Why Didn't Jesus Know Everything?

[jasoncran]

ok let me ask you this.if the YHWH isn't the son then whom is he? if he is the father then how could jesus then say NO man hath seen the father nor his shape. when moses did see the glory of GOD? jesus must be equal to and also separate from the father.

 

[jasoncran]

remember that jesus lowered himself and the trinity isn't three gods but three persons as one god. the analogy of free and wip about the wedding feast is perfect.How could jesus claim to be the first and the last, and also the alpha and the omega when the YHWH claims the same?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I think they are. I believe they are of the same spirit, but certainly have different personalities and each think as different beings.

James 4:12;

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Psalm 68:19;

Praise be to the Lord, to God our savior...

Titus 2:13;

while we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,...

As you can see, there is only one that can save us, it is our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Part of our faith is to believe that Jesus is the one and only true God.
Anything else is a heresy.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

James 4:12;

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Psalm 68:19;

Praise be to the Lord, to God our savior...

Titus 2:13;

while we wait for the blessed hope---the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,...

As you can see, there is only one that can save us, it is our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Part of our faith is to believe that Jesus is the one and only true God.
Anything else is a heresy.

So are you saying that there is no father? Jesus spoke of him, I just read it today:

John 13:2-3

The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus. 3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;

I for one, will never claim to have all the answers.
But the Jews knew that the Messiah would save them and that the Messiah would be God and that there is only one God.
If we fail to understand things along the way, we should not be surprised.
But there is only one God, and true christianity is believing that Jesus is that one God.
Again I say, anything else is a heresy.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, allenwynne.the shemah yisreal doesn't negate the idea of the trinity.

 

[Brother Mike]

jasoncran

remember that jesus lowered himself and the trinity isn't three gods but three persons as one god. the analogy of free and wip about the wedding feast is perfect.How could jesus claim to be the first and the last, and also the alpha and the omega when the YHWH claims the same?

Thank you Jason. I am seeing different definitions of Trinity here which just confuses the issue.

The website here says God manifested in 3 different personalities so to speak. So One God, with split personalities. The whole concept of Trinity normally points to Just "ONE" God. Some like to say there is ONE GOD with 3 personalities. It's the same God with a personality disorder. Some say it's One God made up of 3 different entities. This way they can smooth over some of the inconsistencies. Different and separate entities that make "ONE" God.

If you just scratch all that, and say there are Two, a Father and a Son. Then you have a Father saying let us make man in our Image to his son that was always with him.
God is our Saviour in the OT, as He sent His son to save us. (I can back that with scriptures)

Jason:

ok let me ask you this.if the YHWH isn't the son then whom is he? if he is the father then how could jesus then say NO man hath seen the father nor his shape. when moses did see the glory of GOD? jesus must be equal to and also separate from the father.

Mat_11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Both would be the I Am, as Both are everything the comprises everything. God the father creator and God the son the Father of eternal life.

So if you have two, and not One made up of 3 parts. (Remember God always took ownership of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit has no throne)

If there are Two, then all scripture contradictions are cleared up. We don't need different versions of Trinity anymore. Both The I Am, Both God, Both here from the start. Two thrones for 2 Gods.

We know who the Father called down saying this is my son, whom I am well pleased.
We know Jesus is the Father of Eternity, or eternal life by many scriptures.
We know there is ONE God and ONE advocate (Mediator) the Lord Jesus (Who is also God)
We know the term God is just generic such as theos so both can be God. (Satan was also called theos, but just a disobedient angel)
We know the Word was with God, and was God the same. Both Word and God carry the same as God is defined by the Word.
We know the Word was made flesh (As spoken to come to pass, not that Jesus is the literal Word, but His Words, the Word begotten in Mary.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Made of a women, Flesh, blood and water. Not the literal Word.

We know the Father and Son operate as one, as we are one in Jesus, but being one in Jesus does not make us the Father. (According to Trinity concept we are also the Father God)
We are born of the Word also, but through Jesus, so Jesus is the only begotten of the Word through the Father personally (Just flesh birth, Jesus has no creation date). (Trinity concept would also make us God the father)
The eternal Godhead comprises of all ruling authority which we are the Godhead bodily. Trinity removes man from the family.

So if you make Jesus the Son of God, and person not a part of a God machine then all scriptures line up. It's when you smash 3 of them and call it One God, that is where we run into lots of questions and contradictions. We have absolutely no contradictions When Jesus becomes His own God and not some 1/3 piece of a god.

So, If Jesus said only His father knows, then scripture is scripture, is scripture and we need to take his Word on that.

If you believe in some "trinity" concept, then fine, but the question was how did not Jesus also know when he was coming? Your concept should not get in the way of what is simple.

How the heck can a simple question answered by simple scriptures become so complicated? Jesus said He does not know, just believe what the Lord says! This is religion for you.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Edward:

Seems simple to me. There may be aspects of it which we can not grasp while in the flesh, but a simple faith and patience is all we need and all will be revealed in time,

I have to sign up for this one also Edward. Jesus said He does not know, good enough for me. How it got into all these different versions of "trinity" and what JW's believe is hard to fathom. It actually had me confused, because I don't really understand what each person believes that posted. I am a scripture person, so I need to see scripture. So a scripture where we find out Jesus does know when He comes back would be fine, otherwise I have to stick with the Last Words about it from the Head of the Church, and those words was that He does not know.

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

My apologies for not reading the thread before comment as I know this to be poor form. Yet, the concept seems to naturally flow from the fact that Jesus is a man and that he is born in the flesh. He was tempted in every way like as we. Now, it just seems to me that if he were not a man and had some non-human power that was at his disposal and his alone? Then the omniscient one, knowing all things, is no longer "in the flesh" and not able to be tempted "like as we".

But what if that Man, who is the Son of God, is also "man" like me? Is there a conundrum? I see that there is. Is it an unsolvable conundrum? Perhaps not. Although I do not claim to have the answer, and again I'm just talking from what I think, not specifically backing up every thought through direct Scriptural evidence, it does seem that there could be a way out of the dilemma that arises when we consider such thing. What if we understood that upon this man, upon this flesh, was given the honor of having the Spirit of God poured out upon him without measure?

Those who have tried to contemplate infinity may find it difficult to fully appreciate the implication of that thought but this could be what Jesus meant when he said that Nobody sees the Father except through Him. He alone is the one who walked without spot nor blemish. Upon him only might be the Spirit Holy. He is the "Anointed One," is he not? And this anointing, this is also the very Spirit of God. This is such a critical issue that God Himself testified of His son. He never honored any other like that. Not angels, no other. Only of Jesus was it said, "... my son, in whom I am well pleased." My thought goes to the holy nature of God. It recalls the testimony of Isaiah and his self-pronounced woe: "Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips."

Isaiah, a Prophet who spoke forth the Word of God faithfully, who was similar to our "Statesman" and "Ambassador" position, who spoke before royalty and before others in highest office, cursed himself and by his own prophetic word pronounced a woe upon his own flesh when confronted with the Holiness of Him who is "Holy, holy, holy." So then, if this Holy Spirit, who is utterly apart from all sin, if it is by this that Jesus is a Prophet, speaking boldly the Word of God, if it is by this action, this indwelling that the Power and the Gift of The Father is demonstrated, is he not yet flesh? And therein is the secret.

This is the goal that we are to press in toward, that we may be like Him, our Christ, Jesus. This is the Promise of the Father enabled so that Jesus is now seen at the Right Hand of God interceding for us. Knowing what it is like to be in our position, clothed in flesh, fully man. And when did this Jesus, the Christ arise to heaven where he remains to this day? It was right after he spoke to his apostles saying, "Tarry in Jerusalem" and then going on to explain, "For you shall receive power..."

They waited on the Lord. There was supplication and they sought with one mind the Gift of God. Then that day, was given unto men, this same Gift that another Prophet, the one known as Joel spoke of and prophesied about. The Baptism of the Spirit Holy, this very Anointing that caused Jesus to be The Christ was spread abroad upon the flesh of men, according to Prophecy and according to the now fulfilled promise of God.

Unto us has been given the power to become Sons of God and to have revealed the truth of what the Lord Jesus, our Christ has taught. That too is a function of the Breath or Spirit of God. He is called "The Teacher" and "The Counselor". It is my belief that all who appear before God and ask for Wisdom are actually asking that they too might receive in part this very Gift, this Spirit Holy who is the Ancient of Day and the found inside the flesh that walked with us.

 

[Free]

jasoncran

good luck trying to understand the trinity. I say that as I was once a non-Trinitarian.

Thank you Jason, I trust you know what is going on about this thread and I now assume it's about protecting some Doctrine called the "Trinity" I am just the opposite. I use to be trinitarian, and only by something the Holy Spirit said to me made me check into things more. We often just run with the pace without question, and my Church does believe in this "Trinity" concept.

Jesus is the Word of God, Jesus is God, is what I always said and one day I was thanking Jesus for something, then said excuse me your God and felt sort of awkward calling Jesus God. He is the Father God After all that came in flesh. The Lord ask then, "Do you know who I am?, I am not my Father." It was one of those Holy Spirit moments where just a few words and all the blanks are filled in seconds that would have taken years to put together. If Jesus is a split personality of God, or just a different manifestation of "ONE" God then we have no advocate. Unless God just argues with a 1/3 of himself.

If there is a Son of God, then there are two thrones seated by God the Son, and God the Father. The son came for us, by whom all things were made.

So, being a scripture person I see that.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


Jesus does not know, I can't find another scripture saying He knows when later and..................

Joh_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, so I have scriptural comparison that the Father knows things the Son does not yet. These are scriptures, not some doctrine. To say Jesus does know, would be to say Jesus Lied. To say Jesus found out later would be to say that 1/3 Part of God is not keeping up on things and I am sure Trinity folk won't say that. They have to go into a Jesus was flesh theory, but Jesus was still God in the flesh so that won't wash either.

To which I reiterate:

Phil 2:5-8 is absolutely key in understanding the nature of Jesus.

JW's, like every anti-trinitarian I've had discussions with, pit the humanity of Christ against his deity. They pit passages of Scripture speaking of his humanity, which no trinitarian denies, against those passages which clearly speak of his deity. And then they choose to reinterpret the passages speaking of his deity to mean something else, without any warrant for doing so. They turn Jesus' nature it into an either/or when it is really a both/and.

Just as the trinitarian should not ignore or reinterpret those passages speaking of Jesus' humanity in favor of those speaking of his deity, neither should the anti-trinitarian ignore or reinterpret those passages speaking of Jesus' deity in favor of those speaking of his humanity. Both are equal in error.

If there are Two, then all scripture contradictions are cleared up. We don't need different versions of Trinity anymore. Both The I Am, Both God, Both here from the start. Two thrones for 2 Gods.

This is polytheism, which clearly goes against the Bible.

It's when you smash 3 of them and call it One God, that is where we run into lots of questions and contradictions. We have absolutely no contradictions When Jesus becomes His own God and not some 1/3 piece of a god.

Come again? "We have absolutely no contradictions when Jesus becomes his own God"? Are you sure you want to use that argument?

And to suggest that Jesus is a "1/3 piece of a god" shows that you do not understand the Trinity.

So, If Jesus said only His father knows, then scripture is scripture, is scripture and we need to take his Word on that.

Everybody is taking his Word on that.

If you believe in some "trinity" concept, then fine, but the question was how did not Jesus also know when he was coming? Your concept should not get in the way of what is simple.

How is the nature of God simple? How is the nature of God in human flesh simple? I will answer your question with a question: If Jesus is his own God (contradiction), as you previously stated, how can he not know when he was going to return? Your concept is much less simple.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free

Thank you Free, I see vibrancy in your post and conviction. First you have to forgive any ignorance on my part as those that believe in some "Trinity" do not defend it well. More than once I was led to believe Jesus is some part of a egg white, the egg being God with pictures and everything. That is not your fault for such crazy explanations I have gotten in the past.

I also have to admit I don't understand your position very well, or the mention of JW's who believe Jesus was some angel or something. You did mention this however.

This is polytheism, which clearly goes against the Bible.

I assume that is a belief in multiple Gods.

Isa_45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Very clear here that there is only one creator. God also said he made no other gods like him nor is there another. This would clearly hurt any position on polytheism, unless we have a misunderstanding of the Word "G.O.D" Often you find man defines God as they believe as a god should be despite any scripture saying otherwise. This is problematic when trying to understand exactly who Jesus is, and who God is and just exactly who we are.

How is the nature of God simple? How is the nature of God in human flesh simple? I will answer your question with a question: If Jesus is his own God (contradiction), as you previously stated, how can he not know when he was going to return? Your concept is much less simple.

Your concept of a "GOD" is that a god must know everything. Clearly Had God known he would have never repented (sigh, or sorrowful) that He made Saul King. He would not have "Found" iniquity in a perfect angelic being that turned on Him, Nor would he grieved his own Heart having to drown mankind. Twice in scripture He goes down to look to see what is going on. So we have a nature here about God this is ignored as man wants God to be what he wants God to be.

What God hears on the throne are cries. This is OT of course and there is instant connection by the Holy Spirit but at a time He picked things up from Heaven, the earth being mans.

Exo_22:23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

(I suggest doing a study on Hear cry and cries)


Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God hears the cries, it sounds grievous so he Has to go down to actually check to know something.

Who is faithful in little (another mans) more is given. Promotion comes with being faithful for God knows the heart. It's not God planing or knowing something ahead of time but by your actions. for God said choose death or life. He said nothing about him choosing or knowing for us as it's recorded. Jesus also repeated the same thing by which we give account for every idle word we say.

Concerning Abraham who was faithful.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God knows man by mans response to him. We see God make the right choice but man does always stay with the plan such as Eli.

So we enter into the realm of the possibility by scriptures that it's Possible to be a "G.O.D" and not know everything. What God knows is what He declares, for each have a set path, and the Word set to the end by the Word. How each man plays in that is mans choice.

God the generic term:

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Here we are told to think such as Jesus, and Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God. He was a form of God made in the likeness of man. We are told that we are homoiōma (James) or likeness of God, Jesus became the likeness of man. It's very clear to me that Jesus was God long before he came to be a man. So we have the term God (Theos) It's a class of something and not a person unless defined. It literally means deity of unknown affinity. Rightly so, because Satan a disobedient angel was also called Theos.

This makes theos a generic deity class, unless defined. Jesus also called us theos or as they were about to stone him for claiming to be the son of God, He reminded them they were no different in class then He was being made in the likeness of God.

So Satan is called god, we are called god, Thomas, John and God the Father call Jesus God, we are suppose to think like Jesus being equal with God. It gets sort of confusing for some if you don't define the class.

Paul clears this up.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
I assume there must have been some type of teaching going around about us being gods, like God because of nature as we are immortal (Heaven, Hell we live on) Eph says we have family in Earth and Heaven so plenty "Called" gods here. Satan was also called god.

Paul says there are only two we recognize as God.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I failed High school math but I do know 1+1=2. Notice the Holy Spirit not mentioned here or ever mentioned as being God.

The one Creator God made everything for His Son:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God the Father did not appoint himself heir, He gave it all to his Son. The KJV screws up the word "DIA" in two places making Jesus the creator then contradicts itself here. However, most modern translations get it right. (Remember, the KJV fully supported the 3rd edition Greek text and believed in Trinity so it would have been right to them anyway)

There is one creator, and that is our Father in Heaven who Jesus said was greater than Him. Jesus only said and did what the Father said do on Earth. That means TWO!

YLT: Good enough translation. I normally only use the KJV.
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

YLT:
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

These now match the Heb account in the KJV. How you translate one Greek word can make Jesus the Creator, but if Creator then not a heir as it's all His anyway.

So I stand my position with scriptures and I have lots more in case there is some confusion. God made all things for and through His Son. It pleased God to crucify His Son, and God has not told His son when He his sending him back.

Every single scripture must match every other scripture in a simple way as God is not the author of confusion.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

Mark 13:32;

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father".

If Jesus was really God, then why didn't he know this?

This is a Jehovah's Witness rebuttal question.

Any help here?

Who do the Jehovah Witnesses say that He (Jesus) is?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't know how this turned into a trinity debate.
Also, I never doubt that Jesus is God.
God uses the human Jesus and the Holy Spirit as ways to express himself to us for we do not understand the concept of God.

Think of this;

When we are with our son, we are a father.
When we are with our father, we are a son.
When we are with friends, we are a friend.
etc, etc, etc,...

We are always one person being expressed in different ways.
Jesus was a human being that was indwelled by the true living God in a way no other human has or will be.

He is the son in every way except his spirit is the one and only true God.
Revelation chapter 5 shows Jesus standing on the throne of God being worshiped as God.

There are not separate Gods and there are not 1/3 of Gods.
They are one being expressed in a way that we can understand.

Only God can judge us yet Jesus judges us to be righteous.

 

[Randy]

I don't know how this turned into a trinity debate.
Also, I never doubt that Jesus is God.
God uses the human Jesus and the Holy Spirit as ways to express himself to us for we do not understand the concept of God.

Think of this;

When we are with our son, we are a father.
When we are with our father, we are a son.
When we are with friends, we are a friend.
etc, etc, etc,...

We are always one person being expressed in different ways.
Jesus was a human being that was indwelled by the true living God in a way no other human has or will be.

He is the son in every way except his spirit is the one and only true God.
Revelation chapter 5 shows Jesus standing on the throne of God being worshiped as God.

There are not separate Gods and there are not 1/3 of Gods.
They are one being expressed in a way that we can understand.

Only God can judge us yet Jesus judges us to be righteous.

I googled my question so I have my answer. I don't agree with their teaching. (JW's)

You wrote:
He is the son in every way except his spirit is the one and only true God.

I don't agree with that teaching. I do agree that the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. The Father in the Son. The Son in the Father. In that manner they are One.

But I have no need to debate the trinity either.

Randy

 

[Brother Mike]

allenwynne

I don't know how this turned into a trinity debate.

It is amazing.

Mike.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't agree with that teaching. I do agree that the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. The Father in the Son. The Son in the Father. In that manner they are One.

This sounds like you believe in 2 Gods or one God and one lesser god.

Either way, you are right. You cannot debate it since it goes against the forums' SOF.

 

[smaller]

JW's, like every anti-trinitarian I've had discussions with, pit the humanity of Christ against his deity. They pit passages of Scripture speaking of his humanity, which no trinitarian denies, against those passages which clearly speak of his deity. And then they choose to reinterpret the passages speaking of his deity to mean something else, without any warrant for doing so. They turn Jesus' nature it into an either/or when it is really a both/and.

I believe I turned this conversation into a Trinitarian discussion because some use the apparent 'surface conflict' on the statements of scripture being handled into a FALSE VIEW that Jesus was not fully God, that being that only God the Father knows some things while Jesus didn't.

I would ditto your statement above. Every anti-Trinitarian bungles these exact texts and tries to DIVIDE Jesus the Son from God the Father.

This was the exact ground that was debated within early Christianity when Marcion tried to eradicate the Old Testament Word of God from the New Testament Word of Jesus. These types of controversies made others sit up and pay attention to the details and also led to the formalization of the scriptures.

IN this particular example we see these statements:

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Such viewers take the statements above as some kind of proof that Jesus *as the SON only* didn't know.

But Jesus didn't present Himself as *the Son only.*

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Trying to DIVIDE the members of the Trinity, one from another, in any way, remains a basic heresy and foul against sound theology.

(not directed toward you free, obviously.)

s

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

ok, allenwynne.the shemah yisreal doesn't negate the idea of the trinity.

This is how I use to say it;

Sh'ma Yisrael, Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu
Adonai Echad, Adonai Tsidkenu, Adonai Yeshua Teinu
Baruch Shem K'vod Malchuto L'Olam Va'Ed

 

[Brother Mike]

Smaller:

Such viewers take the statements above as some kind of proof that Jesus *as the SON only* didn't know.

But Jesus didn't present Himself as *the Son only.*

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

If not the son only, then Jesus would know the day and hour. Your explanation does not make sense.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one

Trinity concept of understanding scriptures................. Jesus and the father are one. That makes Jesus his own father, or ONE God concept by this means of interpretation. However as all bad doctrines, trinity can't stay consistent in it's interpretation, otherwise you run into issues, so the doctrine has to "IGNORE" other scriptures.

Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

According to staying consistent with Word translation according to "trinity" doctrine we are also one in the father and son, making us also God the creator. Bad doctrines have to pick and choose scriptures, leaving others out with no consistency.

I can assure you, I am not the creator but I am one in My Father and my Lord Jesus. I also do my best to stay consistent in scriptures. We all just know in part.

I can take this one scripture and about 5 others and make a doctrine that says we are actually God the eternal creator. I would have to ignore others of course but the concept is the same.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

Edward:

I agree with Mike. We are one with the Father, but that doesn't make us God, or the creator. Think of it this way. A man and wife are one, as would be the children. But they have separate personalities and the husband can know things that the wife or son do not. The depth of this truth surely goes deeper than this, and yet it is sort of simple.

Thank you Edward. We certainly do not see clearly or understand all that is in Heaven. To understand eternal things clearly we need to be there and out of this flesh body. I could be wrong, and so can everyone else once we are explained what went on before the creation of the Earth. We are given parts, and know in parts.

For those defending Trinity. I have some advice.

Don't come off arrogant, or as you know. That is what gets my attention personally. Any arrogance that ignores other scriptures. The Trinity doctrine by their own belief call it a mystery or correctly "The Mystery of Christian faith"

It's something you just believe by faith. No questioning it and those most stout in the doctrine will tell you don't try to defend it with scriptures because you will come out sounding like a loon. It can't be defended by scriptures, so that is why the language of the doctrine itself contains a mystery. If you believe that such as my Church, then fine, but don't come off as arrogant or assuming people hold the JW belief's. You won't survive a scripture debate with someone that knows the Word very well. The best you can do is cancel out what Jesus said because He was "Flesh" at the time and pick certain scriptures while leaving others. Jesus was still God in the flesh on earth so you have no ammo for some of his comments. You have to come to terms with that.

I don't pick on people at my Church, I love them. If they believe in Trinity then so what. I don't like arrogance though and being put in categories. You can't defend trinity with scripture and the ones that set fourth the doctrine explained it's a mystery because it makes sense to them. That is all that is needed, you just believe it. When you come off with "False proven wrong doctrine" and JW's then you better know your scriptures and know them well. People greater than you have already stated the Trinity doctrine is problematic but it still seems true to them. Good enough for me, but arrogance is not good. I don't know everything, and you who believe in Trinity do not know everything.

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Smaller:

Such viewers take the statements above as some kind of proof that Jesus *as the SON only* didn't know.

But Jesus didn't present Himself as *the Son only.*

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

If not the son only, then Jesus would know the day and hour. Your explanation does not make sense.

The classic 'hypostatic union' is the best we are going to muster on this subject.

God in Christ being fully man and fully God.

The statement of Him not knowing as SON while being fully man subjected at the time to flesh and death did not preclude Him knowing as God. The Son spoke as The Father directed.

Trinity concept of understanding scriptures................. Jesus and the father are one. That makes Jesus his own father, or ONE God concept by this means of interpretation.

And that is just another typical attack from the anti-Trin camp.

There are a handful of difficult passages that gives a toe hold to such views.

However as all bad doctrines, trinity can't stay consistent in it's interpretation, otherwise you run into issues, so the doctrine has to "IGNORE" other scriptures.

I'd suggest you have a 'more flawed' understanding. Most who eliminate Trin do so at the expense of tossing out some other limited box of even worse consequence.

Fortunately the early church fathers did a fairly good job of defining these matters and finished off the entire exercise by drawing a non-exiting circle around the whole enchilada and termed it rightfully...

A MYSTERY.

According to staying consistent with Word translation according to "trinity" doctrine we are also one in the father and son, making us also God the creator. Bad doctrines have to pick and choose scriptures, leaving others out with no consistency.

At present, no. IN the fullness of the transaction, yes.

Eventually there will be only God, all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28)

I can assure you, I am not the creator but I am one in My Father and my Lord Jesus. I also do my best to stay consistent in scriptures. We all just know in part.

It's a point of attribution but not a full realization. Just as we reckon ourselves dead, though not really being dead.

I can take this one scripture and about 5 others and make a doctrine that says we are actually God the eternal creator. I would have to ignore others of course but the concept is the same.
Mike.

No, it's just another imperfect spin and not much more than that.

s