let me guess you have the correct Bible ..i am well aware of the work of Tyndale and others .how the catholic Church opposed them . for speaking the truth. in fact many of these men was burnt at the stake
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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WHY INFANT BAPTISM.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
this is a reference to works being tried by fire fleshly works wood hay stubble will not stand the fiery test Gold silver precious stones--works of true righteousness will stand the flames and be purified
It seems that God is kind of predictable in a way, since He always starts new things in the same way — with “water and the Spirit“. Consider the following:
1) The first creation came from the the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation (Genesis 1:1-2).
2) A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which “now saves us” (1 Peter 3:18-21).
3) The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Exodus 14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4).
4) Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ezekiel 36:25). Born again, I suspect.
5) Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Matthew 3:16; John 1:29).
6) Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“
7) When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptised people in the Jordan with his disciples (John 4:1-2).
8) At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meetingPeter stood up at Pentecost and said, “Repent, and be baptised (WATER) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy SPIRIT“ (Acts 2:38).
9) Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Peter 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).
Too bad many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists refuse to see it but the Bible is pretty clear about new birth through the sacrament of baptism. Jesus is not ambiguous in this matter and he is alluding quite clearly to new beginnings in the Old Testament. The Early Church is also very clear and so is the teaching of the Catholic Church today.
St. Augustine said, “Who is so wicked as to want to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by prohibiting their being baptised and born again in Christ?”
There is no doubt that water baptism is a biblical principle.
There is also two other baptisms that are biblical.
However, that’s not the discussion here. We are discussing Infant Baptism.
Water baptism is for believers. A person must believe, then they are baptized.
How is an infant supposed to believe, when they can’t even talk?
Again, pouring water over the head of a baby or even immersing a full grown adult in water is useless unless they believe.
So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Acts 8:34-38
Here is why we don’t baptize infants or anyone else for that matter;
This is the thing that hinders us —
- What hinders me from being baptized?”Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
A person must first believe with all their heart, then they are to be baptized.
Infants don’t understand words, nor do they believe.
JLB
It seems that God is kind of predictable in a way, since He always starts new things in the same way — with “water and the Spirit“. Consider the following:
1) The first creation came from the the earth which was covered with WATER and the SPIRIT hovered over the waters and from the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation (Genesis 1:1-2).
2) A new humanity was started with Noah through WATER and SPIRIT. The ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch. Peter said this represents baptism which “now saves us” (1 Peter 3:18-21).
3) The nation of Israel was created through the WATER of the Red Sea (baptism) with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead — my oh my, again we have water and Spirit (Exodus 14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4).
4) Ezekiel then describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (Ezekiel 36:25). Born again, I suspect.
5) Then Jesus, right before saying you must be born of “water and the Spirit” had just gone down into the WATER of the Jordan and the SPIRIT came down and landed on his head. Again, water and the Spirit (Matthew 3:16; John 1:29).
6) Jesus teaches Nicodemus that he must be born again, or from above which is accomplished through “WATER and the SPIRIT.“
7) When Jesus finished these words what was the first thing he did? He went down and baptised people in the Jordan with his disciples (John 4:1-2).
8) At the first Holy Ghost Gospel Revival meeting
9) Peter also says “Baptism now saves you“ (1 Peter 3:18), and Paul is told “Rise and be baptised, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16), and Paul writes that we are saved “by the washing of regeneration (WATER) and renewal in the Holy SPIRIT“ (Titus 3:5).
Too bad many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists refuse to see it but the Bible is pretty clear about new birth through the sacrament of baptism. Jesus is not ambiguous in this matter and he is alluding quite clearly to new beginnings in the Old Testament. The Early Church is also very clear and so is the teaching of the Catholic Church today.
St. Augustine said, “Who is so wicked as to want to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by prohibiting their being baptised and born again in Christ?”
I love some of your insights here. Please don’t take anything I say, as being personal against you. We are discussing scripture and important doctrine concerning baptism.
You are welcome here to discuss your views, and know that you are loved and welcome even if I disagree.
If you feel I’m being unkind toward you personally then pm me and discuss.
If I need to repent and withdraw a statement that offends you personally I will.
Let’s address scripture and not the person.
God bless you and keep you. May His peace be upon you and in your heart.
JLB
Maybe you guys need to decide on one version of the Bible, and stick to it.
Although I agree with Jerry about referring to other sources and not the Bible, I don’t want to use phrases like YOU ARE IN ERROR, or “YOU ARE WRONG”.
Please. Let’s don’t do this.
Im just as passionate as the both of you. Please let’s work together and use scripture, and still be courteous. You can hurl insults at me if you want, I don’t care, but please let’s be kind to each other.
Please.
Thanks for your input in this thread. It should be interesting.
JLB
People who practice righteousness are righteous.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
It would truly be deceiving to think that Christians who practice unrighteousness are somehow righteous.
JLB
Tradidi
Member
The Jews practised infant circumcision, as mandated to Abraham (Genesis 17:12), reaffirmed in the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 12:3), and demonstrated by the circumcision of Jesus on His eighth day (Luke 2:21). Without circumcision no male was allowed to participate in the cultural and religious life of Israel.
The rite of circumcision as the doorway into the Old Covenant was replaced in the New Covenant with the rite of Baptism — both applied to infants. St. Paul makes this correlation: “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism” (Colossians 2:11–12).
When Peter preached under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost he was speaking to a Jewish audience (Acts 2:5–35). Peter announced, “Repent, and let each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children” (Acts 2:38–39). The Jews would have been dismayed had the New Covenant not included their children, especially since it was promised to them, and the New Covenant was to be an improvement over the Old in which they were included.
The New Testament frequently implies that adults and children were included in the rite of Baptism. For example, when the head of a household converted and was baptised, his entire household was also baptised with him (Acts 16:15, 33; 1 Corinthians 1:16). The inference of course, especially based on Jewish understanding of the family and covenants, would include the aged, the adults, the servants, and the infants. If the practice of Infant Baptism had been illicit or prohibited it would surely have been explicitly forbidden, especially to restrain the Jews from applying Baptism to their infants as they did circumcision. But we find no such prohibition in the New Testament nor in the writings of the Fathers — a silence that is very profound.
Many commentators see an allusion to Infant Baptism in the words of St. Luke, “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16). In the early Church this passage was understood as a command to bring the infants to Christ for Baptism. The very first time this passage shows up in Christian literature (circa 200 AD), it is used in reference to Infant Baptism (Tertullian, De Baptismo 18:5). Even though Tertullian espoused a later baptism for children, he acknowledged that Infant Baptism was already the universal practice and does not try to avoid the interpretation of this verse’s reference to Infant Baptism. The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 350 AD) taught that children should receive baptism based on the words of Jesus, “Do not hinder them” (VI 15.7)
In the middle of the second century Infant Baptism is mentioned not as an innovation, but as a rite instituted by the apostles. Nowhere do we find it prohibited and everywhere we find it practised. Early in the nascent Church we have St. Irenaeus (circa 130-200 AD) who provides a very early witness to Infant Baptism, based on John 3:5. Irenaeus wrote, “For He [Jesus] came to save all through means of Himself — all, I say, who through Him are born again to God, — infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men” (Against Heresies, 2, 22, 4).
Origen (circa 185-254 AD) who had travelled to the extents of the Roman Empire wrote with confidence, “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition [custom] of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentary on Romans 5, 9).
St. Augustine confirmed the ubiquitous teaching of the Church when he wrote, “This [infant baptism] the Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end” (Augustine, Sermon. 11, De Verb Apost) and “Who is so impious as to wish to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by forbidding them to be baptised and born again in Christ?” (Augustine, On Original Sin 2, 20).
Throughout Christian history, only a very few have opposed Infant Baptism. The opposition resides mainly in those of Anabaptist heritage which originated in the sixteenth century and who were strongly opposed by Reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin who both taught and practised Infant Baptism. The Anabaptists’ opposition to the baptism of infants lies mainly in their belief — unsupported by Scripture and with no supporting evidence from the practice of the early Church — that one has to be of sufficient age to exercise personal faith in Christ and make a personal confession at baptism. Nowhere is this taught in Scripture that only adults can receive baptism. To hold this extreme view is to be outside the continuity of historical Christianity.
Thank goodness the law of Moses has been abolished.
However, water baptism is still a part of the New Covenant.
Tradidi
Member
You are hitting at everything that moves, but you still miss the target: God will not declare you righteous unless you are righteous. Scripture teaches us how we can be righteous: "But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
We must ask ourselves how one is born again.
Here is how:
Mark 16:16
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
He who has BELIEVED and been baptized shall be saved.
A baby cannot believe. So why baptize?
I come to find that you agree with Augustine and NOT the CC.
Did you neglect to read all those paragraphs I posted?
Here are two: From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
This IS the official teaching of the CC, even if you may not believe so.....
1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.
1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
From the above we can learn:
1. Becoming a Christian entails:
Proclamation of the Word
Acceptance of the gospel
Conversion
Profession of Faith
Baptism
Only an adult can satisfy the above requirements.
2. Baptism of infants can be attested to from the 2nd century on.
It is only possible that infants were baptized before this time as the N.T. mentions "entire households". However, we cannot state this as fact since it is not known for certain.
3. In the past, priests declared outright that babies must be baptized or they would go to hell if they died. Some taught the place for unbaptized babies as being called limbo...they would not see the face of God but they would not be in hell or in purgatory. The church NEVER taught this as a doctrine, but also did not stop priests that taught his or lay persons that promulgated this idea.
And as of today,,,the church believes babies that die will not see hell since they do not have PERSONAL sin,,,,as is what Augustine taught...he taught that babies have PERSONAL sin and share in the sin of Adam because he taught that Adam's sin is IMPUTED to all mankind.
Answered above.
Tradidi
Member
This argument backfires against your position.
If a person can neither be baptised nor born again unless and until he believes, then that person cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven, as per Jesus' own words. (John 3:5)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How does it backfire Tradidi?
To be saved a person MUST BELIEVE.
AFTER a person believes, he must be baptized.
IF he dies before baptism,,he will still be saved
because of the Baptism of Desire.
No one who believes in God will die lost.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I hope you'll also answer to the rest of what I wrote and not only that to which you wish to reply.
Tradidi
Member
It backfires because you say that:
1. For a person to be saved he must believe first.
2. Infants should not be baptised because they are not able to believe.
Putting 1 and 2 together means that infants cannot be saved. I hope you don't agree with that conclusion. So at least one of the statements upon which your conclusion is based must be false.
Tradidi
Member
I intend to when I get the time to answer properly.
Tradidi
Member
Only an adult can do all of the above (hear, accept, repent, profess, receive baptism), but that does not mean that an infant cannot do some of the above, i.e. receive baptism. The same Catechism you referred to states that this is a historical fact, not a theory. If you are an adult, then you must indeed do all of the above otherwise your baptism will be invalid. If you're an infant, your parents, your guardians or the minister if necessary will do some of these on your behalf.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the alternative conclusion would be that infants cannot be saved. That is not only unscriptural, it is also absurd.
The Early Church Fathers told us that infant baptism was handed down from the Apostles. That is fact enough for me.
I cannot speak for what some priests have said and done. If you search you will easily find many heretical and apostate priests today. But one does not judge the law by those who break it. What matters is what the Church has taught. And if the Church has not taught it yet, then one may have an opinion as long as this opinion does not contradict anything that the Church has already declared to be believed.
And no, the Catechism does not fall under the infallible teachings of the Church. There are many Catechisms, some good, some bad, some even heretical. But this is NOT the topic of this thread.
Tradidi
Member
Can you please explain this. Can an infant, who is not able to believe, desire to be baptised?