveal it to the other part that is head of the Church? What is wrong with that? Trinity believes in 3 different parts that do function different. You can keep the doctrine and keep what Jesus said, and He said He don't know as that Part of God deals with the Church.

Sorry so long. God bless you and thanx for hanging in there.

Mike.

Those verses you provided not only do not prove the Trinity false, they make the most sense within a trinitarian framework.

 

[Maedchen]

I get the feeling your not actually reading what I have posted. I am still wondering what the JW's believe have anything to do with the question.

The Jehovahs' Witnesses are at the heart of the question since they were the ones to pose the question to me.
I had no answer so I put it on the forum.
What I see is people unwittingly in agreement with them.

Titus 2:13;

"while we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Christs' 2nd appearing will be of God's "glory" as the 1st was of His "grace".
Then Jesus will be openly manifested not only as "our Savior" but also in all the glory of His majesty or greatness as "God". This is divine glory.[/QUOTE]

Dear Allen,

I just managed to finish reading the whole thread. As I am a bit slow in reading and understanding, I might not have everything in my mind now that has already been said. But since you are interested in answering the question that JWs spoke to you, I simply have to contribute a little here.

As you know, half a year ago I was one of those JWs who knocked at the doors and asked people this and similar questions. We were very well trained to do so. In fact, we have learned " conversation starters" and effective replies to " conversation stoppers". The drill in the Watchtower Organization is highly controlled, the effectiveness of members is written down and laziness in the preaching work is punished with being disciplined. The words I used in my own 'field service' were trained in every meeting. They are tailored to make the most possible impact in a few seconds, because that is usually the time that people in their homes gave us to speak before saying that they are not interested. So it is no wonder, dear Allen, that this question remained in your thoughts, and it is no wonder that it leads to arguing. It is meant to get stuck in your mind, as the Governing Body of JWs ( the leaders in Brooklyn, NY) made their homework over the years and put all effectiveness of modern psychology into their teachings, which consists mostly of questions that lead to doubt. The doubt steals away the trust in Jesus, turns strong belief into brain-knowledge and causes deep depression for the majority (!) of all JWs. Some of the family-members in my congregations committed suicide, either from the effect of feeling totally unworthy, or from the consequences of being shunned.

So I feel an urgent responsibility to tell you and the dear gentlemen above, that most of the JWs who might come to your door are very humble, and many had the same believes as you have today, but were mislead by that cult. They are told that they must try to convince you that they will be the only people who will survive Armageddon, the coming of Christ. (See Ephesians 4:4,5,13 - " one faith" and "unity of the faith".) Failure of witnessing brings blood guilt ( see Ezekiel 33:8,9).

Thus the children of JWs don't participate in any other activities with peers than the drill from the Watchtower. Hard working men give up good jobs in favor for part time jobs in order to have more time to knock at your door. They are convinced that what they do is pleasing God and shows love to you as their neighbors. So please (!) don't treat them disrespectfully at your door. When they come home, they will rejoice about one kind word that they might have heard in a whole week during their preaching.

Now, regarding your question:
If I had been the JW at your door, I would have made a "return visit" as soon as possible in order to further the implanted doubt against your old beliefs. I was trained to ask you then further, to whom Jesus had prayed all the time when He is one with God? Why did He say that not His will, but the Father's shall be done in the prayer in the garden?
More confusing, when He died and only rose on the third day, does that mean that God (if Jesus is seen as God) did not exist for those days in between? ("I and the Father are one." - John 10:30)
As a little salt to my speech I would have mentioned the question, how it could be that Jesus said , "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) If He died and only rose from the dead on the third day, then how could He promise to be in Paradise with the thief "today" ??? I would then go on and answer this minor question in order to make you see how smart the Warchtower is, and that only this religion will give you all true answers. The solution is, that the Greek original did not have punctuation, and that all translations of the bible, except their own NWT, set the comma wrong. In their translation it reads, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."

Now Brother Mike's explanations come indeed very close to JWs. Some dear gentleman before also stated that they mistranslated key verses so that it appears logical that Jesus can't be God. It would fill page after page to show you all the wrong translated verses. I wrote them down for myself. But to cut it short, they claim to have put the Tetragrammaton YHWH into all the right verses of the NT, where it is obvious that not Jesus, but The Father (Jehovah) is addressed. Except some rare quotes (e.g. Acts 2:21 cited from Joel 2:32) from the OT, that is simply a wrong translation. The Greek NT uses Kyrios without distinction for both The Father and (!) The Son, i.e. for Jehovah and Jesus! And that is not without reason, in my opinion, because Jesus is God.

The very important key verse in Phil.2:6 is wrongly translated this way: "[Christ Jesus] who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure namely, that he should be equal to God."
You see the difference?

Next time, dear Allen, when a JW comes to you, PLEASE ask him to bring his own Watchtower " Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures". Then let him open John 14:14, and ask him to read aloud the English word-by-word translation of the Greek. He will read: (Jesus is speaking) " if ever anything you should ask me (!) in the name of me this I shall do." Then let him look to the right side, where the NWT in English simply skips the "me". Ask him why they left it out. It will begin to show you and him that there might be something wrong in their understanding, because this verse tells us to ask Jesus directly, and that He will do it for us!! Hence He must be God, for Psalm 65:2 states that only God is the hearer of prayers.

Sorry for that overlong post. I think I can't answer your question sufficiently neither, but so you know a little about Watchtower tactics.

May God bless you, dear brother.
Love, Rose

 

[Free]

Great points, Rose.

 

[Brother Mike]

allenwynne

The Jehovahs' Witnesses are at the heart of the question since they were the ones to pose the question to me.
I had no answer so I put it on the forum.
What I see is people unwittingly in agreement with them.

If that is the only opposition that you have heard then it makes sense. I like to mess with JW's when they come over, I do my best to keep them long as possible to ask question they can't answer.
The real debate started back in 1522 when Erasmus was asked to add the comma to the 3rd edition of the received text by which the KJV gets it's Greek translation from. Erasmus would not at first because it was all based around this trinity doctrine which Jerome did not included or any older writings. This trinity concept shows up earliest recorded in the 14th century without text support until the comma magically just shows up with one other piece of Greek text that many believe along with Erasmus thought were forgery's. To keep the peace, Erasmus added it to the 3rd edition as the war waged over the trinity concept. All the comma did (book of John) was add the Father, Holy Spirit , son are one. This had never been found before or since but in these two suspect manuscripts and some believe it to be a forgery to support a trinity doctrine that was a false doctrine.

So the JW's who are confused came much later and grabbed just parts of the argument to make up their own junk. Many churches do not believe in the Trinity concept because like myself that no matter how you slice it, if there is just "ONE" God, then all the rest are just 1/3 of a God. Math is still math not matter if your talking religion or doing accounting. Trinity believes there are 3 in One. Many find this is disrespect making Jesus not fully God on His own who has always been with the Father. Trinity believes you need 3 to make a god, no matter how fancy you word it.
So there is a belief outside the false views of the JW's, that started way back and has been debated up until today. I would not even consider JW's arguments valid.

Free:

It isn't nearly as simply as you think it is. What you are doing, as every other anti-trinitarian does, is precisely what I have mentioned now twice. You are taking verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture, putting verses that speak of Jesus' humanity over and above those that clearly speak of his deity, without any justification for doing so.

No, I don't take scripture out of context. Trinity has to say Jesus was human to fit their belief system. Trinity believes there is one God. Jesus was God in the flesh, who operated under the Power of the Holy Spirit (Trinity's other 1/3 God) much like we have to operate. Being stuck in a Flesh body though did not erase his eternity with the Father previously. Even at age 12 He said I must be about my Fathers business clearly indicating though Human, He is not confused about who He is, or where He came from. He also came knowing His authority over physical things, and said we can be like him but not greater. So Jesus is clearly different, and God in the flesh, and the Son of God.

Even so...............

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

One God, One throne. No mention of the other 1/3 part of God's throne the Holy Spirit has no throne. This is not Jesus being Human, this is Jesus telling us His Father has a throne and He has a throne. One God needs only one throne. Religious things should not make one forget simple math. I have lots more if you want to really go this route and accuse someone of taking scripture out of context which I take the Word as you do very seriously.

So if on earth a Father and son are washing a car together as one with the same goal, and you were asked how many humans there, I hope you would say two. When You and I get to Heaven and see the Son sitting on the right hand of his father and someone asked you how many God's you see sitting there, I hope you don't embarrasses me and say.... 1 um 2.... ummm... 1 and 2... umm.. I count one.


I am dropping out of this topic as it's gone way past the simple question and out of respect of the Web site believing in a Trinity concept. Trinity or JW should not even been in the equation but just believe what Jesus said and only a few post long.

Mike.

 

[Free]

Free:

It isn't nearly as simply as you think it is. What you are doing, as every other anti-trinitarian does, is precisely what I have mentioned now twice. You are taking verses out of the context of the entirety of Scripture, putting verses that speak of Jesus' humanity over and above those that clearly speak of his deity, without any justification for doing so.

No, I don't take scripture out of context.

Sure you do. You have taken a couple of verses which, taken on their own, ignoring what the Bible says elsewhere, appear to show that Jesus couldn't have been truly God. The NT shows in other passages that Jesus is truly God, some of which you even posted yourself as though they refuted the deity of Jesus. You simply cannot brush those aside.

Trinity has to say Jesus was human to fit their belief system.

No, the doctrine of the Trinity affirms the humanity of Jesus because it is plainly stated in Scripture. He was born of a woman and therefore truly man. That Jesus was truly man is a given. That point has never been under contention in the history of the Church, as far as I know, apart from Gnosticism, of course.

Trinity believes there is one God. Jesus was God in the flesh, who operated under the Power of the Holy Spirit (Trinity's other 1/3 God) much like we have to operate. Being stuck in a Flesh body though did not erase his eternity with the Father previously. Even at age 12 He said I must be about my Fathers business clearly indicating though Human, He is not confused about who He is, or where He came from. He also came knowing His authority over physical things, and said we can be like him but not greater. So Jesus is clearly different, and God in the flesh, and the Son of God.

Other than incorrectly stating that the persons of the Trinity are each 1/3 God, I don't know what you're saying.

Even so...............

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

One God, One throne. No mention of the other 1/3 part of God's throne the Holy Spirit has no throne. This is not Jesus being Human, this is Jesus telling us His Father has a throne and He has a throne. One God needs only one throne. Religious things should not make one forget simple math. I have lots more if you want to really go this route and accuse someone of taking scripture out of context which I take the Word as you do very seriously.

And simple math has what to do with the nature of God? What about complex math? Math has nothing to do with it. Scripture says what it does and we cannot simply pick and choose which verses we want to believe.

So if on earth a Father and son are washing a car together as one with the same goal, and you were asked how many humans there, I hope you would say two. When You and I get to Heaven and see the Son sitting on the right hand of his father and someone asked you how many God's you see sitting there, I hope you don't embarrasses me and say.... 1 um 2.... ummm... 1 and 2... umm.. I count one.

There is only one God. I have made it very clear that that is precisely what the doctrine of the Trinity affirms and why it best takes into account all that the Scriptures reveal about God. And of course throughout this discussion you have ignored many of the points that are being made which show the Trinity to be true. I'll post some of them again:

Here is the overall difficulty regarding understanding the nature of God:

1. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly man.
2. The Bible shows that Jesus is truly God.
3. The Bible shows that the Father is God.
4. The Bible shows that Jesus is the Son, who is separate and distinct from the Father.
5. The Bible shows that there is only one God.

This is in part what the doctrine of the Trinity attempts to make sense of. Indeed, any Christology and theology proper must make sense of all those points without forcing one to be subject to another.

I am dropping out of this topic as it's gone way past the simple question and out of respect of the Web site believing in a Trinity concept. Trinity or JW should not even been in the equation but just believe what Jesus said and only a few post long.

Mike.

Again, the whole topic is about responding the JW's incorrect understanding of the verse in question which they use to try and prove the deity of Jesus and the Trinity false. That is the topic. It is impossible to even begin to discuss this if we leave out the doctrine of the Trinity and what JW's believe.

And there is no need to leave the discussion. We've had many discussions in the past on the deity of Jesus and the Trinity.

 

[Maedchen]

Dear all,

I just want to add one more thing, hoping not to bore you.
While I was reading through this long thread, it was very obvious to me that each and everyone of you take their belief very seriously. Everyone struggles to understand those difficult questions.
But my message to you is, that you please would be so kind as to consider that "God is love" (1.John 4:8).
So even if you disagree with the other's view, please don't let it come to the extend that is practiced by JWs!
Only because our mind finds something more logic than the other person's mind, does not make that other person an apostate, liar or betrayer.

In order that you understand the very negative outcome of such a controlling manner, I post a link here, where you can watch what I told you above:

http://youtu.be/fcIC4g5tulw

Love, Rose

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I get the feeling your not actually reading what I have posted. I am still wondering what the JW's believe have anything to do with the question.

The Jehovahs' Witnesses are at the heart of the question since they were the ones to pose the question to me.
I had no answer so I put it on the forum.
What I see is people unwittingly in agreement with them.

Titus 2:13;

"while we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

Christs' 2nd appearing will be of God's "glory" as the 1st was of His "grace".
Then Jesus will be openly manifested not only as "our Savior" but also in all the glory of His majesty or greatness as "God". This is divine glory.

Dear Allen,

I just managed to finish reading the whole thread. As I am a bit slow in reading and understanding, I might not have everything in my mind now that has already been said. But since you are interested in answering the question that JWs spoke to you, I simply have to contribute a little here.

As you know, half a year ago I was one of those JWs who knocked at the doors and asked people this and similar questions. We were very well trained to do so. In fact, we have learned " conversation starters" and effective replies to " conversation stoppers". The drill in the Watchtower Organization is highly controlled, the effectiveness of members is written down and laziness in the preaching work is punished with being disciplined. The words I used in my own 'field service' were trained in every meeting. They are tailored to make the most possible impact in a few seconds, because that is usually the time that people in their homes gave us to speak before saying that they are not interested. So it is no wonder, dear Allen, that this question remained in your thoughts, and it is no wonder that it leads to arguing. It is meant to get stuck in your mind, as the Governing Body of JWs ( the leaders in Brooklyn, NY) made their homework over the years and put all effectiveness of modern psychology into their teachings, which consists mostly of questions that lead to doubt. The doubt steals away the trust in Jesus, turns strong belief into brain-knowledge and causes deep depression for the majority (!) of all JWs. Some of the family-members in my congregations committed suicide, either from the effect of feeling totally unworthy, or from the consequences of being shunned.

So I feel an urgent responsibility to tell you and the dear gentlemen above, that most of the JWs who might come to your door are very humble, and many had the same believes as you have today, but were mislead by that cult. They are told that they must try to convince you that they will be the only people who will survive Armageddon, the coming of Christ. (See Ephesians 4:4,5,13 - " one faith" and "unity of the faith".) Failure of witnessing brings blood guilt ( see Ezekiel 33:8,9).

Thus the children of JWs don't participate in any other activities with peers than the drill from the Watchtower. Hard working men give up good jobs in favor for part time jobs in order to have more time to knock at your door. They are convinced that what they do is pleasing God and shows love to you as their neighbors. So please (!) don't treat them disrespectfully at your door. When they come home, they will rejoice about one kind word that they might have heard in a whole week during their preaching.

Now, regarding your question:
If I had been the JW at your door, I would have made a "return visit" as soon as possible in order to further the implanted doubt against your old beliefs. I was trained to ask you then further, to whom Jesus had prayed all the time when He is one with God? Why did He say that not His will, but the Father's shall be done in the prayer in the garden?
More confusing, when He died and only rose on the third day, does that mean that God (if Jesus is seen as God) did not exist for those days in between? ("I and the Father are one." - John 10:30)
As a little salt to my speech I would have mentioned the question, how it could be that Jesus said , "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) If He died and only rose from the dead on the third day, then how could He promise to be in Paradise with the thief "today" ??? I would then go on and answer this minor question in order to make you see how smart the Warchtower is, and that only this religion will give you all true answers. The solution is, that the Greek original did not have punctuation, and that all translations of the bible, except their own NWT, set the comma wrong. In their translation it reads, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."

Now Brother Mike's explanations come indeed very close to JWs. Some dear gentleman before also stated that they mistranslated key verses so that it appears logical that Jesus can't be God. It would fill page after page to show you all the wrong translated verses. I wrote them down for myself. But to cut it short, they claim to have put the Tetragrammaton YHWH into all the right verses of the NT, where it is obvious that not Jesus, but The Father (Jehovah) is addressed. Except some rare quotes (e.g. Acts 2:21 cited from Joel 2:32) from the OT, that is simply a wrong translation. The Greek NT uses Kyrios without distinction for both The Father and (!) The Son, i.e. for Jehovah and Jesus! And that is not without reason, in my opinion, because Jesus is God.

The very important key verse in Phil.2:6 is wrongly translated this way: "[Christ Jesus] who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure namely, that he should be equal to God."
You see the difference?

Next time, dear Allen, when a JW comes to you, PLEASE ask him to bring his own Watchtower " Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures". Then let him open John 14:14, and ask him to read aloud the English word-by-word translation of the Greek. He will read: (Jesus is speaking) " if ever anything you should ask me (!) in the name of me this I shall do." Then let him look to the right side, where the NWT in English simply skips the "me". Ask him why they left it out. It will begin to show you and him that there might be something wrong in their understanding, because this verse tells us to ask Jesus directly, and that He will do it for us!! Hence He must be God, for Psalm 65:2 states that only God is the hearer of prayers.

Sorry for that overlong post. I think I can't answer your question sufficiently neither, but so you know a little about Watchtower tactics.

May God bless you, dear brother.
Love, Rose[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much Rose, no, this post is not too long.
You've added a breath of fresh air that comes directly from God.
You are his prophet directing us to His love.

Thank you, Allen:angel3

 

[Guest]

John 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him. I believe Jesus is speaking about the characteristics of the Father when he says 'known me' and 'seen him'. Because since the Holy Spirit dwelled inside of Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes from the Father, 1+1=2. The Holy Spirit is in fact the characteristics of the Father. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. However, John 14:7 says nothing about Jesus obtaining all the knowledge, wisdom and glory. What does everyone think.

 

[Guest]

I think you have it right. If you know Jesus, you know the Father, for all that Jesus had he was given by the Father.

Notice you said given by. Good post Edward.

 

[Elijah674]

As the second Adam this was true. As Christ of the OT before He became the Son, this is not the case. Acts 7
[38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

After Eve & Adam sinned it was Christ alone as the Godhead allowed satan his chance to prove that he was evil to the core. The Holy Spirit was limited until Christ went back to heaven and was accepted as faithful! (see John 20:17)

--Elijah