Bible Study Why I believe the King James Bible is the true word of God

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brandplucked said:
Hi Brutus, it is obvious from the implications of your remarks that you do not believe any Bible or any text in any language is now the infallible, complete and true words of God. If I am wrong (which I am not) then please name precisely what your final written authority is, and tell us where we can get a copy.

Secondly, you ask about letting God reveal Himself in His way. As I understand the Bible, God's way of revealing Himself is through His written words. Now if we have a hundred different bible versions out there all teaching very different things in hundreds of passages, then this results only in confusion. Is this God's way?

Doesn't the Bible speak about how in the last days many shall turn away from the truth and depart from the faith? Mine does. Haven't you read the latest polls and Barna research about how shallow and anti-biblical the views of many Christians are today?

I will be glad to post specifics if you wish.

Do you believe any Bible or any text is the inspired, infallible word of God? If so, then why are you defending all these contradictory and perverted bible versions?

If you want specifics on which doctrines are perverted in the new versions, I can provide several examples if you wish.

In and by His sovereign grace,

Will K

1.What is my final written athority? I don't seek a final written authority for one reason. No language we have now will tell us exactly what the original manuscripts said. However, several translations will tell you what you need to know.

Such as "Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind." or "Love your neighbor as yourself."

The only final authority I need is God.

2. How does God reveal himself? I agree that God often chooses to reveal himslef through the Bible and in fact that the Bible teaches us to study his word earnestly. I don't agree that he can only reveal himself through one translation. Doesn't one limit God's power with such a belief? Plus we also know that God speaks to individuals through means other than the Bible. That is why He gives some the Gift of knowledge, is it not?

3. Do I believe there is an infallible word of God? Yes, but only the original Greek and Hebrew. Unfortunately, we don't have those, so we as man must use the Bible as we have it now. I'll agree, some translation are heresies such as the TNIV and the NWT. However, as I said before, I doubt that God is only going to reveal his ways through the KJV.

4. Is God's way the way of Confusion? Can a house divided against itself stand? Yet is that not what Christians do when we have a squable over which translation is best?

5. Have I seen the latest polls? Polls are not needed to see that the Church is growing weaker. So why then divide the church by arguing which translation is best. Is it not better to agree with what on the truths we have been taught that are relevant to each translation?

6. Why do I support contradictory Bibles? I wasn't aware I did. I support the truth of God. I agree that as more translation come, more people think that they have the more correct truth, and I agree that is sad.

Brand, I do indeed greive with you over the fact that the Church is becoming more and more apathetic. However, I do know of a way that we can still live by God's word and not have to have a set translation.

A. 2 Timothy 2:15
I study all translations and trust in God to reveal what his truth is.

B. Proverbs 3:5-6
I let God be the one who Guides me. I do learn his ways through studying his word, but as I said I don't think God can only teach us through one translation

C. Psalms 119:11
If I keep what God has told me in my heart, God will speak through me in whatever way He chooses.

Having one translation would be nice, but I'd rather not let the lack of one stop me from living out the Great commission. I hope you can now see where I'm coming from.
 
No Inerrant Bible or text :-(

Hi Cube, well, it is obvious by your own admission that you do not believe The Bible IS now the inerrant, inspired and complete word of God. This was my point. Most Christians today do not believe The Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God. Congratulations! You are in the majority and have a large following. Where your present path will take you, God only knows, but I am not traveling with you on that journey. I have the true words of God in the King James Bible and they are available for all who have eyes to see.

God has not lied to us. He has preserved His words and in His mercy, He put them into the English language. To whom much has been given, much is required.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Will K
 
"There is No Inerrant Bible"

Hi Brutus, I just got done writing this article. It ties in to what you were saying about how weak the church is today. I believe the Bible version issue has a great deal to do with it.

God bless,

Will


"There is No Infallible Bible"

Most Christians today do NOT believe The Bible IS the inerrant and infallible word of God.

This statement may seem shocking at first, and many pastors and Christians will give the knee-jerk reaction saying that the do believe the Bible IS the infallible word of God. However, upon further examimation, it will soon be discovered that when they speak of an inerrant Bible, they are not referring to something that actually exists anywhere on this earth. They are talking about a mystical Bible that exists only in their imaginations; and each person's particular version differs from all the others.

God said: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD." Amos 8:11

The Lord Jesus Christ also stated in Luke 18:8 "Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

The apostle Paul wrote concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST..." 2 Thessalonians 2:3

The number of professing Christians who do not believe in a "hold it in your hands and read" type of inspired Bible has steadily increased over the years since the flood of multiple-choice, conflicting and contradictory modern bible versions began to appear about 100 years ago.

The following testimonies about the character of Evangelicalism today were made by key Evangelical leaders. The irony is that these same men are part of the problem they lament. Each of these men has been guilty of endorsing modern bible versions.

"MORE AND MORE ORGANIZATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS HISTORICALLY COMMITTED TO AN INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE HAVE BEEN EMBRACING AND PROPAGATING THE VIEW THAT THE BIBLE HAS ERRORS IN IT. This movement away from the historic standpoint has been most noticeable among those often labeled neo-evangelicals. This change of position with respect to the infallibility of the Bible is widespread and has occurred in evangelical denominations, Christian colleges, theological seminaries, publishing houses, and learned societies" (Harold Lindsell, former vice-president and professor Fuller Theological Seminary and Editor Emeritus of Christianity Today, The Battle for the Bible, 1976, p. 20).

"WITHIN EVANGELICALISM THERE ARE A GROWING NUMBER WHO ARE MODIFYING THEIR VIEWS ON THE INERRANCY OF THE BIBLE SO THAT THE FULL AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE IS COMPLETELY UNDERCUT. But is happening in very subtle ways. Like the snow lying side-by-side on the ridge, the new views on biblical authority often seem at first glance not to be very far from what evangelicals, until just recently, have always believed. But also, like the snow lying side-by-side on the ridge, the new views when followed consistently end up a thousand miles apart. What may seem like a minor difference at first, in the end makes all the difference in the world ... compromising the full authority of Scripture eventually affects what it means to be a Christian theologically and how we live in the full spectrum of human life" (Francis Schaeffer, The Great Evangelical Disaster, 1983, p. 44).

George Barna, president of Barna Research Group, reported that a study exploring the religious beliefs of the 12 largest denominations in America highlights the downward theological drift that has taken place in Christian churches in recent years. The study found that an alarmingly high number of church members have beliefs that fall far short of orthodox Christianity. ONLY 41 PERCENT OF ALL ADULTS SURVEYED BELIEVED IN THE TOTAL ACCURACY OF THE BIBLE. Only 40 percent believed Christ was sinless, and only 27 percent believed Satan to be real.

Of the Baptists surveyed 57 percent said they believed that works are necessary in order to be saved, 45 percent believed Jesus was not sinless, 44 percent did not believe that the Bible is totally accurate, and 66 percent did not believe Satan to be a real being. Barna said, "The Christian body in America is immersed in a crisis of biblical illiteracy."

What Christians really believe

A book by George A. Marsden, "Reforming Fundamentalism" quotes a survey of student belief at one of the largest Evangelical seminaries in the US. The poll indicated that 85% of the students "do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture."

This book also lists the results of a poll conducted by Jeffery Hadden in 1987 of 10,000 American clergy. They were asked whether they believed that the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant Word of God in faith, history, and secular matters: 95% of Episcopalians, 87% of Methodists, 82% of Presbyterians, 77% of American Lutherans, and 67% of American Baptists said "No."

The Barna Research Group reported in 1996 that among American adults generally: 58% believe that the Bible is "totally accurate in all its teachings"; 45% believe that the Bible is "absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally."

"Support dropped between that poll and another taken in 2001. Barna reported in 2001 that: 41% of adults strongly agrees that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches."

"Seminary students, future pastors and leaders in the church, show very little support for the inerrancy of the Bible position. What does that foretell about the future of the church? Undoubtedly, just as the poll results show in the 1996 - 2001 time frame, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE BELIEVING THE BIBLE IS INERRANT WILL DROP."

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/article ... ents.shtml

According to pollster George Barna:

* Less than 10 percent of American Christians actually posses a biblical worldview.

* Two out of three born-again believers assert there is no such thing as absolute moral truth.

Indeed, ideas do have consequences and today, we are reaping the consequences of a humanist worldview that is based on moral relativism that says there is no right or wrong, situational ethics; the end justifies the means, pluralism; all religions and ideas are equal, and tolerance; no one is to speak from a worldview based on moral absolutes. Unfortunately, the desire to be non-judgmental and tolerant is now a growing problem among Christian students, thus causing them to reject biblical truth.

The 1994 Churched Youth Survey conducted by the Barna Research Group for the Josh McDowell Ministry revealed the following facts through a scientifically designed process that randomly selected youth groups from thousands of churches throughout the U.S. and Canada. Over 3,700 youth were extensively and confidentially surveyed. The participants were youth involved in church activities and who overwhelmingly identified their parents as loving and their family experience as positive. This survey reveals the same troubling data as does the national PEERS test results.

The Churched Youth Survey revealed the following:

* Only 44% asserted that humans are capable of grasping the meaning of truth

* 57% could not even say that an objective standard of truth exists.

* 85% are likely to reason "just because it's wrong for you doesn't mean its wrong for me."

* Only 29% disagreed with the statement: "When it comes to matters of ethics, truth means different things to different people; no one can be absolutely positive they have the truth."

* Only 38% disagreed with the statement: "Nothing can be known for certain except the things that you experience in your life."

No absolute truth

The explosion of modern versions has encouraged the student to pick and choose his own preferred readings and has created a tendency to treat every Bible lightly and to look upon none as the final words of God.

Sam Kobia, Secretary, World Council of Churches, ENI 1-23-04:"Having a variety of translations available encourages the Bible to be read in a plural and ecumenical way. HAVING A VARIETY OF TRANSLATIONS AVAILABLE IS A PRECIOUS TOOL IN THE STRUGLE AGAINST RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM." (Caps are mine)

Here are some excerpts from a Wall Street Journal, editorial page, that appeared on the internet in July of 2004. It is an article written by Dale Buss, titled "Christian Teens? Not Very"

Mr. Buss writes: "It turns out that, while they may profess the faith and indeed love Jesus, the vast majority of Christian teenagers in this country actually hold beliefs fundamentally antithetical... some leaders believe that mushy doctrine among the younger generation ranks as the No. 1 crisis facing American Christendom today."

"About one-third of American teenagers claim they're "born again" believers, according to data gathered over the past few years by Barna Research Group, the gold standard in data about the U.S. Protestant church, and 88% of teens say they are Christians. About 60% believe that "the Bible is totally accurate in all of its teachings." And 56% feel that their religious faith is very important in their life."

"Yet, Barna says, slightly more than half of all U.S. teens also believe that Jesus committed sins while he was on earth. About 60% agree that enough good works will earn them a place in heaven, in part reflecting a Catholic view, but also flouting Protestantism's central theme of salvation only by grace. About two-thirds say that Satan is just a symbol of evil, not really a living being. Only 6% of all teens believe that there are moral absolutes--and, most troubling to evangelical leaders, only 9% of self-described born-again teens believe that moral truth is absolute."

"When you ask even Christian kids, 'How can you say A is true as well as B, which is the antithesis of A?,' their typical response is, 'I'm not sure how it works, but it works for me,'" says George Barna, president of the Ventura, Calif.-based research company. "It's personal, pragmatic and fairly superficial."

Mr. Buss continues in his article: "Some commentators produce even more startling statistics on the doctrinal drift of America's youth. NINETY ONE PERCENT OF BORN AGAIN TEENAGERS surveyed a few years ago proclaimed that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH, says the Rev. Josh McDowell, a Dallas-based evangelist and author. More alarmingly, that number had risen quickly and steadily from just 52% of committed Christian kids in 1992 who denied the existence of absolute truth. A slight majority of professing Christian kids, Mr. McDowell says, also now say that the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ never occurred."

"There's a greater disconnect now than ever in the history of the church in America between what a Christian young person says they are and what they actually believe," says Mr. McDowell, who has ministered mainly to youth for more than 30 years. "Christianity is based on truth; Jesus said, 'I am the truth.' But you have an overwhelming majority even of Christian kids saying there is no absolute truth."

A popular New Age religious site that endorses all religions of the world is called Religious Tolerance. Org. (http://www.religioustolerance.org)

This site has some interesting comments regarding the doctrine of the inerrancy of the Bible. They ask: Does inerrancy really matter?

"From one standpoint, this doctrine is of great importance, because it determines, at a very fundamental level, how Christians approach Scripture."

"To most conservative theologians Biblical inerrancy and inspiration are fundamental doctrines. Unless the entire Bible is considered to be the authoritative word of God, then the whole foundation of their religious belief crumbles. If the Bible contains some errors, then conservative Christians feel that they would have no firm basis on which to base their doctrines, beliefs, morality and practices. The books of the Bible must be either inerrant, or be devoid of authority."

They continue: "To most liberal theologians, the Bible is not inerrant. They believe that its books were obviously written and edited by human authors: with limited scientific knowledge, who promoted their own specific belief systems, who attributed statements to God that are immoral by today's standards, who freely incorporated material from neighboring Pagan cultures, who freely disagreed with other Biblical authors." (Religious Tolerance.org)

What I personally found of great interest is the following comment in the same article. The people at Religious Tolerance noted: "Some Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians CONSIDER A PARTICULAR ENGLISH TRANSLATION TO BE INERRANT. THIS IS PARTICULARLY TRUE AMONG LAY MEMBERS IN THEIR BELIEFS ABOUT THE KING JAMES VERSION. But most conservatives believe that inerrancy only applies to the original, autograph copies of the various books of the Bible. None of the latter have survived to the present day. We only have access to a variety of manuscripts which are copies of copies of copies...An unknown number of errors are induced due to Accidental copying errors by ancient scribes or intentional changes and insertions into the text, made in order to match developing theology." (Religious Tolerance.org)

Most Christians who do not believe the King James Bible or any other version are now the inerrant, infallible, complete and pure words of God, define Inerrancy in the following manner: “When all the facts become known, they will demonstrate that the Bible IN ITS ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS and correctly interpreted is entirely true and never false in all it affirms, whether relative to doctrine or ethics or the social, physical or life sciences.†(P. D. Feinberg, s.v. “inerrancy, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology Inerrancy & the autographa.)

The usual tap dance performed by those who deny any Bible or any text in any language is now the inerrant, complete and infallible words of God is typified by the following quote: "Inerrancy applies to the autographa, not to copies or translations of Scripture. This qualification is made because we realize that errors have crept into the text during the transmission process. It is not an appeal to a “Bible which no one has ever seen or can see.†Such a charge fails to take into account the nature of textual criticism and the very high degree of certainty we possess concerning the original text of Scripture."

Well, this may sound very pious and good, but the undeniable fact is that this Christian scholar is talking about "a Bible no one has seen or can see".

As for this gentleman's "nature of textual criticism" is concerned, this so called "science" is a giant fraud and a pathetic joke played on the unsuspecting saints who might think these men actually know what they are doing. I have posted a series on the "science of textual criticism" that reveals the true nature of this hocus-pocus methodology of determining what God really said. You can see all parts of this study, starting with: http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/science.html

Here are some facts taken directly from the Holy Bible. You do not need to be a scholar or seminary student to get a grasp of what the Bible says about itself. You either believe God or you don't.

The Bible believer first looks to God and His word to determine what the Book says about itself.

The Bible cannot be clearer concerning it's preservation:

Isaiah 40:8: "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

Psalm 12:6-7: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Psalm 138:2: "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

Psalm 100:5: "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."

Psalm 33:11: "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations."

Psalm 119:152, 160: "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that Thou hast founded them for ever. ... thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Isaiah 59:21: "... My Spirit that is upon thee [Isaiah], and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

Matthew 5:17-18: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 24:35: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

John 10:35: "... the Scripture cannot be broken."

God has promised to preserve His wordS IN A BOOK here on this earth till heaven and earth pass away. He either did this and we can know where they are found today, or He lied and He lost some of them, and we can never be sure if what we are reading are the true words of God or not.

God's words are in a BOOK. Consider the following verses: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and NOTE IT IN A BOOK, that it may be for the time to come FOR EVER AND EVER." Isaiah 30:8

"Seek ye out of THE BOOK of the LORD, and READ: no one of these shall vail...for my mouth it hath commanded..." Isaiah 34:16

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of THE BOOK it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart." Psalm 40:7-8

"And if any man shall take away from THE WORDS OF THE BOOK of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK." Revelation 22:19

I believe the King James Bible is the inspired, inerrant and complete words of God for the following reasons:

#1 The Old Testament is based solely on the Hebrew Masoretic texts, in contrast to the NASB, NIV, ESV, Holman CSB and other modern versions that frequently reject the Hebrew readings. The Old Testament oracles of God were committed to the Jews and not to the Syrians, the Greeks or the Latins. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-2) The Lord Jesus Christ said not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

See my two articles on how the modern versions all reject the Hebrew texts.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos.html http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/NIVapos2.html

#2 The King James Bible alone is without proven error, and this in spite of intense opposition and criticism from the Bible correctors and modern scholarship.

"Seek ye out of THE BOOK of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail..." Isaiah 34:16.

#3 I believe in the Sovereignty and Providence of Almighty God. God knew beforehand how He would mightily use the King James Bible to become THE Bible of the English speaking people who would carry the gospel to the ends of the earth during the great modern missionary outreach from the late 1700's to the 1950's. The King James Bible was used as the basis for hundreds of foreign language translations, and English has become the first truly global language in history.

See article Can a Translation Be Inspired? http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

#4 The King James Bible is always a true witness and never lies or perverts sound doctrine. This is in contrast to all modern English version that do pervert sound doctrine in numerous verses and prove themselves to be false witnesses to the truth of God.

"Thy word is true from the beginning, and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119:160

"A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies." Proverbs 14:5

In contrast, all the modern versions like the NASB, NIV, NKJV, ESV contain proveable and serious doctrinal errors. See my article on No Doctrines Are Changed?:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/nodoctrine.html

#5 At every opportunity the King James Bible exalts the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ to His rightful place as the sinless, eternally only begotten Son of God who is to be worshipped as being equal with God the Father. All modern versions debase and lower the Person of Christ in various ways.

"GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16. (compare this verse in the NIV, NASB, ESV, and Holman) See also John 3:13; Luke 23:42, and 1 Corinthians 15:47.

See article on The Only Begotten Son

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/begotnSon.html

#6 The explosion of modern versions has encouraged the student to pick and choose his own preferred readings and has created a tendency to treat every Bible lightly and to look upon none as the final words of God.

The Bible itself prophesies that in the last days many shall turn away their ears from hearing the truth and the falling away from the faith will occur. The Lord Jesus asks: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD." Amos 8:11

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." Jeremiah 6:16

The new versions like the NIV, NASB, ESV, and Holman Standard all reject the Traditional Greek Text, and instead rely primarily on two very corrupt Greek manuscripts called Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. These so called "oldest and best" manuscripts also form the basis of all Catholic versions as well as the Jehovah Witness version.

See my article that shows what these two false witnesses actually say here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/oldbest.html

If you mistakenly think that all bibles are basically the same, I recommend you take a look at this site. It is in two parts, but very easy to read. It shows what is missing in most modern New Testaments.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

For an article showing that the true Historical position about the inerrancy of the Bible supports the King James Bible view, rather than the recent position of "the originals only" see:

http://www.geocities.com/avdefense1611/ ... ition.html

In and by His grace alone,

Will Kinney
 
Re: Pre-Christian Standardized Greek translation of the O.T.

Disappear! Oh please disappear!
 
Re: Pre-Christian Standardized Greek translation of the O.T.

thespunk said:
brandplucked said:
There are several different LXX versions around today and all of them are really horrible "translations".

Please inform us of your 'scholarly' credentials, so we may determine if you're qualified to make such claims and not...

brandplucked said:
Do you actually read Greek or are you just parroting stuff you got from other "experts"?

...parroting stuff you got from other "experts."

Spunk, that was the extent of your response??? Golly, looks like you just blew all my arguments out of the water. Well done.

By the way, I can read Greek and I do have a copy of the LXX that I consult very often in my studies.


"But they said, We will not walk therein" Jeremiah 6:16
 
brandplucked,

You have yet to answer my point that I will copy below.

The people who translated the KJV were HATERS of many doctrines that you believe in. They hated Protestants, of which I assume you are one. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you and God bless.

DIME Ministries said:
I still find it ironic that it is mainly Protestants who uphold the perfection of the King James Bible and consider it alone to be the Word of God and all others are inspired by Satan to lead people to hell when those who translated it were people who hated and killed Protestants due to their "heresy" doctrine.
 
DIME Ministries said:
[quote="DIME Ministries":ddf2c]I still find it ironic that it is mainly Protestants who uphold the perfection of the King James Bible and consider it alone to be the Word of God and all others are inspired by Satan to lead people to hell when those who translated it were people who hated and killed Protestants due to their "heresy" doctrine.
[/quote:ddf2c]

What in the world are you talking about? The KJV translators WERE Protestants, have you never read about Lancealot Andrews? His work on baptism is extremely prot. The translators were a group of High Church styled anglicans and 5 point Calvinists. You really need to get your facts in order, the Anglican Church is and was prot.

I don't consider the KJV perfect and the fact that you keep saying so many of us who use the KJV and the KJV only do consider it perfect shows you lack of understanding on the topic. By linking us with Peter Ruckman and his false and extreme view of double inspiration, you detract for the real fact of the matter.

THE FACTS OF THE MATTER:
  • 1. The Bible is inspirated and inerrant, even the very words.
    2. The Bible is the supreme standard or rule of faith.
    3. The Bible is the preserved word of God found in the Old Testament Traditional Masoretic Hebrew Text that underlies the King James Bible, and the New Testament Traditional Greek Text that underlies the King James Bible.
    4. The Bible is now translated into English and found in the King James Bible.
    5. The Bible in English is the KJV because it is translated from the providentially preserved texts.

It is the lip service Christians give the doctrine of inspirated and inerrancy of the Scriptures that has resulted in modern verisons. No one who uses a modern verison can agree to the top 5 points I listed, it's real simple folks, do you agree with the 5 points or not? The modern verison are not made up of one manuscript and contain 'corrections' as some editors list form many false manuscripts. What makes them false? They lack key chpt., verses and have not been used by the church at large. Do you want a Bible like that?
 
Re: Pre-Christian Standardized Greek translation of the O.T.

Disappear! Oh please disappear!
 
Jason said:
DIME Ministries said:
[quote="DIME Ministries":3792a]I still find it ironic that it is mainly Protestants who uphold the perfection of the King James Bible and consider it alone to be the Word of God and all others are inspired by Satan to lead people to hell when those who translated it were people who hated and killed Protestants due to their "heresy" doctrine.

What in the world are you talking about? The KJV translators WERE Protestants, have you never read about Lancealot Andrews? His work on baptism is extremely prot. The translators were a group of High Church styled anglicans and 5 point Calvinists. You really need to get your facts in order, the Anglican Church is and was prot. [/quote:3792a]

Thanks Jason for answering this unbelievably silly accusation made by DIME. I wonder if he has ever read the 39 Articles of the Anglican Church that most of the KJB translators held to in their day. The Anglican church of 1611 was very different than the one around today which has apostacized to the point of unrecognition.

I don't believe a Christian or a Bible translator has to have all his ducks in a row on every doctrinal truth. We all see through a glass darkly, but every true Christian will hold to certain fundamental truths, like the Deity of Christ, His substitutionary death for our sins, His resurrection and second coming.

Does God need perfect men to write the Bible? I hardly think so. Look at David, Solomon, and Peter for starters. I am sometimes amazed by how unbiblical the thinking is of some who say they are Christians.

I do however disagree with you on one thing. I do believe the King James Bible is perfect and without proven error of any kind. I really believe it is God's preserved and infallible words in the English language.

In and by His sovereign grace,

Will K[/quote]
 
Re: Pre-Christian Standardized Greek translation of the O.T.

thespunk said:
brandplucked said:
By the way, I can read Greek and I do have a copy of the LXX that I consult very often in my studies.

Great. I'm happy for you that you can read Greek. However, this does not make you an expert on the Greek language. Care to provide better credentials which establish you as an 'expert' on Greek so you can make claims about the LXX being a horrible translation?

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because you were calling into question the other person's credentials. You know, that whole do unto others things.

Spunk, please be specific about where and what I supposedly said about another person's credentials. I do not know what you are referring to.

I am not an expert in Greek, nor do I need to be. I have never been to seminary, and every day I thank God that He never led me to go there. I probably would have come out having wasted my money and lost my faith like most do who go there.


I find it interesting that after this whole post about "There is no inerrant Bible" and all the examples I gave, that you would chose to focus in on my "expertise" in Greek. You really have missed the forest for the trees, haven't you?

Tell us, do you believe any Bible or any text in any language is the inerrant, complete and infallible words of God? Please state your beliefs regarding the Bible.

Will K
 
Originals

Folks keep bringing up the originals only being inspired - interesting.

Can anybody show me where the srriptures say that only the originals were inspired?

Timothy had the scriptures (II Tim. 3:15) and according to II Tim. 3:16 all scripture is given by inspiration.

Did Timothy have the originals?

Did he have the scriptures?

Was what Timothy had inspired or not?

That's all I can write for now -

Gdo bless
 
Re: Pre-Christian Standardized Greek translation of the O.T.

Disappear! Oh please disappear!
 
Double inspiration

For those of you who do not believe in double inspiration then what do you do with Jeremiah 36? Were the words added in Jer. 36:32 inspired or just the "originals" that were written down and burned earlier? Just some food for thought.

One more time with feeling - what did Timothy have in II Tim. 3:15?

God bless
 
thespunk said:
Side note for those in this thread. It is a common debate tactic of those who hold the KJV-only or closely related positions to work towards turning the debate into issues about your position rather than their position.

Uh..., not quite, Spunk. The King James Bible believer holds the Biblical position that God really has kept His promises to preserve His inspired words in a Book we can hold in our hands and read, believing every word.

You, on the other hand, do not believe any Bible or any text in any language is the complete, infallible, inerrant words of God. It is really quite simple, and vastly important.

Then you go off on a rabbit trail about the "experts" in Greek. It it painfully obvious that you don't know squat about the so called experts. They constantly disagree with each other. Not one of the following versions, which all were put together by "experts" agree with any other in both text and meaning in scores and scores of verses - the NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NKJV or Holman Standard. They all use different Hebrew, Syriac, Vulgate and LXX readings (none of them agree all the way through with any other), and they disagree in meaning in hundreds (literally hundreds) of verses. Get a clue about your "experts".

And none of these experts believes that there exists such a thing as an inerrant, infallible and inspired Bible on this earth.

THAT is your position, and we King James Bible believers rebuke it as apostasy and unbelief.

Will K
 
Re: Originals

AVBunyan said:
Folks keep bringing up the originals only being inspired - interesting.

Can anybody show me where the srriptures say that only the originals were inspired?
Can anyone show me where the scriptures say The Good News Bible isn't inspired? Both that and the KJV are translations of God's inspired word. And neither, by the inherent nature of the process of translation and the imprecision of language, are the "perferct" translation, as such a thing does not exist.

Timothy had the scriptures (II Tim. 3:15) and according to II Tim. 3:16 all scripture is given by inspiration.

Did Timothy have the originals?
He didn't have the copies in the original hand of the author. He did have the writing in the original language, the original words, the original exact letters of the inspired author. We do not have any of this, but only a good approximation.

Did he have the scriptures?
Yes.

Was what Timothy had inspired or not?
Yes. But the authors of the KJV were not.
 
Perfect Bible

Well, it looks like you guys have thoroughly shot down all our arguments for an inerrant Bible. I guess no such thing exists afterall. Thanks for your well researched and soundly reasoned rebuttals. I will now have to re-evaluate the nature of this God who said he never lies. He must have been just kidding. Thanks so much for causing me to see the error of my ways. How foolish of me to have thought that God really meant what He said about preserving His words. I now understand that the best we can hope for is a ball-park approximation of the general idea of what He may or may not have originally inspired. You guys have been a real help to my faith.

May the Farce be with you,

Will
 
Flattened

Yes, bro. Will, I agree these folks just flattened our belief in an innerrant, and infalliblle Bible. I feel so much better now that I cannot know if there is a true word of God around. I feel so safe and secure knowing that I now fit in with the world on this issue of no final authority - now I can become my own final authority!!! Goodie, goodie!.

It is a shame that I didn't run across these folks early in my Christian life - then I could have gone through the last 22 years not knowing if there was a real innerrant bible - plus I could have been part of the "in crowd" that is able to correct God's words.

And finally I could have been such a blessing to the pope for he would have been pleased to know another Protestant was pursuaded that the King James Bible was not the true word of God. Oh, how excited this pope must be knowing he has the majority of Protestants reading his bibles and not even know it.

Fellas - you have just been nominated to the "Yea, hath God said." Hall of Fame society.

Your "set straigth servant"

Have a nice day now!