Why is there so much resistance to the eternal security of the believer?

[Tim Petka]

Eternal Security (or OSAS) is a doctrine that was invented by individuals who weren't at all interested in living a holy and sanctified life.

Repentance is not a one-time event, repentance is a journey. That's Paul said "I die daily"..."walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh"..."he that endureth to the end shall be saved"..."i put my body under subjection, lest while preaching to others, I make myself a castaway"...

Thessalonians talks about a great "falling away" in the last days.

God gives us His Spirit to "lead us and guide us into all truth" and help us live a godly and sanctified life so we won't be destroyed by the lust of the flesh.

That's why the Bible says we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. It is an ongoing process, but a choice that we must make if we are to overcome the world, as Jesus did.

 

[JLB]

Eternal Security (or OSAS) is a doctrine that was invented by individuals who weren't at all interested in living a holy and sanctified life.

Repentance is not a one-time event, repentance is a journey. That's Paul said "I die daily"..."walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh"..."he that endureth to the end shall be saved"..."i put my body under subjection, lest while preaching to others, I make myself a castaway"...

Thessalonians talks about a great "falling away" in the last days.

God gives us His Spirit to "lead us and guide us into all truth" and help us live a godly and sanctified life so we won't be destroyed by the lust of the flesh.

That's why the Bible says we are saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. It is an ongoing process, but a choice that we must make if we are to overcome the world, as Jesus did.

Amen!

Welcome Brother to CF.net.


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

Stan,
Define "eternal life". Then define who secured eternal life for us. Then determine whether eternal life is not eternal security. If you don't care for the word "security" what word would you use? As to context, we need to include the teaching on election and predestination, not accordng to RT but according to Scripture.

I suggest you answer my post and then we can move on.

 

[Tim Petka]

Please remember, that the word "eternal" in this context means past, present and future life. God is the one that is from "everlasting to everlasting" (Paalms) the one which is, and was, and is to come" (Revelations). So our eternal life comes only when we are connected to, and in harmony, with the Giver of life everlasting.

 

[Tim Petka]

Is it possible to lose that connection?

Absolutely. Those that willingly make the choice to walk away and live a sinful life. It is our choices that will define us each and every day.

 

[Butch5]

If they never entered the strait gate, they were never saved.
The strait gate is the gate to kingdom of God, which has already come.
One cannot enter the strait gate after they are dead, it is too late. Some will find the gate and enter in. You must be born again.
Like Bunyan said, one cannot jump the hedge or fence, they must use the strait gate.
We are already His flock, grazing in the safety of His green pastures.
Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. Yehovah is my shepherd, I do not lack,
Psa 23:2 In pastures of tender grass He causeth me to lie down, By quiet waters He doth lead me.

The kingdom of God has come....
Mat 11:11 Verily I say to you, there hath not risen, among those born of women, a greater than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the reign of the heavens is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 `And, from the days of John the Baptist till now, the reign of the heavens doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force,
Mat 11:13 for all the prophets and the law till John did prophesy,
Mat 11:14 and if ye are willing to receive it , he is Elijah who was about to come;
Mat 11:15 he who is having ears to hear--let him hear.

There are only two kingdoms, the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness. Every person lives in one or the other.

I have to disagree with you. The gate leads to the path, the path leads to the kingdom which I submit is the physical reign of Christ on the Earth.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {strait: or, narrow}
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Mat 7:13-14 KJV)

 

[Deborah13]

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior (demons have this same knowledge James 2:19),
they escape from the pollutions of the world ( those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error, 2Peter 2:18),
They have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, (v 21) but than turn away from the commandment to love.

2Pe 2:20 ...... become to them hath the last things worse than the first,
2Pe 2:22 and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, `A sow having bathed herself--to rolling in mire.'

Mat 12:44 then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth it unoccupied, swept, and adorned:
Mat 12:45 then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'

These Matt. verses remind me of the Peter verses....are the people similar in nature, in faith, in knowledge of grace? Do they only have a form of godliness? Is it a head knowledge but the heart unoccupied? Because they are worse in sin than before they acknowledged Jesus as Lord.

I am not saying that the people in 2 Peter are possessed by demons but the language is the same, almost as if Peter is using Jesus' example in Matthew as it relates to these people.

 

[childeye]

I read a lot about returning to sin and the lust of the flesh on this thread. There are semantics in scripture. When scripture talks about turning away from Christ, or falling away to serve the flesh, how do you know it isn't referring to returning to a mindset of trying to establish your own righteousness through works of the law? As in choosing to do righteousness and choosing to not do unrighteousness, as opposed to simply loving others with faith that God is Love and the only righteousness in mankind. 2 Peter 2:20. Galatians 5:4. Galatians 5:6. Galatians 4:8-9.

 

[Butch5]

I read a lot about returning to sin and the lust of the flesh on this thread. There are semantics in scripture. When scripture talks about turning away from Christ, or falling away to serve the flesh, how do you know it isn't referring to returning to a mindset of trying to establish your own righteousness through works of the law? As in choosing to do righteousness and choosing to not do unrighteousness, as opposed to simply loving others with faith that God is Love and the only righteousness in mankind. 2 Peter 2:20. Galatians 5:4. Galatians 5:6. Galatians 4:8-9.

The Law came to an end a long time ago.

 

[childeye]

The Law came to an end a long time ago.

Respectfully this does not answer my question.

 

[Butch5]

Respectfully this does not answer my question.

Sorry for not elaborating. The Law was for the Jews and it ended a long time ago. How would one seek their own righteousness through the Law when there is no temple in order to keep the Law. It's not possible to seek one's own righteousness through the Law today because there is no temple.

 

[Deborah13]

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Mat 7:13-14 KJV)

Joh 10:9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

Matthew gate = G4439
John door = G2374
Acts 3:2 temple gate = G2374
Acts 3:10 temple gate = G4439

I see that the two words are interchangeable, even by the same author, in the same chapter, in the same description of the same thing. The gates of the earthly temple.

To me there is not any other strait gate except the Messiah, just as there is not any other door.
The broad path is the world and one can spend their whole life wondering on that path. But if they should find the narrow path, it will lead them to the strait gate, the door, the Messiah. "Come out of her my people."

This is the command to ALL mankind.....
Mat 7:12 `All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
How does one receive the power to obey this command.....
Mat 7:13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, .......

This is just how I see it because I believe that with the Messiah, the Kingdom came and is now and growing, in Him. Right now I only see it in part, one place is here on this forum site. I see it here in His people, speaking His word and loving one another.

 

[Butch5]

Joh 10:9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.

Matthew gate = G4439
John door = G2374
Acts 3:2 temple gate = G2374
Acts 3:10 temple gate = G4439

I see that the two words are interchangeable, even by the same author, in the same chapter, in the same description of the same thing. The gates of the earthly temple.

To me there is not any other strait gate except the Messiah, just as there is not any other door.
The broad path is the world and one can spend their whole life wondering on that path. But if they should find the narrow path, it will lead them to the strait gate, the door, the Messiah. "Come out of her my people."

This is the command to ALL mankind.....
Mat 7:12 `All things, therefore, whatever ye may will that men may be doing to you, so also do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.
How does one receive the power to obey this command.....
Mat 7:13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, .......

This is just how I see it because I believe that with the Messiah, the Kingdom is came and is now and growing, in Him. Right now I only see it in part, one place is here on this forum site. I see it here in His people, speaking His word and loving one another.

The passages I posted were from Jesus. It seems that one enters the gate to get on the road or path. Jesus told His disciple to strive to enter in at the strait gate. That indicates that the disciples were to do something. I posted that passage in response to the idea that it's all of God. I don't agree with that idea and I don't think it's what Scripture teaches. There are several passage that speak of man doing things. Paul said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. He also said that he beat his body into submission so that after preaching to others he himself wasn't cast off.James said faith without works is dead. I think these and other passages indicate that we are to do things regarding our salvation.

 

[childeye]

Sorry for not elaborating. The Law was for the Jews and it ended a long time ago. How would one seek their own righteousness through the Law when there is no temple in order to keep the Law. It's not possible to seek one's own righteousness through the Law today because there is no temple.

Thanks for the reply. Your point is valid. However, I had qualified my sentiments with a description of, returning to the 'mindset' of establishing one's own righteousness through choosing to do righteousness and therefore choosing to not do unrighteousness as a matter of personal choice, rather than acknowledging God as the Spirit of righteousness in mankind which makes a man righteous. The law need not be in effect for this mindset to exist.

My question is meant to draw attention to an issue of semantics occurring in scripture, since the believers in God as Love, could view returning to sin as returning to this mindset that one must establish their own righteousness. While those who have a mindset of establishing their own righteousness would probably view returning to sin as choosing to not do righteousness. Those who believe God is their righteousness, follow the Spirit Whose voice is empathy and compassion. While those who believe they choose to do righteousness of their own volition are still in the flesh trying to prove their own worth to God, rather than God's worth to man.
2 Corinthians 12:9. Romans 1:21.

 

[Malachi]

So our eternal life comes only when we are connected to, and in harmony, with the Giver of life everlasting.

Tim,
In post #21 you imply that the doctrine of the believer's eternal security is man-made (an invention), but in this quote you rightly state that our eternal life comes from God, because He is eternal.

But then you forget to point out that the minute God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit, He also gives us the gift of His Son, and indeed He gives us the gift of Himself (1 Jn 4:13-16). And once that gift has been given, the Holy Spirit places us in Christ (1 Cor 12:13). Hence His eternal life becomes our eternal life through God indwelling the believer, and Christians are called "the temple of the living God" (2 Cor 6:16).

None of this is based upon our goodness or our merit or our works. It is all purely because of God's grace. And we are in harmony with Him because He also gives us the New Birth, which is supernatural (Jn 1:12,13; Tit 3:4-7).

 

[Malachi]

Is it possible to lose that connection?
Absolutely. Those that willingly make the choice to walk away and live a sinful life. It is our choices that will define us each and every day.

Losing fellowship and losing salvation are two different things altogether. What you are talking about is losing fellowship, and there are severe consequences when believers sin wilfully. But that does not change the fact that eternal life remains eternal life (which was a gift to the sinner to begin with) and their salvation is always secure. Study 1 and 2 Corinthians and what happened to a sinning brother.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It still amazes me after all these years that there are actually Christians who want to live their whole lives not being sure if they are actually saved or if they will eventually make it to heaven.

The person who has faith in Christ has the assurance of their salvation.
Every now and again a person comes into the forums saying they can't believe anymore. That is the person who has no assurance of their salvation, not the person who has faith.

Worse, they get angry with those who have solid assurance of salvation and try to make them insecure in their salvation. I work for a ministry and I have read one too many testimonies of Christians whose lives were miserable and defeated because they were taught that they could lose their salvation and were never sure if they were really saved.

If only they knew the Bible itself tells us how we can know we are saved. There's no excuse for a Christian to wonder if they are saved, or not. The Bible tells us how we know if we are saved, or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This statement -- "faith is the security of our salvation" -- is also one of the reasons why there is resistance to the doctrine of eternal security.

How can a person believe that Christ's blood saves them and then wonder if Christ's blood saves them? Think about it.
Faith is KNOWING you are saved. Your believing is the assurance of your salvation. You know you are saved because you believe, because believing is how you access salvation.

There are many Christians who believe that it is their faith...which keeps them saved.

Explain how one is saved without believing in Christ. I'm continually amazed at the suggestion that it's somehow wrong to suggest that it is through your faith that you are saved: " you have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8 NASB).

But the quotation from 1 Peter shows us that it is THE POWER OF GOD which keeps us safe and saved.

Yes. But through what, Malachi? What did Peter say we have the power of God for salvation through? Did Peter say we still have that power if we do not have that through which it comes?

If we would keep our focus (1) on the Lord Jesus Christ, (2) on His perfect finished work of redemption, and (3) on the power of God Himself, then we could not possibly doubt that we are eternally secure.

So, in other words, what you're saying is keep believing. Keep believing and you can not possibly doubt you are eternally secure. This is what non-OSAS is all about. You have to keep believing to have the assurance of your salvation. The faith, the trust in all that you listed is the conduit through which we have the power of God for our salvation.

It is all God's work and we are simply to believe it. As long as Peter kept his focus on Christ he walked on water. When his focus changed, he became fearful. That is an illustration of where the focus should be.

And that's exactly what non-OSAS is about--keep believing in Christ and you will not fall away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If only they knew the Bible itself tells us how we can know we are saved. There's no excuse for a Christian to wonder if they are saved, or not. The Bible tells us how we know if we are saved, or not.

"...things that accompany salvation..." (Hebrews 6:9 NASB)

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for the reply. Your point is valid. However, I had qualified my sentiments with a description of, returning to the 'mindset' of establishing one's own righteousness through choosing to do righteousness and therefore choosing to not do unrighteousness as a matter of personal choice, rather than acknowledging God as the Spirit of righteousness in mankind which makes a man righteous. The law need not be in effect for this mindset to exist.

My question is meant to draw attention to an issue of semantics occurring in scripture, since the believers in God as Love, could view returning to sin as returning to this mindset that one must establish their own righteousness. While those who have a mindset of establishing their own righteousness would probably view returning to sin as choosing to not do righteousness. Those who believe God is their righteousness, follow the Spirit Whose voice is empathy and compassion. While those who believe they choose to do righteousness of their own volition are still in the flesh trying to prove their own worth to God, rather than God's worth to man.
2 Corinthians 12:9. Romans 1:21.

OK, if I'm understanding you correctly your argument is the same as that of Jews going back to the Law. In other words, those who do good deeds are seeking there own righteousness. I would submit, however, that we are called to do good deeds. Jesus told His disciples that unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees they would not see the kingdom of God.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20 KJV)

It would seem to me that doing good deeds would be attaining righteousness that leads to life. Paul said likewise that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
(Rom 2:5-7 KJV)

Likewise John the Baptist said to the Pharisees,

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (Mat 3:5-8 KJV)