Image of God - or image of Adam?

[Elijah7777]

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities ... rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

I really tried to live my life asking: What Would Jesus Do? There are things I just would not do and I wonder why people are willing to do what they do to make dollars to stuff in their pocket. Then I wonder what they do with the money that they should not be doing. Never once did I hear a church that was worried about where the money comes from.

The phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" (WWJD) comes from the classic Christian novel "In His Steps" by Charles Monroe Sheldon, first published in 1896. The book has sold over 50 million copies, making it one of the best-selling Christian books of all time.

Summary of "In His Steps"​

The novel follows Reverend Henry Maxwell, a pastor in the fictional town of Raymond, Kansas, who challenges his congregation to not do anything for a year without first asking, "What Would Jesus Do?". This question transforms the lives of several characters, including a newspaper editor, a singer, and a wealthy heiress, as they struggle to align their actions with Christian principles.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What Would Jesus Do?

In his first coming or his second? In other words, during his ministry or his reign? The answers to both are clear - save the world and rule the world.

 

[Elijah7777]

In his first coming or his second? In other words, during his ministry or his reign? The answers to both are clear - save the world and rule the world.

The point is that Jesus lived His life as an example for us to follow.
John 13:15 – "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you."
1 Peter 2:21b Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps."

These verses emphasize self-denial, love, humility, and service, showing how Jesus set the perfect example for us
Matthew 5:17-20, He states: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Romans 2:13, "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

So we are to be good, we are to be right, but we are also called to be just before God. Because God is a God of absolute and perfect justice.

This is all a work of the Grace of God in us. Not our work but the work that God wants to do in us. To transform us.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I'm telling you, it's better to be legalistic than lawless. Lord Jesus rejects those who practice lawlessness, not legalism.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt. 7:21-23)

Lol, those people were working hard for the Lord. And their good works did not compensate for their sins. Same is true for legalistic people. They are working hard for the Lord. But their good works do not compensate for their sins.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I'm telling you, it's better to be legalistic than lawless

If you still don't get it, I'm here weighing the consequences of legalism and , i.licentiousnesse. lawlessness.

There is a reason that you are conflating the exercise of liberty and indulging the flesh. I suggest you look into that. You could start by trying to understand Galatians 5:13's contrast between exercising liberty and indulging the flesh. It's there to tell us that we should use our liberty without misusing it.

There is also a reason why you do not see the dangers of legalism. I suggest you also look into that. You could start with Galatians 1:6, or Galatians 3:1, or Galatians 3:10, or Galatians 4:21, or Galatians 5:4, or Galatians 5:7-11. All these verses tell us it is a false doctrine with dire consequences for those who preach it and for those who are its victims.

When you learn these things, you will find a third path, a path you are not familiar with, and a path that avoids both the pitfals of legalism and the pitfalls of licentiousness.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Lol, those people were working hard for the Lord. And their good works did not compensate for their sins. Same is true for legalistic people. They are working hard for the Lord. But their good works do not compensate for their sins.

If you seek another faith vs work debate, which is a false dichotomy, go somewhere else. Good and hard works proceed from genuine faith to glorify God, not to compensate sins.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is a reason that you are conflating the exercise of liberty and indulging the flesh. I suggest you look into that. You could start by trying to understand Galatians 5:13's contrast between exercising liberty and indulging the flesh. It's there to tell us that we should use our liberty without misusing it.

There is also a reason why you do not see the dangers of legalism. I suggest you also look into that. You could start with Galatians 1:6, or Galatians 3:1, or Galatians 3:10, or Galatians 4:21, or Galatians 5:4, or Galatians 5:7-11. All these verses tell us it is a false doctrine with dire consequences for those who preach it and for those who are its victims.

When you learn these things, you will find a third path, a path you are not familiar with, and a path that avoids both the pitfals of legalism and the pitfalls of licentiousness.

I suggest you do some study on the historical context of the Galatia letter. It was addressing a particular false teaching from the Judaisers, that Gentiles must be converted to Judaism and circumcised for salvation. Have you ever met such a Judaiser? Is there such legalism issue in any modern church? Most of the congregation, even a lot of preachers are total strangers to these Mosaic laws, it was ancient relic to them. The pressing issue has always been "hyper grace", i.e. licentiousness, which forfeits that liberty by leading you into the slavery of sin. I do not see the dangers of legalism because I don't live in the first century Galatia, and neither do you.

 

[Elijah7777]

the dangers of legalism.

People often confuse legalism with being lawful, but they are quite different concepts.

• Legalism is an excessive focus on rules, often at the expense of grace, mercy, or the true intent behind the law. In a religious context, legalism can mean trying to earn favor with God through strict rule-following rather than faith.
• Being lawful simply means following the law, whether civil or moral, without necessarily being rigid or overly strict.

 

[tdidymas]

I suggest you do some study on the historical context of the Galatia letter. It was addressing a particular false teaching from the Judaisers, that Gentiles must be converted to Judaism and circumcised for salvation. Have you ever met such a Judaiser? Is there such legalism issue in any modern church? Most of the congregation, even a lot of preachers are total strangers to these Mosaic laws, it was ancient relic to them. The pressing issue has always been "hyper grace", i.e. licentiousness, which forfeits that liberty by leading you into the slavery of sin. I do not see the dangers of legalism because I don't live in the first century Galatia, and neither do you.

The principle of the Judaizers is still in effect in many ways:
1. If you don't partake of the "Eucharist," you'll go to purgatory
2. If you aren't baptized "In the name of Jesus" (only), you won't go to heaven
3. If you don't practice the 7th-day sabbath you won't get into heaven
4. You're not a real Christian unless you're fully immersed
5. If anyone doesn't tithe, they're going to hell
6. No one outside of the [...] Church will make it to heaven
etc. etc. ad infinitum

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

If you seek another faith vs work debate, which is a false dichotomy, go somewhere else. Good and hard works proceed from genuine faith to glorify God, not to compensate sins.

I agree with your statement that good works are the effect of salvation, not the cause of salvation. But when I asked you to clarify the OP's claim that we are told we must conform to God's image or else, you did not want to agree that conforming to God's image is the result of salvation. However, since you didn't answer my direct question, I still can't be 100% sure where you stand. But I left that alone and moved on to legalism verses liberty in connection with Christian living. After one more post, I'll leave that discussion alone also (as you suggest).

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I suggest you do some study on the historical context of the Galatia letter. It was addressing a particular false teaching from the Judaisers, that Gentiles must be converted to Judaism and circumcised for salvation. Have you ever met such a Judaiser? Is there such legalism issue in any modern church? Most of the congregation, even a lot of preachers are total strangers to these Mosaic laws, it was ancient relic to them. The pressing issue has always been "hyper grace", i.e. licentiousness, which forfeits that liberty by leading you into the slavery of sin. I do not see the dangers of legalism because I don't live in the first century Galatia, and neither do you.

You are right that this is a popular view of Galatians. However, this point of view fails because the warnings, instructions, and evidence presented to the Galatian Christians do not generally conform to the premise.

Take Galatians 2:4-5, for example, "And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." This speaks of "false brethren", not Judaisers. And their true purpose was to "spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage".

Or consider Galatians 3:10-14, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” This isn't pushing back against obeying "Mosaic laws" in order to become a Jew and be saved. It is pointing to the curses in God's law that everyone is under unless they obey it completely. And it points out the futility in this approach because everyone knows "no one is justified by the law in the sight of God".

As promised, and as requested, I will not reply to any more of your comments in this thread.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You are right that this is a popular view of Galatians. However, this point of view fails because the warnings, instructions, and evidence presented to the Galatian Christians do not generally conform to the premise.

Take Galatians 2:4-5, for example, "And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you." This speaks of "false brethren", not Judaisers. And their true purpose was to "spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage".

Those "false brethren" were referring to none other than the Judaisers who predicated salvation on conversion to Judaism and observance of Mosaic law, that was their purpose, and the bondage was their traditions. The early church was commonly known as the Way as an unorthodox sect of Judaism, the persecution and deception mostly came from zealous Jews such as Paul himself before his conversion. This is not merely my point of view, but the historical context of this whole letter.

As promised, and as requested, I will not reply to any more of your comments in this thread.

Alright, adios.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree with your statement that good works are the effect of salvation, not the cause of salvation. But when I asked you to clarify the OP's claim that we are told we must conform to God's image or else, you did not want to agree that conforming to God's image is the result of salvation. However, since you didn't answer my direct question, I still can't be 100% sure where you stand. But I left that alone and moved on to legalism verses liberty in connection with Christian living. After one more post, I'll leave that discussion alone also (as you suggest).

I can only agree that conforming to God's image is the essence of SANCTIFICATION, which is a part of salvation. Whether that happens automatically to those who are supposed to have been saved or requires your own effort to not "grieve the spirit", that's up to you. I don't know where you stand on that as well.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The principle of the Judaizers is still in effect in many ways:
1. If you don't partake of the "Eucharist," you'll go to purgatory
2. If you aren't baptized "In the name of Jesus" (only), you won't go to heaven
3. If you don't practice the 7th-day sabbath you won't get into heaven
4. You're not a real Christian unless you're fully immersed
5. If anyone doesn't tithe, they're going to hell
6. No one outside of the [...] Church will make it to heaven
etc. etc. ad infinitum

The "many ways" which will really bar you from heaven are listed in these verses below.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

 

[tdidymas]

The "many ways" which will really bar you from heaven are listed in these verses below.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)

So then, I guess you agreed with my post, if you actually got my point.

 

[Elijah7777]

Those "false brethren" were referring to none other than the Judaisers who predicated salvation on conversion to Judaism and observance of Mosaic law, that was their purpose, and the bondage was their traditions. The early church was commonly known as the Way as an unorthodox sect of Judaism, the persecution and deception mostly came from zealous Jews such as Paul himself before his conversion. This is not merely my point of view, but the historical context of this whole letter.

Alright, adios.

Paul generally opposed requiring circumcision for salvation, but he did allow circumcision in certain cases. One example is Timothy, whom Paul had circumcised in Acts 16:3 to avoid conflict with Jewish communities they were ministering to.

However, in Galatians 5:2, Paul warned that relying on circumcision for righteousness would make Christ’s sacrifice meaningless. His stance was clear: circumcision was not necessary for salvation, but he permitted it when it helped with ministry efforts.

Galatians 5:12 He says, "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!"

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So then, I guess you agreed with my post, if you actually got my point.

Not really, because the saints will ultimately go to God's millennial kingdom - right here on earth, not up in heaven. Also, "hell" is a confusing snd composite term that has wrapped the grave, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire into one.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul generally opposed requiring circumcision for salvation, but he did allow circumcision in certain cases. One example is Timothy, whom Paul had circumcised in Acts 16:3 to avoid conflict with Jewish communities they were ministering to.

However, in Galatians 5:2, Paul warned that relying on circumcision for righteousness would make Christ’s sacrifice meaningless. His stance was clear: circumcision was not necessary for salvation, but he permitted it when it helped with ministry efforts.

Galatians 5:12 He says, "I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!"

I hold a utilitarian view on this and most of Mosaic laws, circumcision is primarily a necessity for STD prevention, secondarily for personal hygiene, tertierily for social group identity - be it a Jewish group, a muslim group or any other group of which all males are circumcised for whatever motive. All of these are worldly benefits, none of these has anything to do with eternal salvation.

 

[Elijah7777]

All of these are worldly benefits

You are a one in all sort of guy, but Paul seems to be an if, and or but sort of guy. Paul is just trying to help us to understand what David tells us in the Psalms. One notable reference is Psalm 143:2, which Paul echoes in Galatians 2:16 when discussing justification by faith rather than works of the law. Psalm 143:2 teaches us about human imperfection and the need for God's mercy.

This passage highlights that no one can stand justified before God based on their own righteousness. It reflects the idea that all people fall short and must rely on God’s grace rather than their own deeds. The psalmist, traditionally believed to be David, pleads for mercy rather than judgment, acknowledging that human efforts alone cannot achieve true righteousness.

This is beautifully reflected in Psalm 51, where David repents, saying: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me." (Psalm 51:10)

His deep reliance on God’s grace made him "a man after God’s own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14 & Acts 13:22). It’s a powerful reminder that our hope isn't in our own works but in God’s ability to redeem and restore.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You are a one in all sort of guy, but Paul seems to be an if, and or but sort of guy. Paul is just trying to help us to understand what David tells us in the Psalms. One notable reference is Psalm 143:2, which Paul echoes in Galatians 2:16 when discussing justification by faith rather than works of the law. Psalm 143:2 teaches us about human imperfection and the need for God's mercy.

This passage highlights that no one can stand justified before God based on their own righteousness. It reflects the idea that all people fall short and must rely on God’s grace rather than their own deeds. The psalmist, traditionally believed to be David, pleads for mercy rather than judgment, acknowledging that human efforts alone cannot achieve true righteousness.

This is beautifully reflected in Psalm 51, where David repents, saying: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me." (Psalm 51:10)

His deep reliance on God’s grace made him "a man after God’s own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14 & Acts 13:22). It’s a powerful reminder that our hope isn't in our own works but in God’s ability to redeem and restore.

Yes, well said. Just think about Paul's heartbreak for those Galatians who He indicated had turned away from Christ and His grace (Ga 1:6) and as a result had become estranged from Him and His grace (Ga 5:4). This does seem to be a common thread in the belief system of those today who are focused on obedience to the law to gain or maintain salvation. Actually, it may be the hallmark. I will prayerfully consider this.