Why is Jesus called the Word / Logos?

[seekandlisten]

He created more than just the world..

Colossians 1:15-20 kjv
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

My point was I'm pretty sure its not Jesus who created the world it was God. Now I understand that some believe Jesus is God and while i disagree I don't condemn. Now to take that as far as saying Jesus created the world?? Here i would warn caution as that strips Jesus of everything he demonstrated on earth and the meaning and significance of it for us.

 

[Free]

My point was I'm pretty sure its not Jesus who created the world it was God. Now I understand that some believe Jesus is God and while i disagree I don't condemn. Now to take that as far as saying Jesus created the world?? Here i would warn caution as that strips Jesus of everything he demonstrated on earth and the meaning and significance of it for us.

That passage above, as well as John 1:1-3, is precisely why Jesus is said to be God. Do you agree that Creation is an act of God alone? If Jesus is said to have had all things made by him and through him, then would it not follow that he is also God?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

As you can see, the two passages above are in complete agreement. Do you agree that "all things" were created by him and through him? Do you agree that "without him was not any thing made that was made"? Would it not then logically follow that he could not have been made?

This is why I stated in the other thread that the doctrine of the Trinity most fully takes into account all that Scripture says about God. Anyone who denies the Trinity, or in the very least the deity of Jesus and his distinctness from the Father, has no way out except to deny what these two passages are explicitly saying.

 

[Ben Joiner]

seekandlisten,

You say that you do not believe Jesus is God, then do you believe that Jesus is the Savior? If so, then from what?

As for the main topic, the word Logos has heavy cultural meaning in the time. For instance, it is obviously a Greek word. But it is also where our words, "logic" "logical" and "logically" come from.

 

[Ben Joiner]

also, the wording of the John 1 text has heavy attacks on aspects of Platonism that differ with Christian thought. "The Word became Flesh," would have been almost anathema to Platonists.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten,

You say that you do not believe Jesus is God, then do you believe that Jesus is the Savior? If so, then from what?

As for the main topic, the word Logos has heavy cultural meaning in the time. For instance, it is obviously a Greek word. But it is also where our words, "logic" "logical" and "logically" come from.

Just to clarify, yes I do believe Jesus to be the Saviour of the world. Everything you probably believe him to be the saviour of but don 't forget to put God first. Let me put it this way. Would you agree that all things come from God? When we look around the world we can essentially "see" God? Would you agree that all things in essence evidence God? Basically speaking we could say that all things are God? Does this make any sense to you? That is exactly the same logic I see people using to try and make me believe that Jesus is in fact God.

Please not this is a very debatable belief from what I am seeing. If interested I have a thread titled Christian beliefs if you would further wish discussion or clarification for this belief.

 

[Steve76]

Jesus is God and the Word, as He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
He was in the garden of Eden, at the beginning of all creation, and He will be with us until the end of the world, and through eternity.

The Word/Logos can mean only one thing - Jesus Christ our God; who came in the flesh to save us from ourselves..



http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[Free]

Would you agree that all things come from God? When we look around the world we can essentially "see" God? Would you agree that all things in essence evidence God? Basically speaking we could say that all things are God? Does this make any sense to you? That is exactly the same logic I see people using to try and make me believe that Jesus is in fact God.

No, that is not at all the same logic.

Please address my post above.

 

[handy]

I would surmise that it has something to do with the creation order. We know that Jesus created the world, and we know that the world came into being by God's word, "and God said, "Let there be..." That voice with power, the voice that can call up a universe and fill it, that would be the Son, Jesus.

We cannot fully understand God, but I've often wondered if Christ being the Word can be understood as Christ being the enactor (made that word up) of God's intentions. The Father desires an action and the Word (Son) fulfills it.

Very interesting question. I saw this earlier and wondered what others thought as well. I've never really pondered it before.

I just noticed this. Jesus created the world??? This one you are going to have to explain??

I see that Free addressed this. He by no means exhausted all scriptures that show that it was Jesus who created the world. That text in Hebrews, 1:10 that I've brought up several times says the same thing. God created the world, Jesus created the world. Either Jesus is God or the Bible is inconsistent and a wholly unreliable source to base a life's philosophy on. I think I might address this in the "Christian Belief's" thread that you started, because Jesus being Creator God falls right in line with that thread. I'll just copy/past this post on that thread to move it there and we can continue with the discussion of the divinity of Christ.

 

[Ben Joiner]

Well anyway, the use of Logos here has huge meanings.

I was chatting with an atheist the other day who wouldn't believe in God unless I could show him exactly how God physically interacted with the physical universe. Such an explanation of course requires too complete an explanation of God for Him to still be God. But my response to that fella piggybacked on the breakthrough in deductive logic that Plato ascribed to Socrates. There must be a description of anything that exists. See the atheist believes that scientific laws of nature exist and control the physical world. So I said that God interacts with the physical world the same way those laws do. That means that we know the laws control our world and yet we also know that they are not part of it. So why can't the same be true with God?

But in John 1 you can see a great deal of familiarity with the ideas of Platonism by the use of what they considered the highest ideal. The "Logos" represented for them that world of true reality of which this one was only a shadow. They were right in their deduction that the physical must have a controlling description in the metaphyiscal, but they were wrong in saying that the metaphysical was more important. For if God exists, then He is at one time both because what He thinks exists and what actually does are one. So John 1 flies in the face of Platonism in a powerful way.

"The Logos became Flesh"

 

[Yahoshea]

One of Jesus' titles given in the bible is the "Word" ~ I do not find any explaination for this given to us in the scripture... wondering what sound reasons any may have?

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God John 1:1

The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 1:14

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the word of God. Revelation 19:13

sheshisown~

There is no linguistic reason to interpret Logos in John 1 as Jesus. No literature of the time uses logos in that way or to denote a personage of any kind. In over 350 times logos is used in scripture it is only defined (by some) Jesus 6 or 8 times. The overwhelming evidence in both Greek literature of the time and the overwhelming evidence in scripture itself points to a definition as statement speech or idea.
There are sources that will attempt to validate a definition of Jesus but it is not based on sound linguistic evidence. It is based more on tradition then real evidence.
I admit that John 1 can be difficult to understand, but that is more due to our lack of thinking as the Hebrews did and not as the current Western cultures look at things. Even though John wrote in Greek he still thought and perceived his world and his God from a purely Hebrew way. John and the others had the unenviable task of expressing Hebrew concepts and understandings to a Greek thinking world. As I have posted many many times the Hebrews did not see God as “He is …………..†the saw God as “He functions as ……..â€
Moses bowed down before the burning bush and turned away because He was afraid to look at God. The bush (and the angel of the Lord in it) functioned as God to Moses and Moses reacted to it as if it were God Himself. To him it was God. This expression of God WAS God to Moses.
Psalms 82 YHWH rebukes the leaders of Israel for not being Gods to the people. Jesus quotes these scriptures in John 10 to rebuke the Pharisees for not being Gods to the people. Did YHWH and Jesus expect them to be literal Gods? Of course not! They did expect them to function as Gods to the people and to relate to them as God would.
This also ties in to the personal way in which the Hebrews saw things. The Hebrews did not understand an object (or person) by comparing it to itself but rather by comparing it to the Hebrew himself. We might say “God is love†A Hebrew would say †God loves meâ€. It was viewed personally. In fact there is no word for “is†in the Hebrew language. The closest one could get is “functions as†or “relates to me asâ€. In our modern English language one could also say be like God, in the form of God, expressed image of God, represent God ect. Heard these before? Now we may not be any of these things in a perfect manner, but there was one man who was. He opened the door and made a way for us to be continually developing that perfection in ourselves. With the wind/breath/spirit of God blowing on us we are transformed from glory to glory.
Back to John 1 ---
“In the beginning was the Logosâ€
In the beginning was a concept/idea.
“And the Logos was with Godâ€
and the idea reflected as in a mirror God
“And the logos was Godâ€
This idea expressed who God was and how He wanted to relate to and function toward His children. (Again Hebrew parallelism saying the same thing in two or more ways.)
“This was in beginning toward God†(actual Greek)
From the beginning this idea/expression was a mirror toward God reflecting who God was.
“All things come into being through him and apart from him nothings came into being that has come into being.†(actual Greek).
God created all things and nothing has existence outside of God.
“In Him was life and the life was the light of menâ€.
God is the source of Light and life.
5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

All the previous verse are talking about God and not about Jesus. The next verses begin to speak of Jesus.

14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
God’s idea came to fruition. 1 Peter 1:20?For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
The Greek does not use the word “existed†it says Jesus is before John, but in preeminence. Jesus being the forerunner and firstborn. Verse 16 and 17 explain why Jesus is preeminent over John.
16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Again Jesus is related to and spoken of as God because of the way He functioned. He fully represented and expressed God.

I appreciate that it is hard to think in the Hebrew way, but it is imperative that we do so in order to understand scripture from within the culture it was written.

 

[Yahoshea]

IN ADDITION -------

If John intended for the term “Word†to be defined as Jesus in John 1 why would he differentiate so clearly between the two in Revelation.

Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Revelation 1:9? I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The term “and†in these verses caries the meaning of “in addition toâ€

God had a plan or Idea from the beginning. That Idea was to create children that would be like him in character. To do this he set up the Earth with all of it’s character building trials. In order for us to see what the character of God looks like in a human we have our perfect example in Christ. John was witness to both the plan/idea of God and, in addition, to the fulfillment of that plan in Christ. In John 1 the idea/plan of God became flesh and dwelt among us for our example.
This is much like my wife and I having a plan to have children. Our idea/plan became flesh when my son was born.

This also allows the scripture to carry on the meaning of the term Logos as it is translated in the remaining 350 times it is used in scripture.

 

[seekandlisten]

Would you agree that all things come from God? When we look around the world we can essentially "see" God? Would you agree that all things in essence evidence God? Basically speaking we could say that all things are God? Does this make any sense to you? That is exactly the same logic I see people using to try and make me believe that Jesus is in fact God.

No, that is not at all the same logic.

Please address my post above.

I believe yahoshea addressed John 1 way better than I could ever explain. Thank you for the post by the yahoshea, a lot of interesting points to consider.

 

[Yahoshea]

One more post to hopefully clear up some issues.
God is a reasonable God. He set forth a plan for the salvation of mankind. His purpose to develop children with his character. The hinge point of that plan is Jesus. Not only was he the savior but also the example for us to follow. We are told many times to imitate him and to become like him. If, as some say, Jesus is God then how can we ever become like him. What things that Christ did can we imitate. Everything that Christ did comes into question --- Did he do it as a God or as a man? Did Christ resist sin because he was a God or man. Did he overcome sickness and death because he is a God or man.
What of the greatest hope in scripture. Did Christ raise from the dead because he is a man or a God. If a God then how is that a hope for me?
And please do not start the idle philosophy of 100% God and 100% man nonsense. That is not even a rational statement. It is an escape into ethereal philosophy in order to attempt to explain a weak doctrine. One being cannot be capable of death and sin and not capable of sin and death. A being like that could never exist in reality.
Another excuse is the belief that God somehow became a man. This is also silly. For God to become a man he would have to change his very character. This is an impossibility.
Please see my thread titled. “Can God do anything?â€

 

[Yahoshea]

I have no illusions about changing many minds on this board. I fear that most on here are like the man convinced against his own will. He will remain of the same opinion still.
I would however conclude that most on here do want to walk with God and become like Jesus in every way possible. That being the case, a question might be raised as to what everyone’s particular doctrine does to help them become like Christ.
For example, If I were to believe that Jesus was any sort of God while on this Earth, how does that make him a perfect example that I can really follow. When I say any sort of God I am including “God/man, 100% god 100% man, Totally God in an earthly flesh body ect. Any one of these places Jesus in a category unlike me or the rest of humanity. How can he then be anything but a very small partial example for me? These concepts draw everything that Christ did into question. It forces speculation on what kind of advantage Christ had over us and what things he did can we actually follow him in. These concepts muddy the waters of a functional gospel in which God gives us a clear and definite example to follow.
We can debate the theories and philosophies of interpretation all day long but if we do not consider the actual purpose of doctrine (the furtherance of the plan of God) then it is intellectual gobbledeegoop.
God’s plan is to raise sons and daughters with his character. For that purpose he gave us the perfect example of what it means to have the fullness of the character of God (tested even unto death) in a human being. God would not sanctify any doctrine that would deter, make unclear, or sidetrack from that simple plan.

I know there are those that could care less if there doctrine fits in the plan of God because they only seek the prideful thrill of proving (through any means possible) that they are right. I do hope there are a few that really care about fulfilling the plan of God for their own lives and will seriously consider if their present doctrines help or hinder that goal.