Why do we accept or reject Christ Jesus?

[stovebolts]

Actually, not. Rom 9:22 says that the vessels of wrath were 'katartizo'. The word means to "mend, fix, repair, restore", or "retrofitted". And even though my lexicon identifies the word as being in the passive mood, the verb tense of the word is the same for both middle and passive voice.

So, it's entirely possible that the vessels themselves were the cause of being "prepared (retrofitted) for destruction" (middle voice).

What is clear is that God didn't make (create) them for destruction.

However, the next verse does say that the vessels of mercy were prepared in advance for glory.[/user]

That is an interesting take when one narrows down into the verse. But what I find interesting, I believe Paul is running commentary on the Exodus. Pharoh hardened his own heart many time before God hardened his heart, so that pharaohs destruction would be made known, and Gods soverrnty revealed.

God knew from the beginning what was to occur.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is an interesting take when one narrows down into the verse.

It's not my "take" on the verse. It's what the Greek actually says.

But what I find interesting, I believe Paul is running commentary on the Exodus. Pharoh hardened his own heart many time before God hardened his heart, so that pharaohs destruction would be made known, and Gods soverrnty revealed.

Of course.

God knew from the beginning what was to occur.

God is omniscient. Of course.

 

[stovebolts]

It's not my "take" on the verse. It's what the Greek actually says.

One can have many takes on a verse, and I do not oppose the one you posted. Many lexicons can differ depending on how they came

 

[stovebolts]

Actually, not. Rom 9:22 says that the vessels of wrath were 'katartizo'. The word means to "mend, fix, repair, restore", or "retrofitted". And even though my lexicon identifies the word as being in the passive mood, the verb tense of the word is the same for both middle and passive voice.

So, it's entirely possible that the vessels themselves were the cause of being "prepared (retrofitted) for destruction" (middle voice).

What is clear is that God didn't make (create) them for destruction.

However, the next verse does say that the vessels of mercy were prepared in advance for glory.[/user]

The more I ponder the Greek, the more interesting this becomes.

My understanding of retrofit could mean to say something is being repurposed by adding capability and functionality. This, in a sense is to restore something for a different purpose than it's original intent.

What I can glean from this, is that we were created with a divine purpose, and if we willfully put ourselves against God by hardening our hearts, or, as Paul puts it, we sear our conscience, then God can repurpose and retrofit us for destruction when we elevate ourselves in opposition to him.

But I regress as we turn back to the OP, what is it within humanity that we would choose to be like God, which is what Pharoh did. The answer isn't that difficult to answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

The more I ponder the Greek, the more interesting this becomes.

I agree.

My understanding of retrofit could mean to say something is being repurposed by adding capability and functionality. This, in a sense is to restore something for a different purpose than it's original intent.

And, add the real possibility of the middle voice, the person themselves does that.

What I can glean from this, is that we were created with a divine purpose, and if we willfully put ourselves against God by hardening our hearts, or, as Paul puts it, we sear our conscience, then God can repurpose and retrofit us for destruction when we elevate ourselves in opposition to him.

Yes, that would be the passive voice.

But I regress as we turn back to the OP, what is it within humanity that we would choose to be like God, which is what Pharoh did. The answer isn't that difficult to answer.

No, it's not. That was actually the first sin in all of creation. Isa 14:12-14

 

[stovebolts]

I agree.


And, add the real possibility of the middle voice, the person themselves does that.


Yes, that would be the passive voice.


No, it's not. That was actually the first sin in all of creation. Isa 14:12-14

Hmmm, what do you mean by the middle voice and the passive voice? I can infer, but I've never actually understood what those two mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hmmm, what do you mean by the middle voice and the passive voice? I can infer, but I've never actually understood what those two mean.

The active voice means the subject performs, produces, or experiences the action of the verb.
The middle voice means the subject performs or experiences the action expressed by the verb in such a way that emphasizes the subject's participation. iow, the subject acts "with a vested interest".
The passive voice means the subject is acted upon or receives the action epressed by the verb.

From Dan Wallace, Greek Grammar; Beyond the Basics.

 

[gr8grace3]

Actually, not. Rom 9:22 says that the vessels of wrath were 'katartizo'. The word means to "mend, fix, repair, restore", or "retrofitted". And even though my lexicon identifies the word as being in the passive mood, the verb tense of the word is the same for both middle and passive voice.

So, it's entirely possible that the vessels themselves were the cause of being "prepared (retrofitted) for destruction" (middle voice).

What is clear is that God didn't make (create) them for destruction.

However, the next verse does say that the vessels of mercy were prepared in advance for glory.[/user]

Great stuff Brother.

And it fits perfectly with Romans 9:14. Is there injustice with God? No. Absolutely NO.
If God created some for destruction and some for salvation..........we could find injustice in God.

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Romans 1:17~~English Standard Version
For in it(salvation) the righteousness(/Justice) of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Being a vessel fit for destruction or His mercy depends on His justice/righteousness. And His justice/righteousness is satisfied the moment we believe......Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

Salvation is equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

Psalm 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great stuff Brother.

And it fits perfectly with Romans 9:14. Is there injustice with God? No. Absolutely NO.
If God created some for destruction and some for salvation..........we could find injustice in God.

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

Romans 1:17~~English Standard Version
For in it(salvation) the righteousness(/Justice) of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Being a vessel fit for destruction or His mercy depends on His justice/righteousness. And His justice/righteousness is satisfied the moment we believe......Acts 16:31, John 3:16.

Salvation is equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

Psalm 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

 

[Edward]

I'm told a person has the ability to choose or reject Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

My question is, what is that choice based upon? What factors run through a persons mind allowing them to accept Jesus or walk away from Jesus?

When we are looking for a car we have a filter in which we run our likes and dislikes about a particular car through so we make the best possible decision. There is reasons why we want a 2 door or a 4 door. A chevy or a Ford. A moon roof or no moon roof. Life's situation, our needs and desires, where we're at go into the decision. I have AWD's because I have a hill I need to get up when it snows.

Now, Choosing Jesus isn't like choosing a car...I understand that....but when we apply what I'm told is our free-will what is the basics for our choice to accept or reject Christ Jesus?

Thoughts???

Wanting to realize and live for what my created purpose was.
Reversing the question is interesting. Suppose one has chosen Jesus and desires to know and walk with Him...Does Jesus accept us? It is written that many will say Lord Lord, and He will say I never knew you...It even happened in scripture!

John 2:23-25
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit Himself unto them, because He knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.../

They saw him doing miracles and followed Him and believed that He was the Son of God...But Jesus said, huh-uh...Wow.

I studied this out kinda and as it turned out, these had not yielded their life 100% even though they believed. They held on to something of the world. Friends with anything earthly is enmity with God. (Enemies).

James 4:4
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.../

Romans 5:1
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:.../

Romans 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.../

Phillipians 3:18-19
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)../

 

[Randy]

That is an interesting take when one narrows down into the verse. But what I find interesting, I believe Paul is running commentary on the Exodus. Pharoh hardened his own heart many time before God hardened his heart, so that pharaohs destruction would be made known, and Gods soverrnty revealed.

God knew from the beginning what was to occur.

How did God harden Pharohs heart? GOD told that vengeful arrogant man let my people go. and Pharoh who was a law until himself conceited and wicked reacted just as God knew for God knew the pharaohs heart. The Pharohs considered themselves Gods.

 

[Randy]

Jesus first loved us. I have prayed to and loved/believed in Jesus as far back as my memory goes. Jesus answered back.

 

[Randy]

John 3:19-21 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Here, Jesus explains why people will come to him. Those who LOVE sin don't want to change, they love the darkness. Those who want to do the right thing...........will come to him.

Those who "Love" Jesus obey His commands.

 

[stovebolts]

How did God harden Pharohs heart? GOD told that vengeful arrogant man let my people go. and Pharoh who was a law until himself conceited and wicked reacted just as God knew for God knew the pharaohs heart. The Pharohs considered themselves Gods.

We can all be a bit arrogant making laws unto ourselves as if to say we ourselves are on equal or higher footing than God.

But to your point, there will come a judgment day for us all,either in this world or the world to come. So let it be known that all the gods of Egypt were put on trial, including pharoh and judgment rendered that Gods soverrnty would be shown.

 

[Randy]

We can all be a bit arrogant making laws unto ourselves as if to say we ourselves are on equal or higher footing than God.

But to your point, there will come a judgment day for us all,either in this world or the world to come. So let it be known that all the gods of Egypt were put on trial, including pharoh and judgment rendered that Gods soverrnty would be shown.

MY point is God hardened the pharaohs heart by the commands and judgments He issued to Pharaoh. Pharaoh acted out of pride and vengeance which ended up his undoing.

 

[stovebolts]

MY point is God hardened the pharaohs heart by the commands and judgments He issued to Pharaoh. Pharaoh acted out of pride and vengeance which ended up his undoing.

What I hear you saying, is pharaoh' heart was hardened by God because of how God treated him.
If I am hearing you correctly, then I'd like to say that I understand how you are it that way, and is like to see if you can understand how I see it slightly different.

We see that God is casting judgment upon all the gods of Egypt while simultainously claiming a nation as his very own son.

Egyptian theology is a pantheon of gods under the monarchy of Pharaoh who is god incarnate. As such, Pharaoh is above all gods, and he reigns within his geological parameters.

YHVH comes on the scene, who is the god of the Hebrews who 400 years earlier were displaced from their lands and now, this god wants to take Pharaohs workforce, and Pharaoh hardens his heart.

After several plagues, Pharaoh repents but then doesn't follow through, and hardens his own heart further. It is here that matters ramp up, and God makes his judgment, and hardens the heart of Pharaoh, and takes his first born son to show that YHVH is Lord, and is above Pharaoh and in doing so, claims Israel as his son, who is set free.

I believe this teaches us that God will show his Glory and that no man is on equal footing with God. I believe God hardened his heart just as he causes a stupor over some men so they are unable to see the truth after rejecting it of their own will. It is their lot, and a judgment seen in this world for those of us who are able to see, and learn from it.

 

[FreeGrace]

How did God harden Pharohs heart?

By giving him all those choices to let the Israelites go. Each time he refused, he actually hardened his own heart, which is what the Bible says. 1 Sam 6:6

GOD told that vengeful arrogant man let my people go. and Pharoh who was a law until himself conceited and wicked reacted just as God knew for God knew the pharaohs heart. The Pharohs considered themselves Gods.

When people refuse to obey the Lord, they harden their hearts.

 

[Randy]

By giving him all those choices to let the Israelites go. Each time he refused, he actually hardened his own heart, which is what the Bible says. 1 Sam 6:6


When people refuse to obey the Lord, they harden their hearts.

I agree

 

[Randy]

What I hear you saying, is pharaoh' heart was hardened by God because of how God treated him.
If I am hearing you correctly, then I'd like to say that I understand how you are it that way, and is like to see if you can understand how I see it slightly different.

We see that God is casting judgment upon all the gods of Egypt while simultainously claiming a nation as his very own son.

Egyptian theology is a pantheon of gods under the monarchy of Pharaoh who is god incarnate. As such, Pharaoh is above all gods, and he reigns within his geological parameters.

YHVH comes on the scene, who is the god of the Hebrews who 400 years earlier were displaced from their lands and now, this god wants to take Pharaohs workforce, and Pharaoh hardens his heart.

After several plagues, Pharaoh repents but then doesn't follow through, and hardens his own heart further. It is here that matters ramp up, and God makes his judgment, and hardens the heart of Pharaoh, and takes his first born son to show that YHVH is Lord, and is above Pharaoh and in doing so, claims Israel as his son, who is set free.

I believe this teaches us that God will show his Glory and that no man is on equal footing with God. I believe God hardened his heart just as he causes a stupor over some men so they are unable to see the truth after rejecting it of their own will. It is their lot, and a judgment seen in this world for those of us who are able to see, and learn from it.

Pharaohs heart was already hard. HE wouldn't listen to the one true God. Even sought vengeance. Its possible God used Satan to tempt Pharaoh or keep Pharaoh from believing or listening to Gods commands.

 

[stovebolts]

. Its possible God used Satan to tempt Pharaoh or keep Pharaoh from believing or listening to Gods commands.

When I read the things you wrote, it tells me you really don't understand the narrative or you wouldn't have to reach so far out of the text to make your point.
Clearly, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The text is explicitly clear on this. The text is also explicitly clear that God hardened Pharaohs heart.

Within the narrative, the hardenining starts with Pharaoh hardening his own heart, to God hardening Pharaohs heart.

Perhaps it's worth noting who Pharaoh was, and what he represented.

What is it about the text in regard to God hardening Pharaohs heart that rubs you the wrong way?