WHY INFANT BAPTISM.

[JLB]

This thread will be dedicated to Infant baptism.

Welcome and please use scripture.
wondering Walpole Tradidi



God Bless, JLB

 

[WIP]

I posted this in the other thread but it applies here too. The question of infant baptism is one that incites division among Protestants as well. I appreciate that we have Catholic members that are willing to discuss this topic. I think this will be an interesting discussion so long as all contributors remember to keep things civil with humility. We don't have to be adversaries but remembering to respect each others' positions in our walk with the Lord, we should strive toward unity within the Body of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I posted this in the other thread but it applies here too. The question of infant baptism is one that incites division among Protestants as well. I appreciate that we have Catholic members that are willing to discuss this topic. I think this will be an interesting discussion so long as all contributors remember to keep things civil with humility. We don't have to be adversaries but remembering to respect each others' positions in our walk with the Lord, we should strive toward unity within the Body of Christ.

Hi WIP,
yes, we are all civil persons here.
I do agree that we need a dedicated thread....
Hope to see you here.

 

[Tradidi]

The reason why infants need to baptised is rather simple.

1. Jesus said in John 3:3 : "Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

2. Jesus explains in John 3:5 that we are born again through baptism.

Putting one and two together, whoever is not baptised cannot see the kingdom of God. This includes infants.

We see examples of this in Scripture where whole households were baptised. But if you were looking for a verse that explicitly says "thou shalt baptise infants" then you're out of luck. Scripture is the Church's textbook for "the learned and stable", not a standalone cookbook for "the unlearned and unstable" (2 Peter 3:16).

 

[JLB]

The reason why infants need to baptised is rather simple.

1. Jesus said in John 3:3 : "Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

2. Jesus explains in John 3:5 that we are born again through baptism.

Putting one and two together, whoever is not baptised cannot see the kingdom of God. This includes infants.

We see examples of this in Scripture where whole households were baptised. But if you were looking for a verse that explicitly says "thou shalt baptise infants" then you're out of luck. Scripture is the Church's textbook for "the learned and stable", not a standalone cookbook for "the unlearned and unstable" (2 Peter 3:16).

Jesus never mentioned baptism in Hs dialog with Nicodemus.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6


Baptism is not mentioned here. But you know that, which is why you state your opinion and tag your opinion with a scripture reference, rather than posting the scripture and the context.

As you can see from the actual scripture, the conversation is about birth.
Baptism is about death. Dying to this would; Baptized into His death.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:3



Jesus is challenging the typical Jewish mindset of that culture which believed that being a natural descendant of Abraham caused them to be a part of God’s kingdom; ie sons of God.

Jesus plainly tells him you must be born again.

There are two types of birth mentioned here: Natural Birth and Spiritual Birth.

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Spiritual birth takes place within by the Spirit.


Spiritual birth occurs when a person believes, and therefore obeys the Gospel.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Peter, the one who you claim is the first pope, says it this way —


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


Not when some pours water over a baby’s head.


Dedicating a baby to the Lord, whereby both parents openly desire to serve God and raise their child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, SO THAT when he is old enough to know right from wrong, he will choose Christ.

This is a beautiful thing to do, but has nothing at all with being born again.






JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Tradidi

Better to answer your post here.
You said:

I gave you the link to refute this idea. Here is one of those quotes of the Early Church Fathers, Origen in 248 AD:

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]). — Infant Baptism

You can find more quotes at the link I gave.

What Augustine later believed is irrelevant, since he speaks as a private theologian, and since the Early Church Fathers already agreed on the necessity of baptism, even for infants, as did St. Augustine.

I'm rather shocked to think that you believe Augustine is irrelevant since he was one of the greatest minds in Catholicism...some believe THE greatest mind.

Personally I don't care for him. He changed his mind on free will and he taught that unbaptized babies went to hell. He believed in predestination and this is how the reformed church came about in 1,500AD...due to the reformers believing the doctrines that Augustine taught.
It cannot be denied that the CC accepted his teachings on the imputation of Original Sin and the danger babies were in because they were born with PERSONAL sin.

You quote Origin in the year 248AD. As I stated change had been taking place from the beginning of the church.

My point is that AUGUSTINE changed the meaning of baptism for babies.
Please read the paragraph on AUGUSTINE.

Original sin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have seen many things being claimed about the Catholic Church that are simply nonsense (worshipping Mary, praying to statues, buying forgiveness, etc..) and I'm in the habit of not believing any of these accusations unless they can be proven. I consider the claim that the Catholic Church has changed it's official teaching as one of those fables that I have never seen proven.

If you claim that the Catholic Church is the first and original church, and do not accept that baptism has changed, then history means little to you.

The chapter in the Didache pertaining to baptism does NOT include infants.
Chapter 7:

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

source: http://www.thedidache.com/

Infants cannot fast for one or two days.

What has changed, and still can change today, is that some things which have not yet been defined are being discussed by theologians, with different opinions being allowed. When at some point a controversy arises the Church steps in and clarifies and defines the matter in question. Then the discussion is closed.

I'm beginning to see that you're one of those traditional Catholics that cannot accept that the church is changing. But I'm speaking of 2,000 years ago,,,not of today. ALL doctrine was not yet established at the time of the ECFs. Or do you believe it was?

I wonder if you know that the CC at times has considered changing the baptismal rite to make it for adults only? But it fears the backlash.

wondering said:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official teaching of the CC.

I disagree with this statement as well, but that's for another discussion.

Every little discussion does not require a separate thread.

What do YOU believe contains the true teaching of the CC?
(If not the CCC - which is the document referred to for answering any question regarding the Catholic faith).

 

[jerry63935]

he reason why infants need to baptised is rather simple.

1. Jesus said in John 3:3 : "Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

2. Jesus explains in John 3:5 that we are born again through baptism.

Putting one and two together, whoever is not baptised cannot see the kingdom of God. This includes infants.

i fail to see how you come to this conclusion . there is nos scripture that says that

 

[Tradidi]

Jesus never mentioned baptism in Hs dialog with Nicodemus.

Baptism is not mentioned here. But you know that, which is why you state your opinion and tag your opinion with a scripture reference, rather than posting the scripture and the context.

i fail to see how you come to this conclusion . there is nos scripture that says that

It seems that God is kind of predictable in a way, since He always starts new things in the same way — with “water and the Spirit“. Consider the following:

1) The first creation came from the the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation (Genesis 1:1-2).

2) A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which “now saves us” (1 Peter 3:18-21).

3) The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Exodus 14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4).

4) Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ezekiel 36:25). Born again, I suspect.

5) Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Matthew 3:16; John 1:29).

6) Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“

7) When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptised people in the Jordan with his disciples (John 4:1-2).

8) At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting Peter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptised (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).

9) Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Peter 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).

Too bad many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists refuse to see it but the Bible is pretty clear about new birth through the sacrament of baptism. Jesus is not ambiguous in this matter and he is alluding quite clearly to new beginnings in the Old Testament. The Early Church is also very clear and so is the teaching of the Catholic Church today.

St. Augustine said, “Who is so wicked as to want to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by prohibiting their being baptised and born again in Christ?”

 

[jerry63935]

being baptised and born again in Christ?”

born again is a spiritual birth baptism follows salvation symbolic of the old man going into the watery grave and the new man resurrected. dont get me wrong baptism is of God BUT THE BLOOD CLEANSES US
1 Peter 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[Tradidi]

I'm rather shocked to think that you believe Augustine is irrelevant since he was one of the greatest minds in Catholicism...some believe THE greatest mind.

You should not be shocked as the same can be said of each and every individual theologian. What matters is what the Church has declared to be infallibly true, everything else is opinion. Some opinions are more weighty than others, but at the end of the day, even the greatest theologians have at times been wrong, were corrected, and humbly accepted that correction. As I said, to focus on one theologian having changed his opinion somewhere down the line is simply irrelevant to us today.

By the way, by far the greatest mind in the history of the Church was St. Thomas Aquinas. And if I am not mistaken, even he had to change his opinion on one or two occasions.

I'm beginning to see that you're one of those traditional Catholics that cannot accept that the church is changing. But I'm speaking of 2,000 years ago,,,not of today. ALL doctrine was not yet established at the time of the ECFs. Or do you believe it was?

I believe in the development of doctrine, not in the change of doctrine which you claimed has happened in the Catholic Church.

I wonder if you know that the CC at times has considered changing the baptismal rite to make it for adults only? But it fears the backlash.

The Catholic Church can change rites, heretics change doctrine.

What do YOU believe contains the true teaching of the CC?

Tradition

 

[Tradidi]

born again is a spiritual birth baptism follows salvation symbolic of the old man going into the watery grave and the new man resurrected. dont get me wrong baptism is of God BUT THE BLOOD CLEANSES US

You fail to distinguish between grace, the means by which Christ merited this grace for us (through the shedding of His Blood), and the means and conditions through we can obtain this grace (baptism).

Christ, by shedding His Blood, merited for us sanctifying grace, which we in faith receive through baptism, or, if we lost it through mortal sin, restore through confession.

Some people believe they have found a shortcut to receive sanctifying grace, but I prefer to stick with what Our Lord taught us, whether personally when He was with us on earth or through His Church, and which we see confirmed in Scripture.

 

[jerry63935]

You fail to distinguish between grace, the means by which Christ merited this grace for us (through the shedding of His Blood), and the means and conditions through we can obtain this grace (baptism).

Christ, by shedding His Blood, merited for us sanctifying grace, which we in faith receive through baptism, or, if we lost it through mortal sin, restore through confession.

Some people believe they have found a shortcut to receive sanctifying grace, but I prefer to stick with what Our Lord taught us, whether personally when He was with us on earth or through His Church, and which we see confirmed in Scripture.

really ? my Bible says in

EPHESIANS 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


no place does it say water baptism. it also tells us we are justified by faith by grace by the blood
romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


justified means declared not guilty declared Righteous just as if we never sinned

 

[Tradidi]

really ? my Bible says in
..

You should try a Catholic Bible, we have an even bigger smorgasbord:

justified by faith
Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ: that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)
For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. (Romans 3:28)
Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

justified by grace
Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:24)
That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting. (Titus 3:7)

justified by works
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? (James 2:21)
Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? (James 2:24)
And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? (James 2:25)

justified by His blood
Christ died for us. Much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)

justified by our words
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Matthew 12:37)

And if you can get your head around the fact that "saved by" means the same as "justified by", the options just keep coming:

saved by hope
For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? (Romans 8:24)

saved by water
Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:20)

saved by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost
Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost. (Titus 3:5)

saved by the Gospel
Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received and wherein you stand. By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 1-2)

saved by fire
If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

saved by His life
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son: much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10)

saved by words
Who shall speak to thee words whereby thou shalt be saved, and all thy house. (Acts 11:14)

saved by His name
Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

saved by Jesus
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world: but that the world may be saved by him. (John 3:17)

saved by perseverance
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved. (Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13)

A Protestant will pick one or two verses he likes and just ignore the others, a Catholic takes them all and arrives at the true doctrine of salvation.

 

[Tradidi]

justified means declared not guilty declared Righteous just as if we never sinned

Please don't take this personally, I'm thinking more about Luther here. I never understood how anyone could come up with such a stupid theory. As if God could be tricked into not noticing the filthy sinner hiding underneath a beautiful cloak. It reminds me of Matthew 23:27 : "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful but within are full of dead men's bones and of all filthiness."

What an insult to Almighty God this "Lutherferian" cloak theory!

 

[jerry63935]

Please don't take this personally, I'm thinking more about Luther here. I never understood how anyone could come up with such a stupid theory. As if God could be tricked into not noticing the filthy sinner hiding underneath a beautiful cloak. It reminds me of Matthew 23:27 : "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful but within are full of dead men's bones and of all filthiness."

What an insult to Almighty God this "Lutherferian" cloak theory!

luther had his good about him .i go by what scriptures say .. so why do you bring up luther ?its about salvation justified Glorified sanctified

 

[jerry63935]

You should try a Catholic Bible, we have an even bigger smorgasbord:

i use a Bible not any denomination but scriptures. a suggestion i am not into the names i use scripture

A Protestant will pick one or two verses he likes and just ignore the others, a Catholic takes them all and arrives at the true doctrine of salvation.

the name tag will either fall off going to heaven or burn off going to hell . how ever if you want preference the right who's wrong. i can go that route .

 

[WIP]

Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ezekiel 36:25). Born again, I suspect.

Thank you for this reference.

 

[Tradidi]

luther had his good about him .i go by what scriptures say .. so why do you bring up luther ?its about salvation justified Glorified sanctified

I bring up Luther because he's the one that invented this theory of "being declared righteous even though we're not". It's one of those traditions of men that nullify the word of God. If all we need is to be declared righteous even though we're not, what could possibly be the use and the meaning of being born again? And what use are all of those Scriptures that speak about the need to BE righteous. And why would Jesus urge us to BE perfect? It's all swept away and nullified by this theory of putting on a magic cloak and sneaking into heaven without anyone noticing how filthy we still are underneath.

This is what St. Peter had to say about men like Luther and their lies: "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)

 

[Tradidi]

i use a Bible not any denomination but scriptures. a suggestion i am not into the names i use scripture

If you're going to rely on the Bible only, you better make sure you have the correct one, as there are many different Bibles out there, ranging from authentic to pathetic. Consider for example Tyndale's bible:

Tunstall, Bishop of London, declared he could count more than 2,000 errors in Tyndale’s Bible “made in Germany”; whilst the learned Sir Thomas More, Lord Chancellor of England, found it necessary to write a treatise against it, and asserted that to “find errors in Tyndale’s book were like studying to find water in the sea”. — Where we got the Bible

 

[jerry63935]

I bring up Luther because he's the one that invented this theory of "being declared righteous even though we're not".

so you deny the book of romans the apostle paul writings ? i hate to break it to you BUT YOU ARE IN ERROR . i dont need a book of prayers i dont need a man called a priest .i have a high priest Jesus i can also approach the throne of Grace with Boldness to obtain mercy and help in time of need .i sure dont need confession. i can confess my sins and get forgiveness. i am righteous BY and THROUGH Jesus Christ who is my Righteousness . Might i add justified was not by luther .but by what Christ done at calvary