Why Do We Sin?

[Mike]

A proposition in a Bible study group I'm in said that we sin, because we do not fully believe in our heart, the omnipresence of God. I'll explain.

The premise of this session was to talk about how most people have bought in to the lies of Satan. Through the new-age movement and post-modernism, we've been inundated by messages that God is not and there really is nothing besides the cosmos (as Karl Sagan said). Everyday, this is pounded into us, and as years go by, the message grafts itself into our psyche.

They proposed that even Christians don't harbor 100% belief in God's Omnipresence. They might say they do (I say I do), but a part of them, even subconsciously has some disbelief due to the influence of "the world".

An example given was a guy at his computer looking at things he aught not look at. If his mother stood behind him and could see everything he was clicking on, he wouldn't do it, because plain as day, she's standing right there. He doesn't have to believe it. He knows it! He says the greatest time he falls to this temptation is when his wife and kids leave him alone. But, in Truth, he's NOT alone. So if we would purposely do something like this (or a different sin) while we're all alone, shouldn't God's omnipresence be just as convicting in every sinful act as our mothers? The speaker suggested this is evidence that there's a disconnect between our head and our heart in having complete faith that he is there, and this has been brought on globally by philosophers and post-modernism chipping away at people, even biblical Christians. Our heads can say they believe it, but does the heart truly believe it.

I thought that was interesting, but then I thought, what about Paul who struggled with sin. He talked about doing the things he knows he shouldn't do, and not doing the things he should? The reason we sin, the speaker suggested, sounded viable, but people have sinned and lusted throughout time; before all the philosophy and post-mod Christianity emerged.

How does this resonate with you? Besides the easy answer like, "We're sinful by nature", what is the underlying reason we sin in the presence of the omnipresent Lord?

 

[Tina]

.

One reason is that there is no fear of the Lord, assuming that even if God is watching, He can't or won't do anything .... But they shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free (John 8:32).


Hebrews 4:11-13

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

 

[Nathan]

Dude, I think I am going to move to Michigan just so I can be around some people who are 'real'. You do not find much real honesty around these parts most of the time. And I think that its because others do not want to hear it for the most part.

On topic; I was thinking about this the other day. For what ever reason. Well, it was a thought of obedience/disobedience. But most people try to 'reason' in their minds, myself included, what kind of 'sin' Adam and Eve committed. Which one of the Ten Commandments did they break. After all, thats how we classify sin...right?

Then I got to thinking, it was just simple disobedience. It led my train of thought to the fact that if a person breaks '1' commandment, he is guilty of all. So that tells me that disobedience is at the root of all sin. Why? Because obedience would dictate that you would follow the instructions given. So, why do we sin? I think that the guy was right on track when he brought up disbelief. And I would venture to say that it is the very reason why we do sin.

Yes, we have a sin nature...well, 'we' had a sin nature, and now 'we' live surrounded by sin. But think about it. The reason why a person, outside of Christ sins constantly, 'lives in sin', is because they don't believe in Christ. Its really that simple. What was Christ's cry for Jerusalem? He would have gathered them, but they would not. There are many 'reasons' that people disbelieve, but at the root it is always because they believe in something else. We have to make a choice. People are going to believe in something....

Scriptural evidence? Lets look past Adam and Eve's sin. We know that she believed the Devil, that God would not 'surely kill them', and they disbelieved God that in the day they ate they would die. Lets look at the next recorded 'sin'.

Ge 4:4-7 "And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5 but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6 The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

Was his 'sin' anger? We often think it is. Or we will at least say, "it is a 'part' of the sin". But look what God almighty said Himself. Sin was crouching at the door. Sin had not entered in yet. Hummm....thought provoking huh? God gave Cain a choice. Obey Him and be accepted, or disobey Him and let sin 'rule' in his life. We all know what happened.

Then lets look at what James says;

Jas 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

We see that temptation precedes all sin. We know that it in and of itself is not 'sin'. The thing is, we do not just make random 'choices'. As much as we would say that we 'role the dice' sometimes, there is even a choice involved in that. Our choices are based upon our beliefs. If you did not believe your car would go forward, you would not push on the gas pedal. If you believed you car would keep going forward by pushing on the brake pedal, then you would not push on it when you came to a stop sign. All of our choices in life are based upon what we believe.

That is why Christ was more concerned with peoples faith than their actions. He, being God, knew that a persons faith determines their actions. We also see that is why faith without 'action' is dead. It is not real belief. Because when you really believe something, your actions show.

And sin? If we as Christians really believed Christ set us free from sins curse....that sin will no longer have dominion over us....that we are a 'new creation'....that God lives in us....that all these 'things' we see here and now on earth will be burned up....that one day we will have to give an account for what we have done with the Gospel message while here on earth....

 

[Nathan]

what is the underlying reason we sin in the presence of the omnipresent Lord?

If you want to skip the long post. Disbelief is the ONLY reason why 'we' sin in the omnipresence of the Lord. Now you have to answer what do you not believe? He is really here? He cares what you do? He will not punish you? That it does not matter what you do? That it is not sin? The list of those questions could go on and on.

 

[lamplady]

We sin because we live in sin. We are not made perfect yet - that time will come when Jesus comes to redeem his own. What we should be doing now is striving to be sinless. That's not an excuse to sin and then say we're only striving; we should actively seek not to do wrong. I for one DO know God is watching me every moment and act accordingly - I can't be alone therefore that article assuming that people don't is wrong.

 

[Nathan]

We sin because we live in sin. We are not made perfect yet - that time will come when Jesus comes to redeem his own. What we should be doing now is striving to be sinless. That's not an excuse to sin and then say we're only striving; we should actively seek not to do wrong. I for one DO know God is watching me every moment and act accordingly - I can't be alone therefore that article assuming that people don't is wrong.

By "in" do you mean in or surrounded by? Are you saying that we cannot be in a state of not sinning?

 

[lamplady]

By "in" do you mean in or surrounded by? Are you saying that we cannot be in a state of not sinning?

Hi

I mean we live IN sin - sin is IN us, IN the world and we're born INto sin. We won't be made perfect or sinless until God redeems us and CHANGE us.

In the meantime we STRIVE not to sin or do wrong. That is NOT an excuse to sin because we CAN do right ALL the time if we wanted to do.

 

[Drew]

A proposition in a Bible study group I'm in said that we sin, because we do not fully believe in our heart, the omnipresence of God. I'll explain.

Hello Mike:

First, we need to clarify: are we talking about the believer or the non-believer? I suggest that the non-believer, who is therefore not a "new creation", will sin even if s/he is fully "aware" that God is omnipresent. The problem is that, without "being born again", we are hopelessly enslaved to our sinful natures. So even if that non-believer believes that God is omni-present, s/he will continue to sin.

With respect to the believer, I think you have a very valid point.

I thought that was interesting, but then I thought, what about Paul who struggled with sin. He talked about doing the things he knows he shouldn't do, and not doing the things he should?

The Romans 7 text you describe does not describe a believer. So that material is not relevant to any discussion of why a Christian would continue to sin. I realize that many see Romans 7 as a transcript of Christian experience, but the text simply does not allow this. We can discuss this if you like, although I do not want to derail the thread.

 

[smaller]

A proposition in a Bible study group I'm in said that we sin, because we do not fully believe in our heart, the omnipresence of God. I'll explain.

The premise of this session was to talk about how most people have bought in to the lies of Satan. Through the new-age movement and post-modernism, we've been inundated by messages that God is not and there really is nothing besides the cosmos (as Karl Sagan said). Everyday, this is pounded into us, and as years go by, the message grafts itself into our psyche.

They proposed that even Christians don't harbor 100% belief in God's Omnipresence. They might say they do (I say I do), but a part of them, even subconsciously has some disbelief due to the influence of "the world".

An example given was a guy at his computer looking at things he aught not look at. If his mother stood behind him and could see everything he was clicking on, he wouldn't do it, because plain as day, she's standing right there. He doesn't have to believe it. He knows it! He says the greatest time he falls to this temptation is when his wife and kids leave him alone. But, in Truth, he's NOT alone. So if we would purposely do something like this (or a different sin) while we're all alone, shouldn't God's omnipresence be just as convicting in every sinful act as our mothers? The speaker suggested this is evidence that there's a disconnect between our head and our heart in having complete faith that he is there, and this has been brought on globally by philosophers and post-modernism chipping away at people, even biblical Christians. Our heads can say they believe it, but does the heart truly believe it.

I thought that was interesting, but then I thought, what about Paul who struggled with sin. He talked about doing the things he knows he shouldn't do, and not doing the things he should? The reason we sin, the speaker suggested, sounded viable, but people have sinned and lusted throughout time; before all the philosophy and post-mod Christianity emerged.

How does this resonate with you? Besides the easy answer like, "We're sinful by nature", what is the underlying reason we sin in the presence of the omnipresent Lord?

These matters were clearly pinned on the presence of indwelling sin, which Paul described as NO LONGER I in Romans 7:17-21.

His conclusion was A LAW that was elaborated on by Paul, but that LAW was also written by Jesus.

The LAW that Paul spoke of IS the reactions of SIN within the mind and heart when that same INDWELLING SIN is exposed to LAW. Paul adroitly delineates this exact matter in Romans 7:7-9 and he found he was quite totally helpless to STOP that from happening. And he was so because of what he stated. IT WAS NOT HIM.

The reality of SIN is proved to be in ALL, yes even every believer anytime they pick up the LAW. Trying to follow the Law or NOT trying to follow the LAW, the reaction of SIN each and everytime the LAW is picked up and read DOES spring the facts of SIN into 'action in MIND.'

Paul's conclusions on these matters are Divine, True, and universal in nature.

It is not the 'human nature' or the 'ego' or the 'old man' or 'pride' or any other working that 'men' try to BLAME.

Sin is - transgression of the LAW

{scripture has concluded the fact that all HAVE SIN}

Sin is ANYTHING not of faith

{FAITH works through LOVE. The Law is NOT of faith, but is AN IRRITANT of SIN}

and finally, the very hardest thing to come to grips with 'personally.'

SIN IS OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

No 'believer' really wants to swallow this portion of FACT. But it's a fact nevertheless. The LAW inserts the TEMPTATION of the DEVIL into the mind and hearts. This is a BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE with unavoidable conclusions to the TEMPTER who is immediately SPRUNG into actions in mind and hearts where WORD is sown.

So, trying to STOP the DEVIL from doing what he does is quite utterly POINTLESS as that is NOT going to ever happen. It is A LAW that SATAN must follow to INDUCE temptation. That matter was SET IN THE GARDEN.

God put LAW upon the LAWLESS. He HEAPED it up even more with Moses.

And Jesus MAGNIFIED the Law to make it THE SIN of ADULTERY to even THINK about ADULTERY. And thereby CONDEMNED ALL SIN in SINFUL FLESH.

There is more to say about these matters. But will stop here to see how many can see these realities and make that FINAL CONNECTION of fact 'personal.'

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Nathan]

Hi

I mean we live IN sin - sin is IN us, IN the world and we're born INto sin. We won't be made perfect or sinless until God redeems us and CHANGE us.

In the meantime we STRIVE not to sin or do wrong. That is NOT an excuse to sin because we CAN do right ALL the time if we wanted to do.

1Jo 3:3-10 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

So is John mistaken? Is Paul mistaken?

Rom 6:2 "...How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Rom 6:7 "For one who has died has been set free from sin."

Rom 6:17-18 "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."


:

 

[lamplady]

1Jo 3:3-10 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

So is John mistaken? Is Paul mistaken?

Rom 6:2 "...How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Rom 6:7 "For one who has died has been set free from sin."

Rom 6:17-18 "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."


:

Are we arguing? : Because I agree ... ...

 

[Nathan]

Are we arguing? : Because I agree ... ...

lol...not that I know of. Me no likes to argue.

However, you stated;

I mean we live IN sin - sin is IN us...

So it seems that you were saying, 'we live IN sin" and that there is sin constantly IN us? I am just trying to work out your thoughts is all, no arguing.

 

[lamplady]

lol...not that I know of. Me no likes to argue.

However, you stated;



So it seems that you were saying, 'we live IN sin" and that there is sin constantly IN us? I am just trying to work out your thoughts is all, no arguing.

I see ... lol ... ...

Ok I'm not sure I know how to break it down further but I'll try with this:

1 John 10 says:

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make God out to be a liar, and his word is not in us."



We ARE sinners but it's not an excuse to KEEP sinning ... :yes ...

 

[Nathan]

I see ... lol ... ...

Ok I'm not sure I know how to break it down further but I'll try with this:

1 John 10 says:

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make God out to be a liar, and his word is not in us."



We ARE sinners but it's not an excuse to KEEP sinning ... :yes ...

I see. But I believe, in context, John is referring to the fact that people cannot say "I have not sinned...ever." In other words, if we think that we have not ever sinned, and we think we are perfect, then the fact that Jesus died to "take" away our sins would be a mute point. The reason I say that is it follows a train of thought from the previous verses.

Now, if I were going to 'debate' the idea that we constantly lived in sin, then I might use 1John 1:8; "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I think the best way to describe it is to say we have the ability to sin. It is there, in the form of temptation, waiting for us to 'go after it'. And, while we are still in a fallen world there are odds that say we will sin from time to time.

John even tells us why he just made these statements, and writing the letter, in 2:1; "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Notice he says we may not. If it were not possible to 'not' sin, then John would not have given this possibility. Then he says 'if', not 'when', or even as some would like to say; "But because you are in sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

I am just trying to better understand what you think about sin and its relationship to the believer. Thats all No ill mannered thoughts from me.

 

[Mike]

I'm hoping it's not too late to salvage this. If anyone else has something to speak to the assumption of this series, I'd be interested.

I'm not sure how someone can say that they would do the things they do if they were not tainted in some way to even subconsciously doubt in the omnipresence of God. If you had the same confidence that God was with you as you do that someone else is, would you do what you do?

The secular world view, as opposed to a biblical world view, has impacted people so subtly, that we are unaware of how it has. I mentioned Sagan. His infamous statement is something like, "The Cosmos is all there ever was, all there is and all there ever will be..." If he came right out and said, "There is no God.", people would have rejected it. So he made these statements to disguise his ultimate conclusion. But the clear assumption he's making is that God does not exist. When people buy the statements, they buy the assumption behind the statements. And people bought into it.

I'm not saying we as Christians buy into Sagan's confused conclusions, but the world has, and we're bombarded with the world. Paul was speaking to believers when he wrote in Colossians.

Colossians 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ"

A few conclusions we can make from this verse:
1. We, as Christians, can become captivated.
2. Deceptive philosophy can take us off track.
3. This philosophy is of the world, not of Christ.

So, I believe that we have, without recognizing it, been impacted by this deceptive philosophy and not even know it. I believe there's a lot to the premise that we wouldn't do what we sometimes do if we were 100% certain that the One Omnipresent God was at our side.

 

[cyberjosh]

Addressing the OP, you surely are on to something for many people, but frighteningly Mike I have sinned before fully aware that God was watching and that I would be judged for it. My heart grew hard as I let the flesh control my actions while the Spirit in me yet testified to me that it was wrong, in spite of my actions (it was a constant conscience prick). I've even had songs of the Spirit rise up in me (almost involuntary humming of worship songs) when I am about to step into sin, which is remarkable, and I am ashamed to say I have willfully ignored it before. I do think this stems from a lack of the fear of the Lord, something which I and all Christians - I believe - need to cultivate more in their life. May God forgive us when we grieve the Spirit He has put in us and willfully transgress His commandments. For if God marked all our transgressions, who could stand?

My 2¢.

~Josh

 

[Mike]

Addressing the OP, you surely are on to something for many people, but frighteningly Mike I have sinned before fully aware that God was watching and that I would be judged for it. My heart grew hard as I let the flesh control my actions while the Spirit yet testified to me that it was wrong in spite of my actions (it was a constant conscience prick). I've even had songs of the Spirit rise up in me when I am about to step into sin, and I am ashamed to say I have willfully ignored it before. I do think this stems from a lack of the fear of the Lord, something which I and all Christians - I believe - need to cultivate more in their life.

My 2¢.

~Josh

Josh, while I believe what I'm saying, I wouldn't say it's a certain thing. I'm working through the underlying reasons for doing what we do, or have done. Can you say that you would have done what you did with the Person of Jesus at your side? I feel pretty certain that I wouldn't. What's the difference between that situation and the reality of every moment of my life? I know how my behavior is affected when my pastor is around to observe my behavior, and he's a mere man.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh, while I believe what I'm saying, I wouldn't say it's a certain thing. I'm working through the underlying reasons for doing what we do, or have done. Can you say that you would have done what you did with the Person of Jesus at your side? I feel pretty certain that I wouldn't. What's the difference between that situation and the reality of every moment of my life? I know how my behavior is affected when my pastor is around to observe my behavior, and he's a mere man.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Well the fact of the matter is, our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit does not leave us when we sin and then come back when we are not sinning (something I call "jack-in-the-box" theology), and when we sin we do so before the very presence of God (which is why Paul said in Scripture that our body was a Temple - in warning not to commit immorality for that very reason). The Spirit lets me know that, even when I sin contrary to Him, and when we disobey He is grieved. Scripture says, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). If we willfully let our sinful desire override and ignore the clear voice of the Spirit in us telling us not to do it there is no excuse. The Bible does speak of those whose "conscience has been seared as with a hot iron", but believers are not among those (unless we allow ourselves to apostize from God) and rather we do have the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit to help us discern right from wrong at all times. Perhaps how well one hears the Spirit's voice differs with different levels of spiritual sensitivity and where one is with their maturity in their walk with Christ (some may not have yet learned to discern the Spirit's voice), but for me the voice is very loud and clear (which for me is even more inexcusable). It is during moments like that that I remind myself of the admonition of Hebrews 6:4-6 to knock some sense into myself so that I do not continue in that sin.

That is how I see it anyway.

 

[cyberjosh]

As for whether I would have done it if Jesus were physically beside me, no it probably would not have occured because sin likes darkness, darkness cannot stand the light, and most sins are commited in private or with other sinners (which the Scripture also mentions about shameful deeds done in secret). It's also a mental thing, and we treat God differently than we would someone standing with us just because He does not seem to be corporeally in the room with us. It seems easy to ignore the presence of God when we do not have someone physically standing there to deter us, because we can suppress the voice of the Spirit in us. Although sometimes I honestly wondered if God wouldn't show Himself not incapable of doing something about it and sending a physical reminder of His presence, such as striking me with lighting or fire coming from heaven (as he judged Korah). Luckily he did not, but it really is quite rediculous how we can justify things even when we know God is watching.

I can perhaps see your point on not discerning omniscience, but it's not that I'm not aware of God's omniscience and that He is watching but that the flesh chooses to ignore God's presence because it "can". Perhaps is it that that situation causes us to not recognize the full import of what God's presence and omniscience really means (and its consequences), that essentially that it is as good as if He were actually there physically standing in the room beside you.

 

[Mike]

Good stuff as always, Josh! A lot of gravity there.