Why the difference of forgiveness?

[Who Me]

You are trying to lump all sorts of different things into one and it doesn't work that way.
Regarding the covenant with Israel it was a bilateral covenant, and a land covenant,meaning God says you can keep this land and I will bless and protect you IF; and then He sets the conditions they have to meet. The passage that says if you humble yourselves and pray etc. Says nothing about repentance.
The sacrifices were a temporary covering (pointing to Jesus)for sin so God didn't have to destroy them. Nothing about repentance, you injected that into the passage.

Did Cain repent?

The tax collector wasn't repenting he was recognizing that he was a sinner and only God's mercy could preserve him.

I realize the Bible says in places, repent and be saved but it also says be baptized and be saved, yet most Christians understand that neither repentance or baptism saves anyone, only Faith in Jesus does. Baptism is a representation of our dying and being raised with Christ, and repentance shows we have recognized our sin against God and desire to no longer do those things. I don't believe we can truly repent until we are saved. We can be sorry. We can know one things are wrong and make human effort to fix ourselves. But repentance in the Bible has to first recognize our offense AGAINST GOD. Not people. Until we are saved, in Christ, we will never recognize this

I have tried to have a consistent approach to forgiveness to include both the OT and NT teaching.
What you ignore is what Jesus taught in Luke 17, where forgiveness is only on repentance. This together with the consistent OT teaching of the need for repentance changes how you view forgiveness.

 

[Who Me]

I know biblical forgiveness well.
I think you should re-read my other post.

Let me ask you this:

Your best friend does something to really hurt you.
You feel you cannot speak to him anymore.

Do you wait for him to ask YOUR forgiveness before you forgive him?

Jesus said in Luke 17. If your Brother offends you speak to him and if he repents forgive him.

That is the biblical pattern.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said in Luke 17. If your Brother offends you speak to him and if he repents forgive him.

That is the biblical pattern.

So then there is a conflict in scripture...

Matthew 6:14-15
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Luke 6:37
37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Colossians 3:13
13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Mark 11:25
25“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

Above are verses from both Jesus, in red, and from Paul.
Did Jesus make a mistake?
How would YOU explain the above contradiction?

 

[daninthelionsden]

When we sin, we must repent in order to resume our relationship with God. But when we sin against our brother/sister we must confess/repent/atone if we have any hope of resuming the relationship. A Christian must forgive regardless. But, that doesn't mean they have to resume the relationship with the unrepenting offender.
Forgiving debt
Forgiving to resume relationship
Two different things.

 

[GodsGrace]

When we sin, we must repent in order to resume our relationship with God. But when we sin against our brother/sister we must confess/repent/atone if we have any hope of resuming the relationship. A Christian must forgive regardless. But, that doesn't mean they have to resume the relationship with the unrepenting offender.
Forgiving debt
Forgiving to resume relationship
Two different things.

Good post.

Forgiving to resume a relationship is called Reconciliation.

This is forgiving:





This is Reconciliation:

 

[Who Me]

So then there is a conflict in scripture...

Matthew 6:14-15
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Luke 6:37
37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Colossians 3:13
13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Mark 11:25
25“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

Above are verses from both Jesus, in red, and from Paul.
Did Jesus make a mistake?
How would YOU explain the above contradiction?

There is no conflict in scripture, just illogical thinking on your part.
I have explained howcGod and Christians forgive and you don't like it.

 

[Who Me]

What you miss is we are to forgive, with no option not to when an offender says sorry.
Eg you lend your brand new car to a brother who is carless and the total it, you discover they were not insured, that your insurance will not cover there use of the car .change the scenario to an unrepentant brother. There is no requirement to forgive, just a requirement to pray for that brothers good.

Because forgiveness when one has been hurt is humanly speaking impossible, that it is stressed so much.
We have to be willing, to have an attitude that is ready to forgive, just like God.

You have a loan for one wrecked car, higher insurance and a repentant brother in Christ who you have to forgive.


How would you counsel a grieving parent whose child has been killed.
They are going through all the emotions of grieving.
What is better for that parent, to be told they Must forgive that killer.
Or to be told they don't have to do that, just commit them and their emotions about them to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no conflict in scripture, just illogical thinking on your part.
I have explained howcGod and Christians forgive and you don't like it.

There certainly is a conflict in scripture if you're right.

In post no. 22, you said:

Jesus said in Luke 17. If your Brother offends you speak to him and if he repents forgive him.

That is the biblical pattern.

You're stating that the biblical patter is that we are to speak to the one that offends us and IF HE REPENTS we are to forgive him.

With my verses in my post no. 23, I'm showing you that we are to forgive our offender WHETHER OR NOT he asks for forgiveness.

THIS is the biblical pattern as shown by words of both Jesus and Paul.

Could you please repeat again HOW Christians forgive?

 

[GodsGrace]

What you miss is we are to forgive, with no option not to when an offender says sorry.
Eg you lend your brand new car to a brother who is carless and the total it, you discover they were not insured, that your insurance will not cover there use of the car .change the scenario to an unrepentant brother. There is no requirement to forgive, just a requirement to pray for that brothers good.

Because forgiveness when one has been hurt is humanly speaking impossible, that it is stressed so much.
We have to be willing, to have an attitude that is ready to forgive, just like God.

You have a loan for one wrecked car, higher insurance and a repentant brother in Christ who you have to forgive.


How would you counsel a grieving parent whose child has been killed.
They are going through all the emotions of grieving.
What is better for that parent, to be told they Must forgive that killer.
Or to be told they don't have to do that, just commit them and their emotions about them to God.

It's better if the parents could forgive the killer.
That doesn't mean they have to like him....
but they have to love him as we should love all mankind.

The problem, as I see it, is we think we have to love people as we love our spouse or our child....this is not agape love. Agape love is a love that comes from God...it's recognizing that all men are created by God but that some are commanded by satan, to which they reply willingly.

To tell you the truth, I feel rather sorry for them....
AS THEY SPEND THEIR TIME IN PRISON....

 

[Christ_empowered]

forgive 70x7 is part of Jesus' plan for us.

 

[Who Me]

There certainly is a conflict in scripture if you're right.

In post no. 22, you said:

Jesus said in Luke 17. If your Brother offends you speak to him and if he repents forgive him.

That is the biblical pattern.

You're stating that the biblical patter is that we are to speak to the one that offends us and IF HE REPENTS we are to forgive him.

With my verses in my post no. 23, I'm showing you that we are to forgive our offender WHETHER OR NOT he asks for forgiveness.

THIS is the biblical pattern as shown by words of both Jesus and Paul.

Could you please repeat again HOW Christians forgive?

As the Bible teaches forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
We have to be ready and willing to forgive. If unable to forgive because there is no repentance, then like Jesus on the cross we commend the offender to God, praying for them. Asking God to deal with them and our emotions about the situation.
Ultimately our ability to either forgive or to hand over to God is totally dependent on Gods grace to us.

 

[Who Me]

It's better if the parents could forgive the killer.
That doesn't mean they have to like him....
but they have to love him as we should love all mankind.

The problem, as I see it, is we think we have to love people as we love our spouse or our child....this is not agape love. Agape love is a love that comes from God...it's recognizing that all men are created by God but that some are commanded by satan, to which they reply willingly.

To tell you the truth, I feel rather sorry for them....
AS THEY SPEND THEIR TIME IN PRISON....

We are to be imitators of Jesus and Jesus only forgives on repentance.
So by demanding that a grieving parents express a forgiveness they do not have is actually harmful to them and a false witness.

Can you not see how cruel it is to make those who are hurting try to do what at that point in time is not in them.

 

[daninthelionsden]

We are to be imitators of Jesus and Jesus only forgives on repentance.
So by demanding that a grieving parents express a forgiveness they do not have is actually harmful to them and a false witness.

Can you not see how cruel it is to make those who are hurting try to do what at that point in time is not in them.

You can't demand people forgive on YOUR timetable. But, if one is in a relationship with Christ and has a heart to obey their Lord, then they will WANT to obey. Eventually they must find a way and ask the Lord to help them.

 

[GodsGrace]

As the Bible teaches forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
We have to be ready and willing to forgive. If unable to forgive because there is no repentance, then like Jesus on the cross we commend the offender to God, praying for them. Asking God to deal with them and our emotions about the situation.
Ultimately our ability to either forgive or to hand over to God is totally dependent on Gods grace to us.

This conversation will end here Who Me.
I've posted verses showing how you are misunderstanding scripture regarding forgiveness and have explained it as well as I know how.

If you want to wait for someone to ask your forgiveness before you can forgive them,,,then that is something the Holy Spirit will have to bring to your attention as it is not the biblical teaching.

You have again stated that we should only forgive upon the condition of repentance....but you have not explained how there is conflict in scripture if this is true.

You, repeating what you believe, does not make it correct.
You'd have to explain why there is no conflict in scripture if you ARE correct....

But you cannot.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are to be imitators of Jesus and Jesus only forgives on repentance.
So by demanding that a grieving parents express a forgiveness they do not have is actually harmful to them and a false witness.

Can you not see how cruel it is to make those who are hurting try to do what at that point in time is not in them.

Jesus is God.
We are NOT JESUS...we are only His disciples.
We don't forgive like Jesus forgave.

We don't forgive a persons SINS,,,
we forgive them for what they have done to US personally.

You're getting our forgiving someone for harm done to US with God forgiving us of sin.

WE CANNOT FORGIVE SINS.

This is why Jesus said from the cross:
FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Jesus was forgiving them, on HIS PART, for this sin that they were committing....He was NOT forgiving them in the sense that they should go to heaven ---this depended on the Romans and Jews asking forgiveness TO GOD for their SIN.

Please try to understand this difference.
It's an important part of being Christian.

 

[Who Me]

This conversation will end here Who Me.
I've posted verses showing how you are misunderstanding scripture regarding forgiveness and have explained it as well as I know how.

If you want to wait for someone to ask your forgiveness before you can forgive them,,,then that is something the Holy Spirit will have to bring to your attention as it is not the biblical teaching.

You have again stated that we should only forgive upon the condition of repentance....but you have not explained how there is conflict in scripture if this is true.

You, repeating what you believe, does not make it correct.
You'd have to explain why there is no conflict in scripture if you ARE correct....

But you cannot.

Fine, but you also need to account for the biblical requirements for repentance as shown in Luke 17. Otherwise your belief is umbilical.
This is something I have shown and explained that repentance is the biblical norm.

 

[Who Me]

Jesus is God.
We are NOT JESUS...we are only His disciples.
We don't forgive like Jesus forgave.

We don't forgive a persons SINS,,,
we forgive them for what they have done to US personally.

You're getting our forgiving someone for harm done to US with God forgiving us of sin.

WE CANNOT FORGIVE SINS.

This is why Jesus said from the cross:
FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Jesus was forgiving them, on HIS PART, for this sin that they were committing....He was NOT forgiving them in the sense that they should go to heaven ---this depended on the Romans and Jews asking forgiveness TO GOD for their SIN.

Please try to understand this difference.
It's an important part of being Christian.

We are to imitate, that means seek to do what the imitated does. Yes we are not God and cannot forgive sins, but we can copy the process that Jesus went through when forgiving.
That is something your believe requires people to do.

As for Jesus forgiving while on the cross. His words were 'Father forgive them', not I forgive them, he didn't forgive, but passed them over to God the Father to judge.

 

[GodsGrace]

Fine, but you also need to account for the biblical requirements for repentance as shown in Luke 17. Otherwise your belief is umbilical.
This is something I have shown and explained that repentance is the biblical norm.

No. You're not understanding something.

GOD requires being sorry for our sins to forgive us.

WE have to forgive harm done to us whether OR NOT the other person asks for it.

I won't post the same verses again. They just need to be accepted.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are to imitate, that means seek to do what the imitated does. Yes we are not God and cannot forgive sins, but we can copy the process that Jesus went through when forgiving.
That is something your believe requires people to do.

As for Jesus forgiving while on the cross. His words were 'Father forgive them', not I forgive them, he didn't forgive, but passed them over to God the Father to judge.

Jesus was forgiving those that killed Him for Killing Him.

FATHER FORGIVE THEM
FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO

If Jesus was asking God to forgive them...FOR THAT SIN AGAINST HIM...then HE already had forgiven them..FOR THAT ONE SIN.

Not for ALL their sins.

WE forgive for what the person has done to us...
that does NOT mean that they are either saved or lost...only that WE forgive them.

I'll try to find something you could read...

I truly hope you come to understand this.
You said we are to follow God...
Did God not forgive YOUR wrongdoing??
Romans 5:10

Why should we forgive?

Why should we forgive? Why is it important for us to forgive those who sin against us? What are the results of unforgiveness?

www.compellingtruth.org

 

[Who Me]

Jesus was forgiving those that killed Him for Killing Him.

FATHER FORGIVE THEM
FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO

If Jesus was asking God to forgive them...FOR THAT SIN AGAINST HIM...then HE already had forgiven them..FOR THAT ONE SIN.

Not for ALL their sins.

WE forgive for what the person has done to us...
that does NOT mean that they are either saved or lost...only that WE forgive them.

I'll try to find something you could read...

I truly hope you come to understand this.
You said we are to follow God...
Did God not forgive YOUR wrongdoing??
Romans 5:10

Why should we forgive?

Why should we forgive? Why is it important for us to forgive those who sin against us? What are the results of unforgiveness?

www.compellingtruth.org

Asking is not the same as doing.
If I ask for a plate to be passed, it is not the same as if I pass the plate.
Jesus ask God the Father to forgive them. He is praying for unrepentant sinners, showing them emence love and grace in seeking their benefit. He did not forgive them.

Yes God has forgiven me my sins.
He did it when I turned in repentance to him.

You need to fit Luke 17 into your understanding of forgiveness, as well as how the Jews in the OT understood how forgiveness worked.