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[_ Old Earth _] Why more and more evangelicals accept evolutionI chose my blog title to acknowledge that a growing n

it seems that Christianity/Bible and Evolution are diametrically opposed

YE creationism is diametrically opposed to the Bible, but of course, it's not the same thing as Chrstianity.

and it is forbidden and anathema to and for Catholics to accept or teach 'Origins' Evolution

Let's take a look....

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
From:

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...th_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

(my bolding)

The Vatican website. The document was signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI. So you've been rather badly misled, unless "origins evolution" has a weird private meaning for you.

for God created everything "in its whole substance" from nothing [ex nihilo] in an instant in the beginning on each of six by 24hr days - twinc

That is not what the Church teaches, nor has it ever taught that. As far back as St. Augustine, the Church acknowledged that the days of Genesis were not necessarily literal ones, and of course, it accepts God's word in Genesis that living things were not created ex nihilo.
 
Sola Scriptura is the only way to go with this. The minute you set your bible down and pick up someone's writings...you're treading on thin ice.
 
The Bible itself rules out the new doctrine of "sola scriptura."

The minute you set your bible down and pick up someone's writings...you're treading on thin ice.

"Sola scriptura" is a perfect example. It's not Biblical, and the Bible expressly states that there are other sources of authority besides scripture.

Nor is the Bible necessary for salvation. The first Christians had only the OT and the apostolic tradition. But that was sufficient.
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works./

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me./

Well the scriptures say otherwise my friend. :yes
 
The Bible itself rules out the new doctrine of "sola scriptura."



"Sola scriptura" is a perfect example. It's not Biblical, and the Bible expressly states that there are other sources of authority besides scripture.

Nor is the Bible necessary for salvation. The first Christians had only the OT and the apostolic tradition. But that was sufficient.

This has been bugging me since I read it. How can you say that brother? You offer no proof whatsoever. You want everyone to accept what you say as fact, but in reality only offer opinion. How many kinds of science are there? Most people would say one, true science. But the fact is, there's two kinds of sciences. There's observational science, that's the science in the real world that gives us our technology, allows us to put men on the moon, gives us new medical breakthroughs and technology, new metals, telecommunications, real science, which can be observed and tested and is repeatable because we are doing it in the present. We can conduct experiments and observe a repeatable reaction for a conclusion.

Then you have...let's call it historical science. This is where we make assumptions and speculations about the past. We have some evidences of the past based on what we see in the present. For instance, we have some dino bones or fossils, but can only make inferences and assumptions about them. Nothing about it can be observed or tested because they are from the past. We were not in the past. It's past. They want us to believe that 60 million years ago that there was a big bang and da da da, all life sprang from it, and evolved into different species and so forth. How do they know this? Where they there? Can this be tested? Is it repeatable? No. Was anyone there? YES! God was there. We know it's true because it wrote history before it happened, and there are a lot of people who will testify and witness to the fact that what is says has been true for them, and in the mouths of two or three witnesses the truth shall be established.

It's either true or it's not, so to suggest that some of it isn't true is to suggest that it all isn't true. That doesn't sit right with me brother. You're holding up a comic book over the scriptures? Whoa.
 
Barbarian observes:
"Sola scriptura" is a perfect example. It's not Biblical, and the Bible expressly states that there are other sources of authority besides scripture.

Nor is the Bible necessary for salvation. The first Christians had only the OT and the apostolic tradition. But that was sufficient.

This has been bugging me since I read it. How can you say that brother?

It's a fact. The Bible does not say that the Bible is the only source of authority about God. Indeed, it says that it isn't:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

And the NT didn't even exist at the time the early Church existed. It's a matter of record. How could it? The NT is partially the record of the doings of the early Christians.

You offer no proof whatsoever. You want everyone to accept what you say as fact, but in reality only offer opinion.

See above.

How many kinds of science are there? Most people would say one, true science.

True in one sense; it all works the same way. You see something you don't know, you try to figure out what it is, and then go test your idea by gathering evidence. If the evidence confirms your idea, then it is upgraded to a theory, and is considered to be true, pending any further information.

But the fact is, there's two kinds of sciences. There's observational science, that's the science in the real world that gives us our technology, allows us to put men on the moon, gives us new medical breakthroughs and technology, new metals, telecommunications,

You're talking about engineering, the application of science. For example, scientists have learned by evidence that living populations change by mutation and natural selection. Engineers have applied evolutionary theory by using mutation and natural selection to solve problems that are too difficult to solve by design. Evolutionary theory is the science and genetic algorithms are the way engineers apply the science.

real science, which can be observed and tested and is repeatable because we are doing it in the present. We can conduct experiments and observe a repeatable reaction for a conclusion.

The notion that we can't know anything we didn't directly observed is, of course, faulty. The observational science in evolutionary theory is both directly observation of evolution in populations, and of course, the sort of thing that finds chemical, genetic, and morphological data in fossils, making predictions about those fossils, testable.

Then you have...let's call it historical science.

Like forensics, fire investigation, geology, astronomy, paleontology, etc. But these are just as testable as directly observed processes like evolution. Do you see why?

This is where we make assumptions and speculations about the past.

"We" being creationists. Scientists make only testable hypotheses. You can't do science if it isn't testable. For example, Huxley, well over a hundred years ago, predicted that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Not too long after, Archaeopteryx was found. And today, we have a much larger body of evidence supporting his prediction, including feathered dinosaurs, dinosaurs with bird lungs, and so on. Would you like to talk about that?

We have some evidences of the past based on what we see in the present. For instance, we have some dino bones or fossils, but can only make inferences and assumptions about them.

Assumptions won't work in science, but science does nothing but inferences. It is almost always inductive, so proof isn't part of any science.

Nothing about it can be observed or tested because they are from the past.

See above. There's a lot more. Would you like to learn about some of it?

We were not in the past. It's past. They want us to believe that 60 million years ago that there was a big bang and da da da, all life sprang from it, and evolved into different species and so forth.

No. You've been given some bad information there. And of course, the big ban has nothing to do with evolutionary theory.

How do they know this?

The Big Bang? One convincing fact is two Bell Labs engineers accidentally located the predicted microwave background radiation from the Big Bang. There's a lot more to it, but we're talking about evolution, not cosmology.

But of course, the scriptures have nothing to say to support or deny either of these theories. Not everything that's true, is in the Bible.
 
Not everything that's true, is in the Bible.
Such a simple statement, but oh, so true.

While all that is in the Bible IS true, or truth, or demonstrative of some truth - not all that is true is contained in the pages of the Bible.
 
Barbarian observes:
"Sola scriptura" is a perfect example. It's not Biblical, and the Bible expressly states that there are other sources of authority besides scripture.

Nor is the Bible necessary for salvation. The first Christians had only the OT and the apostolic tradition. But that was sufficient.

If that's all you have is scripture, that's enough, to an extent, the Spirit Himself leads us also.



It's a fact. The Bible does not say that the Bible is the only source of authority about God. Indeed, it says that it isn't:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

And the NT didn't even exist at the time the early Church existed. It's a matter of record. How could it? The NT is partially the record of the doings of the early Christians.

Ok, I'll give you that. But it isn't talking about all books and writings of man. It's talking about the Spirit of God who is invisible. The hidden things of God. To try to equate that passage to any book you want to is folly.



See above. You're falling short of proof here. That there are more sources of knowledge about God isn't proof that evolution is something we should believe in.



True in one sense; it all works the same way. You see something you don't know, you try to figure out what it is, and then go test your idea by gathering evidence. If the evidence confirms your idea, then it is upgraded to a theory, and is considered to be true, pending any further information. Considered to be true...isn't proof and you know it!



You're talking about engineering, the application of science. For example, scientists have learned by evidence that living populations change by mutation and natural selection. Engineers have applied evolutionary theory by using mutation and natural selection to solve problems that are too difficult to solve by design. Evolutionary theory is the science and genetic algorithms are the way engineers apply the science. Too difficult to solve by design? lol, God designed us and if we live right, everything is there for growth and development. Animals too. Mutation isn't needed, growth is.



The notion that we can't know anything we didn't directly observed is, of course, faulty. The observational science in evolutionary theory is both directly observation of evolution in populations, and of course, the sort of thing that finds chemical, genetic, and morphological data in fossils, making predictions about those fossils, testable. That isn't even close to right. While we may be able to know things that we did not firectly observe, that comes from the Spirit and not from a petri dish, lol. Predictions from experimentation is not necessarily facts, it probablities based on observation of prior reactions.



Like forensics, fire investigation, geology, astronomy, paleontology, etc. But these are just as testable as directly observed processes like evolution. Do you see why? Nope. You can't test mutation and prove it. The best we can do is to observe and record, and hypothesize the results.



"We" being creationists. Scientists make only testable hypotheses. You can't do science if it isn't testable. For example, Huxley, well over a hundred years ago, predicted that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Not too long after, Archaeopteryx was found. And today, we have a much larger body of evidence supporting his prediction, including feathered dinosaurs, dinosaurs with bird lungs, and so on. Would you like to talk about that? Not really. Evolution and mutation is limiting God and says that He didn't do a good enough job designing us, lol.



Assumptions won't work in science, but science does nothing but inferences. It is almost always inductive, so proof isn't part of any science. Ok, so you admit it, that there is no proof of what you're saying.



See above. There's a lot more. Would you like to learn about some of it? I know enough about it to know it isn't true. Maybe you cam from a monkey brother, but I didn't.



No. You've been given some bad information there. And of course, the big ban has nothing to do with evolutionary theory.



The Big Bang? One convincing fact is two Bell Labs engineers accidentally located the predicted microwave background radiation from the Big Bang. There's a lot more to it, but we're talking about evolution, not cosmology.

But of course, the scriptures have nothing to say to support or deny either of these theories. Not everything that's true, is in the Bible. That's true, but that doesn't mean that evolutionary theory has anything going for it, and Christians should not even consider it.
 
Barbarian you say there are other sources of authority other than the bible, whose authority and pertaining to what?

tob
 
Barbarian observes:
... the Bible expressly states that there are other sources of authority besides scripture.

Not everything that's true, is in the Bible.
I skipped over the first one, I can agree on the second statement, but AUTHORITY?
I'd like to see you support this assertion. :)
 
Just a reminder that there is to be no discussion of Catholicism in this forum.
 
I wouldn't bring up the theological arguments, which would likely involve Catholic theology. Instead, let's use scripture. St. Paul says:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,
 
btw the Bible correctly understood and interpreted does indeed say it is necessary for salvation and not just the Bible but Jesus, Himself, said so via the Bible - sadly most Christians have not been told this and so do not know this - these are bogus Christians more prepared to accept the doctrines of humans and devils than those of Christianity and God - btw the oral tradition and transmission of the gospels was still fresh in the minds of the Apostles and early Christians and as a matter of interest, unknown to most the written gospel arrived in UK/GB within two years after the Resurrection - twinc
 
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YE creationism is diametrically opposed to the Bible, but of course, it's not the same thing as Chrstianity.



Let's take a look....

Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens. With the development of the human brain, the nature and rate of evolution were permanently altered: with the introduction of the uniquely human factors of consciousness, intentionality, freedom and creativity, biological evolution was recast as social and cultural evolution.
From:

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

COMMUNION AND STEWARDSHIP:
Human Persons Created in the Image of God

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...th_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

(my bolding)

The Vatican website. The document was signed by Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope Benedict XVI. So you've been rather badly misled, unless "origins evolution" has a weird private meaning for you.



That is not what the Church teaches, nor has it ever taught that. As far back as St. Augustine, the Church acknowledged that the days of Genesis were not necessarily literal ones, and of course, it accepts God's word in Genesis that living things were not created ex nihilo.

of course you have it all confused and mixed up - neither Ratzinger or Augustine were right or infallible as the consensus of the Magisterium and the early Church Fathers - btw common ancestor has already been refuted and rebutted - twinc
 
btw the Bible correctly understood and interpreted does indeed say it is necessary for salvation and not just the Bible but Jesus, Himself, said so via the Bible -

At the beginning of Christianity, the Bible did not yet exist. And I would be pleased to see where Jesus says the Bible is necessary to be saved.
 
At the beginning of Christianity, the Bible did not yet exist. And I would be pleased to see where Jesus says the Bible is necessary to be saved.
Actually, he specifically said that "No one comes to the father but by me." He has been called "the word made flesh", so maybe twinc is making some sort of comparative statement????
 
But as you know, He gave teaching that is mentioned, but not given in the Bible, so again, it rules out sola scriptura.
 
As you see, even Snelling's fellow creationists have rejected his ideas because they are manifestly incompatible with the evidence. Nothing more to say about it.

from what I have read the RATE [RESEARCH TEAM] stand firm - see their DVD and BOOK viz "Thousands not Millions" - twinc
 
it also says why not - since what is written is enough and needs neither addition to or subtraction from - twinc

So your claim is that God can't touch a person totally ignorant of the Bible, and have that person accept Him? How do you think it happened before the Bible existed?
 
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