Why don't [some] pastors and laypeople follow Philippians 2:3?

[Deavonreye]

This isn't a question about christianity, but about some of the followers.

I went to a pretty large church, not very long ago. It was pretty interesting, actually, because as a member of the worship team, I played for a combined number [3 morning services] of around 8,000-9,000 people. The staff of the church were [to be honest] rather "glorified". An Assemblies of God church, they believe the bible fully. However, if you must believe and agree with every verse in the bible, and you have a certain lifestyle, can you truly follow this verse?

The pastor of the church makes an extravegant amount of money and lives in the most expensive gated community in my city. Some argue that "he is the head of a 'big business', and needs to be compensated for what he does". Other similar arguments may be made, but the bottom line is one of "defending his wage". He has become so "idolized" that he has to have body guards standing there when he greets the people. Now, he DOES choose to drive a modest truck around, so I'm not trying to completely bash him, but one has to wonder about [not just him, but others] how anyone, especially in church leadership, couldn't see this as a problem. Look at the following:

Don't be selfish; don't try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves. Philippians 2:3

Pastors are supposed to be "leading their flock", so to speak, . . . but I have to wonder about any pastor who allows himself to be SO overly paid that he can afford such an extravegant living, . . . especially when there are undoubtably MANY in their congregation who barely survive, financially. . . . .and there are people on the streets starving.

There is a certain level of money that a person needs to live a decent life. I wouldn't take that away from anyone, . . . but for "servants of the Lord", there must be something above "just business". Excess shouldn't be lavashed upon yourself while others struggle. It isn't as though THIS level of pastor has to run each part of the church, like small church pastors do. They will have teams of financial wizards to do that. The pastor's part is pretty much the same as any other. Study and prepare for the message, . . . visit sick people in the hospital, etc.

What is your opinion of this?

 

[reba]

The 'guide line' that comes to my mind ....

A pastores pay should reflect the area the church is in....a balance of the incomes of the members....

jack told me i was rich.... not even close .....DH pay scale was twice that of
of jack ... a few years later and the roles reversed jack did not think he was rich...

The church in your post is a good part of why i like small church groups....

 

[Deavonreye]

The 'guide line' that comes to my mind ....

A pastores pay should reflect the area the church is in....a balance of the incomes of the members....

jack told me i was rich.... not even close .....DH pay scale was twice that of
of jack ... a few years later and the roles reversed jack did not think he was rich...

The church in your post is a good part of why i like small church groups....

Yes, I have heard of that "guide line" as well. And if it weren't for "what would Jesus do", I wouldn't have an issue. But paying clergy/pastors that much makes me think of the Catholic church with their ordainment, or the Rolex and gold cuffling cladded "TV Evangelist" who also gets a lot of money and lives in extravegance. As I said, such as these SHOULD be paid an average wage, but to pay him so much that he can afford the expensive fenced community [on a PGA rated golf course], there's something wrong with that. . . IF he really cares about those in need.

One of my best friends goes to a very small church. There is humility there.

 

[Alabaster]

I don't see why it is anyone's business about how much a pastor makes, especially if one is not a member of that particular church. It is simply tantamount to gossip and useless criticism. You don't know what his income is or what his expenses or giving involves.

How do you know that the pastor of that church lives extravagantly? How do you know he doesn't tithe more than 10%? What has selfishness got to do with anything? The pastor isn't paying himself.

The bible tells us our leaders need to be well-paid, given double honour for doing what they do.


1 Timothy 5:17 NLT
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

 

[Deavonreye]

I know where he lives, the gated community. You have to be quite wealthy to live there.

As I said, a pastor should be paid a fair wage. Just because he has a lot of people listening to him shouldn't conclude that he has the right to live extravegantly, . . . not and "do what Jesus would do"! I'm sure he DOES give. But if he lives WELL over his means while others struggle, then he can't be "doing what Jesus would do".

BTW, it isn't "gossip" if I don't give the name of the pastor or church. :-/

I'm not completely stubborn on this topic. It is just my own personal thoughts. Others may vary.

 

[D4Christ]

The extravagent lifestyles many pastors live is exactly the reason I am looking for a smaller house church now. But the real question isn't how can they live so rich. The question is why do some many of their congregations support them? I beleive members of these churches will be held accountable for knowing their scriptures and allowing themselves to sit under such leadership. You can't expect a snake not to strike...it is their nature. If you put out fresh meat won't the lions and wolves be attracted...it's their nature. So we cannot expect to hand out money and lots of it, tax free, and think men in sheep's clothing won't steal it.

This irriates me to no end. When Bishop Eddie Long was accused of having relationships with 4 young adult men from his church, many of his parishoners stood boldly by him stating the men were disgruntled since 2 of the 4 men robbed Bishop Long's office. What did they steal? A laptop and cell phones to prove he was sending inappropriate messages and a little jewlery. But the bigger point is this. The police reported that Bishop Long had over $100,000 worth of jewlery in his church private bath....which the men had access to but did not take. Yet, I heard not one church members stand up and ask why on earth would our Bishop be in posession of such an extravagent amount of jewlery? (btw....Bishop Long, who promised to clear his name in court, has since decided to settle for mediation.)

No one in our churches should be struggling or going to banks for loans to survive. The church is suppposed to help one another and those with excess are encouraged to give to those without. When is the last time these pastors cut checks for their members according to theirs needs. It seems easier for them to send money to Africa (I suppose for the tax breaks) than to help those they preach to daily. Doesn't this seem to violate the very example set before us in Acts 5?

32 All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so ]they shared everything they had. 33 The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all. 34 There were no needy people among them, because those who owned land or houses would sell them 35 and bring the money to the apostles to give to those in need.
36 For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragementâ€). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. 37 He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles.

Being a pastor should not be another option to get wealthy.

my 2 cents
Deirdre

 

[Alabaster]

I am pleased that our pastors are sufficiently paid, live in nice houses and have nice cars. I would be ashamed if they didn't. They work hard 24 hours a day for us and deliver good, solid teaching, and live their lives in an exemplary way for us to emulate. They are worthy of all they receive.

They are excellent managers of money, and worth listening to in that regard.

They are on the front lines, people! They are who the enemy tries to attack first! Why do you help him?

We mustn't be blind to some of the abuses we see, but our own pastors are to be paid well. If they are worthy of their calling, then we need to honour them as the word of God tells us to. Begrudging those who care for us spiritually is an insult to God.

 

[D4Christ]

I think there is a difference between being paid well according to the double honor the bible states and living well in extravagent wealth. The scriptures state that is is hard for a rich man to enter heaven. Some of these pastors would certainly qualify as rich, many living well above the means of their own parishioners.

More to the point, if they are not selling their (excess) wealth and making sure that they and those who can are providing for all of their members, so that everyone is able to share and have needs taken care of then how could they possibly be following Acts 5?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Alabaster]

What's extravagant to one isn't to another. God's blessing is ABUNDANT---in all areas.

Proverbs 10:22 NLT
The blessing of the Lord makes a person rich,
and he adds no sorrow with it.



We need to be careful that we are not the cause of sorrow by our murmuring.

 

[Oats]

i think the op is right for the most part....

it is unnecessary to have that much money...

they should live humbly like Jesus....

money is hard to come by....

I agree they should have a fair salary , but if there is a man devoid of resources and the pastor has more than enough there is something wrong....

------

i hate expensive things

but human lives are the most expensive things ever

so i regress/digress

 

[Alabaster]

i think the op is right for the most part....

it is unnecessary to have that much money...

How much money?

So, King's kids should hand over their wealth? Actually the word tells us that the wealth of the wicked is turned over to the righteous.

Proverbs 13:22 NLT
Good people leave an inheritance to their grandchildren,
but the sinner’s wealth passes to the godly.

they should live humbly like Jesus....

Humilty doesn't subtract from living in God's abundance.

money is hard to come by....

We, as well as our spiritual shepherds work for it.

I agree they should have a fair salary , but if there is a man devoid of resources and the pastor has more than enough there is something wrong....

This is ridiculous. We are to help each other. What a pastor makes for his calling doesn't have to do with someone else's financial woes. Christians who find themselves in dire straits should receive help and advice from their fellow believers, and maybe even the pastor, but why does that mean the pastor's salary is wrong?

 

[Oats]

How much money?

So, King's kids should hand over their wealth? Actually the word tells us that the wealth of the wicked is turned over to the righteous.

Proverbs 13:22 NLT
Good people leave an inheritance to their grandchildren,
but the sinner’s wealth passes to the godly.







Humilty doesn't subtract from living in God's abundance.



We, as well as our spiritual shepherds work for it.



This is ridiculous. We are to help each other. What a pastor makes for his calling doesn't have to do with someone else's financial woes. Christians who find themselves in dire straits should receive help and advice from their fellow believers, and maybe even the pastor, but why does that mean the pastor's salary is wrong?

you seem to believe your logic is superior to mine

guess what....

it is

you know more....you are above reproach

and don't get disrespectful and haughty

thats the problem with a pastor making multi millions


why should they

it's the word of God


all money should go to the ministry

writing a 1 hour speech (mostly improv) every week is good when you do it for God


but it's not worth a million dollars

-----

so i regress/digress

money isn't necessary to be a good minister....

your first order of business should be to glorify God

money or no money

lets not talk about this...

 

[theLords]

This question: Why don't [some] pastors and laypeople follow Philippians 2:3? is simply an unanswerable one. No one but God can judge another's heart. Whenever I get tempted to judge the way another person uses their money I put myself in their place. What if the Lord desired to lavish me with money? What if I went from mall brands to designer brands? I'm not flashy in the least, but I love getting my nails done. I would love to roll around in a Lexus. Good things are expensive. Designer clothing is over priced, but only to a certain extent, it truly has a better/higher quality. Would I spend 700 hundred on a pair of jeans. No way, but I maybe 70. Right now my limit is 10.

I would feel extremely lousy if someone judged me in this same manner if it was me that was blessed financially.

With that said this question is like asking:

Why do Christians judge others?
Why do "Christians" kill abortion doctors?
Why do Christians not live according to the Bible?

:dunno

No one is perfect and everyone has their area of weakness. For that pastor, it could possibly be financial (possibly- the blessings may truly be from the Lord, who's to say that pastor doesn't give money to the poor church members in secret?), but for one of his church members their area of weakness may be alcohol. To then it could be asked, "Why do Christians not follow the [passage from the Bible] and get drunk?"

These questions simply point out a Christians area of weakness or sin. What good does that do?

 

[Pard]

Dunno, I only know two pastors myself. One works at Pratt and Whitney to bring home the bacon every week. The other lives in the country, drives an old car, and is always giving his own wealth to others (bought a church member a new van a few months ago out of his own pocket, NOT the church's). I don't know any pastor who doesn't follow Philippians 2:3, so I cannot answer it, but I would side with Alabaster on this one. Sound scripture to support and the other side seems to be making an emotional argument and nothing good comes from emotional arguments.

 

[handy]

I have strong emotions about this subject, because I've actually worked in a church where the Pastor was driving around in a Caddy wearing expensive 3-piece suits and fancy watches, and they were automatically deducting 10% out of the day care center Director's paycheck, even though she was homeless at the time and lived in her sister's camper trailer with her husband and baby. Even though the church new her predicament, at no time did anyone from the church, least of all the pastor, offer to help her and her husband out financially or even with food or clothing for the baby.

However, I've also known some very rich people, people who live in very nice houses and drive Caddys and Lexus' and yet give upwards to 50% of their income to help the poor and needy and to Christian education for children whose families couldn't afford to send them to Christian schools and colleges. I once knew a man who lived in a nice house, drove nice cars who actually gave probably close to 90% of his income away. He held several patents on industry and technological inventions and was vastly wealthy. 10% of his income was more than enough to live large upon.

So, we must go back to the fact that we truly cannot judge another's heart.

The issue in Acts 5 wasn't that Ananias and Sapphira didn't give all the money to help the poor, but that they lied to the apostles and said that they did.

Peter in fact said, "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control?" There would not have been a problem if Ananias and Sapphira simply told the truth, that they were giving only a portion of the selling price...but they chose to become hypocritical liars, not to men, but to the Holy Spirit.

I think this makes the issue about how Christians should handle their money pretty clear...give cheerfully and honestly, rather than under compulsion or hypocritically.

When someone is in the wrong when it comes to money, it will come out...like in the case of a pastor who drove a Caddy wearing a $1000 Italian suit paid for in part by the money of a woman with a baby living in a camper trailer.

 

[Alabaster]

you seem to believe your logic is superior to mine

guess what....

it is

you know more....you are above reproach

and don't get disrespectful and haughty

I'll just skip over that, shall I?

thats the problem with a pastor making multi millions


why should they

it's the word of God


all money should go to the ministry

writing a 1 hour speech (mostly improv) every week is good when you do it for God

That is not what the bible says.

Pastors who preach do a lot more than write a sermon. They lead, they pray, they do warfare over us, they live their lives before us. Get real.

but it's not worth a million dollars

If a large church that has many tithers and givers considers paying their pastor a million dollars, which would be a small fraction of what they take in from among the members, it certainly is a lot of money but there is nothing wrong with it.

money isn't necessary to be a good minister....

your first order of business should be to glorify God

money or no money

lets not talk about this...

Money surely isn't necessary to be a good minister, but a congregation who has a great pastor or pastors will pay him/them well. That is glorifying God.

He sends the pastors. He will favour those who obey Him and lead well.

 

[D4Christ]

I'm curious...I wonder how many of these super rich pastors had their wealth before they headed these churches. It is one thing to make your own money. It is another to become super rich because you made that money off the backs of the members who support you. I think I could make a lot of money too if I had consistent income to play with each week.

For those pastors who, once in their positions, suddenly had the extra income to play around with stocks and significantly increase their income to the point their money began to make money.....and...they did not share this information with their congregation...you know... how to get rich or where to invest...then shame on them. Most financial advice I hear some mega pastors give is about faith and giving more of your income to "God" to make more income. I can bet that when they give checks to their investors it is good business and not faith that earns them interest. Just once, I would like to hear a pastor say, "This is where I invest my money and this is how much you need to get a good return" or "write this number down and call these people" or "this is the company I am investing in."

I am not hating, if you know how to make money then so be it....even unbelievers can get rich since the principles of money work the same. But don't act like a bank, with tithes investing other peoples money and growing your own income by leaps and bounds. It seems dishonest to me.

2 cents
Dee

 

[Alabaster]

I'm curious...I wonder how many of these super rich pastors had their wealth before they headed these churches. It is one thing to make your own money. It is another to become super rich because you made that money off the backs of the members who support you. I think I could make a lot of money too if I had consistent income to play with each week.

'Off the backs of the members who support you'? It is our duty to support our pastors! It isn't a hardship to obey God---it is a joy.

For those pastors who, once in their positions, suddenly had the extra income to play around with stocks and significantly increase their income to the point their money began to make money.....and...they did not share this information with their congregation...you know... how to get rich or where to invest...then shame on them. Most financial advice I hear some mega pastors give is about faith and giving more of your income to "God" to make more income. I can bet that when they give checks to their investors it is good business and not faith that earns them interest. Just once, I would like to hear a pastor say, "This is where I invest my money and this is how much you need to get a good return" or "write this number down and call these people" or "this is the company I am investing in."

Wow, I take it you are a betting (wo)man. If you came to our church, you would hear our pastors discuss their financial business openly...which they do not have to do, but like many wonderful pastors, they take being transparent seriously.

I am sure you are talking about bad ones, but I find there is far too much discussion on the faults of people who lead, and not enough encouraging speech regarding those who lead well.

I am not hating, if you know how to make money then so be it....even unbelievers can get rich since the principles of money work the same. But don't act like a bank, with tithes investing other peoples money and growing your own income by leaps and bounds. It seems dishonest to me.

I have never, ever witnessed that done. Who does that?

 

[pjt]

My suggestion is find another church if you find the pastor to be unrespectable. And after that just leave it all to God. God is watching & taking account. We can trust Him in that. Personally I have enormous respect for pastors like Zac Poonen from India. He is an excellent Bible based pastor and has been in the ministry most of his life (he`s an old man now) but has never asked for money from his congregation. The reason is he does not want people to get distracted from the Gospel by questioning his motives or the motive of the church. He doesn`t want to taint the Gospel with money or appearances of greed. He believes his job is to share the Gospel which he received freely, not to make money off the Gospel that he didn`t have to pay anything for to receive. Although I don`t fully agree with all Rick Warren teaches, he also does not personally receive any money from the church. He lives off his book sales which makes him a very wealthy man but he could be super wealthy if he took a salary from the church. I grew up in a small town where the offering of small churches just covered the bills of the church and church material so the pastors all had full time jobs outside of the church. Some got a very small salary but nothing they could live on. It was just pocket money literally. They were ministering purely out of their love for God and desire to share that love with others not for the money. And they still found time to visit the sick, the grieving, members of the church, and the lost in the community. I really respect pastors like this. However, I`m not against full time pastors receiving housing and a salary but like you, I think it should be in moderation so the Gospel is not tainted. And I also think if these pastors receive a salary they shouldn`t be passing/delegating all their work on to the lay people who do it for free. These pastors need to be available to their congregation to visit them and have them in their homes. When I was growing up the pastor came to our home to eat and we went to his. If someone had a problem the pastor said "call me" not during his business hours but at his home. Pastors need to know and care for their flock by name in my opinion.

 

[theophilus3213]

This isn't a question about christianity, but about some of the followers.

I went to a pretty large church, not very long ago. It was pretty interesting, actually, because as a member of the worship team, I played for a combined number [3 morning services] of around 8,000-9,000 people. The staff of the church were [to be honest] rather "glorified". An Assemblies of God church, they believe the bible fully. However, if you must believe and agree with every verse in the bible, and you have a certain lifestyle, can you truly follow this verse?

The pastor of the church makes an extravegant amount of money and lives in the most expensive gated community in my city. Some argue that "he is the head of a 'big business', and needs to be compensated for what he does". Other similar arguments may be made, but the bottom line is one of "defending his wage". He has become so "idolized" that he has to have body guards standing there when he greets the people. Now, he DOES choose to drive a modest truck around, so I'm not trying to completely bash him, but one has to wonder about [not just him, but others] how anyone, especially in church leadership, couldn't see this as a problem. Look at the following:



Pastors are supposed to be "leading their flock", so to speak, . . . but I have to wonder about any pastor who allows himself to be SO overly paid that he can afford such an extravegant living, . . . especially when there are undoubtably MANY in their congregation who barely survive, financially. . . . .and there are people on the streets starving.

There is a certain level of money that a person needs to live a decent life. I wouldn't take that away from anyone, . . . but for "servants of the Lord", there must be something above "just business". Excess shouldn't be lavashed upon yourself while others struggle. It isn't as though THIS level of pastor has to run each part of the church, like small church pastors do. They will have teams of financial wizards to do that. The pastor's part is pretty much the same as any other. Study and prepare for the message, . . . visit sick people in the hospital, etc.

What is your opinion of this?

Does this church have a homeless program? Do they have a fund to help the poor with? How much money does the church give to charities? there is nothing wrong with being rich! Solomon was rich, David was rich, Abraham was rich, Jacob was rich, Job was rich, these men were given their riches by God himself! so there is no sin in being rich. But rich people must be good stewards of what God has given them.

But it is a sin to envy someone else. Are you sure that you are not just jeolous of him?

shaloam