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why the virgin birth ?

kingdavid said:
the tree of life is Christ, a person and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a being, the serpent.

the true believer becomes apart of the tree of life as he said he is the vine we are the branches. they were not literal trees, they represented beings. the serpent was the tree of knowledge(carnal-sexual knowledge) of good and evil that eve lay down and touched. she couldn't wait for her husband which is the same reason the church went off philandering with that beast man of revelation-the pope and became a great whore, just like eve was. eve had natural relations with a beast man and the church spiritual committed fornication against Christ with that beast a man-the pope as written in revelations. the revelation at the end is the same at the end as it was in the beginning. alpha has become omega. the church did spiritualy what eve did naturally. eve desecrated her womb and the church desecrated her womb(the mind is the womb of the spirit)

kingdavid,

Thanks for your response, but I would rather not 'add or take away from the Word. I have to reject this teaching as false and divisive. It seems you are mixing a lot of things in here. What you are saying is just not in in the Word, it's that simple. Scripture says that Adam was not deceived, and that through Adam sin entered the world. I am not saying that Eve was not a sinner, she was, but she was not our federaI head...Adam is our Father, and it was through him that sin came into the world. The stuff you are writing is peppered, mixed, and just made up. I encourage you to look to the Word, be a lover of the Truth...it is so much better and freeing than man's wisdom and ideas.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Death came by man...In Adam all die.

1 Timothy 2
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Eve was deceived, as the weaker vessel, and fell into transgression...Adam sinned knowingly. Btw, I am in no way lessening Eve's Presumptuous sin here, but we are not of Eve's 'seed'. We are Adam's 'seed'. We will see later how Eve, and Adam, were deceived.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

sin entered by one 'man' (Adam), and death by sin passed to all.

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


You see, by restructuring the fall you will affect other truths as well. Through one man sin, through one man, Jesus Christ, grace. The things you presented affect the Gospel. Sex was not the issue, it was a disobedience to God through the temptation of the lust of the flesh ('good for food'), the lust of the eyes('pleasant to the eyes'), and the pride of life ('desired to make one wise'). Jesus was also tempted in these three ways.

Genesis 3
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Adam and Eve wanted to be like 'gods' knowing good and evil...

Genesis 3
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Later in Revelation we see that the Tree of Life is there, and that it will bear 12 kinds of fruit every month. It says we will be able to partake of it. (Revelation 2:7) I am sure this is not a form of sexual relations at all. The Bible says it's leaves will heal the nations. It will be on both sides of the River of Life that flows from the throne of God and the Lamb. (Revelation 22:2)

Consider this verse that has a warning...

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


Many things are shadows of things to come, or pictures of Christ, but the tree in the beginning was a literal tree. There is nothing in the Word of God to indicate otherwise, and plenty to indicate that it was.

I do not know who Mr. Arnold Murray is that daniel referred to, but if he is teaching these things I would not listen to him. It is clearly not in the Bible at all, and it contradicts what the Bible teaches. I urge you, in love, to stay close to the Word.

lovely
 
lovely said:
kingdavid said:
the tree of life is Christ, a person and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a being, the serpent.

the true believer becomes apart of the tree of life as he said he is the vine we are the branches. they were not literal trees, they represented beings. the serpent was the tree of knowledge(carnal-sexual knowledge) of good and evil that eve lay down and touched. she couldn't wait for her husband which is the same reason the church went off philandering with that beast man of revelation-the pope and became a great whore, just like eve was. eve had natural relations with a beast man and the church spiritual committed fornication against Christ with that beast a man-the pope as written in revelations. the revelation at the end is the same at the end as it was in the beginning. alpha has become omega. the church did spiritualy what eve did naturally. eve desecrated her womb and the church desecrated her womb(the mind is the womb of the spirit)

kingdavid,

Thanks for your response, but I would rather not 'add or take away from the Word. I have to reject this teaching as false and divisive. It seems you are mixing a lot of things in here. What you are saying is just not in in the Word, it's that simple. Scripture says that Adam was not deceived, and that through Adam sin entered the world. I am not saying that Eve was not a sinner, she was, but she was not our federaI head...Adam is our Father, and it was through him that sin came into the world. The stuff you are writing is peppered, mixed, and just made up. I encourage you to look to the Word, be a lover of the Truth...it is so much better and freeing than man's wisdom and ideas.

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Death came by man...In Adam all die.

1 Timothy 2
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Eve was deceived, as the weaker vessel, and fell into transgression...Adam sinned knowingly. Btw, I am in no way lessening Eve's Presumptuous sin here, but we are not of Eve's 'seed'. We are Adam's 'seed'. We will see later how Eve, and Adam, were deceived.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

sin entered by one 'man' (Adam), and death by sin passed to all.

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


You see, by restructuring the fall you will affect other truths as well. Through one man sin, through one man, Jesus Christ, grace. The things you presented affect the Gospel. Sex was not the issue, it was a disobedience to God through the temptation of the lust of the flesh ('good for food'), the lust of the eyes('pleasant to the eyes'), and the pride of life ('desired to make one wise'). Jesus was also tempted in these three ways.

Genesis 3
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Adam and Eve wanted to be like 'gods' knowing good and evil...

Genesis 3
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Later in Revelation we see that the Tree of Life is there, and that it will bear 12 kinds of fruit every month. It says we will be able to partake of it. (Revelation 2:7) I am sure this is not a form of sexual relations at all. The Bible says it's leaves will heal the nations. It will be on both sides of the River of Life that flows from the throne of God and the Lamb. (Revelation 22:2)

Consider this verse that has a warning...

Revelation 22
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


Many things are shadows of things to come, or pictures of Christ, but the tree in the beginning was a literal tree. There is nothing in the Word of God to indicate otherwise, and plenty to indicate that it was.

I do not know who Mr. Arnold Murray is that daniel referred to, but if he is teaching these things I would not listen to him. It is clearly not in the Bible at all, and it contradicts what the Bible teaches. I urge you, in love, to stay close to the Word.

lovely



there are many instances in the bible where people are liked to tree. the nation of israel is liked to a fig tree and a believer is likened to an oak tree that is planted by the waters.


it was sex that opened their eyes to know good and evil and made them wise(but only in all carnal knowledge). even your family history is known as a family tree.

the Lord didn't deny that adam and eve became as gods, knowing good and evil. the Lord God said behold the man has become like one of us(just like satan said), to know good and evil. and now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of Life, and eat, and live forever...gen 3:22 the only part that was a lie that satan said was they added one word to the Word by saying, ye shall "NOT" surely die. that was the lie


i don't know who mr. arnold is.
 
kingdavid said:
it was sex that opened their eyes to know good and evil and made them wise(but only in all carnal knowledge). even your family history is known as a family tree.

the Lord didn't deny that adam and eve became as gods, knowing good and evil. the Lord God said behold the man has become like one of us(just like satan said), to know good and evil. and now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of Life, and eat, and live forever...gen 3:22 the only part that was a lie that satan said was they added one word to the Word by saying, ye shall "NOT" surely die. that was the lie


i don't know who mr. arnold is.

Sex? Sex opening the eyes of Adam and Eve to the knowledge of good and evil? I am sorry, but where in scripture is this ever implied? If one reads the book of Genesis in terms of general creation and the fall of man, it was Adam and Eve's CHOICE to EAT of the forbidden fruit after being DECEIVED by the serpent, otherwise known as Satan, of which led up to their knowledge of good and evil. Not any form of carnal or sexual act.

Gods? Again....I am going to have to disagree. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. Whereas God IS perfect. So too is not one the ten commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. If we are to imply that Adam or Eve are or were gods, would that not be recognition that God is not the one true God?

Please let us be careful in terms of doctrine shared here. Let us also try not to take away or add to the written word of the Lord. It is understandable that there are many a thing in which a believer can come to ponder about...but let us be careful yes? For Satan as he was in the days of creation, is just as much now the deceiver and has no issue with trying to pull our faith away from Christ.

I apologize for any offense caused here. None was meant.

May God Bless You

Danielle
 
LostLamb said:
kingdavid said:
it was sex that opened their eyes to know good and evil and made them wise(but only in all carnal knowledge). even your family history is known as a family tree.

the Lord didn't deny that adam and eve became as gods, knowing good and evil. the Lord God said behold the man has become like one of us(just like satan said), to know good and evil. and now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of Life, and eat, and live forever...gen 3:22 the only part that was a lie that satan said was they added one word to the Word by saying, ye shall "NOT" surely die. that was the lie


i don't know who mr. arnold is.

Sex? Sex opening the eyes of Adam and Eve to the knowledge of good and evil? I am sorry, but where in scripture is this ever implied? If one reads the book of Genesis in terms of general creation and the fall of man, it was Adam and Eve's CHOICE to EAT of the forbidden fruit after being DECEIVED by the serpent, otherwise known as Satan, of which led up to their knowledge of good and evil. Not any form of carnal or sexual act.

Gods? Again....I am going to have to disagree. Adam and Eve were far from perfect. Whereas God IS perfect. So too is not one the ten commandments: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. If we are to imply that Adam or Eve are or were gods, would that not be recognition that God is not the one true God?

Please let us be careful in terms of doctrine shared here. Let us also try not to take away or add to the written word of the Lord. It is understandable that there are many a thing in which a believer can come to ponder about...but let us be careful yes? For Satan as he was in the days of creation, is just as much now the deceiver and has no issue with trying to pull our faith away from Christ.

I apologize for any offense caused here. None was meant.

May God Bless You

Danielle



it is hid and revealed all through scripture. the book of revelations gives a parallel revelation to what was hidden in the book of genesis, however the revelation is the same. only one shows the soiritual side and the other is the natural side. the apostate church in revelations had an iilegal carnal sexual relationship with the beast man/false prophet. she polluted her womb which the mind is the womb of the spirit that was corrupted by this beast guy injecting her with his false doctrine/creeds/dogmas(false seed) and made her a great whore(she lived untrue to her husband, Christ). then she spread her spiritual fornications against the Word all over the world and forced it upon all and killed those who wouldn't receive it.


That is exactly what eve did. she was untrue to her husband and desecrated her womb which is where all children are conceived. that is why the scripture says we were born in sin, shaped in iniquity. the womb is where a child is shaped and born. That is how we became polluted in our own blood, was by the CROSS of the blood lines by that beast guy known as the serpent. He beguiled/seduced eve. that is why her name characterizes what kind of woman she was. adam called her eve after the fall which means the mother of all living but adam is not the father of all living. adam was subtly calling his wife a whore.
 
JON-MARC

I have always been told that the reason for Him not having an earthly father is so that He wouldn't inherit a sin nature. My question is: Don't women have a sin nature? The way my first wife gave herself to any man who would have her, I would have to that they do. So why didn't Jesus inherit a sin nature from Mary? She wasn't sinless despite what the Catholics believe.

In Deuteronomy the children under 21 were allowed to enter the promised land because of their age, and because they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Mary was under 21 hence she was pure to give birth to Jesus.
 
JON-MARC

I have always been told that the reason for Him not having an earthly father is so that He wouldn't inherit a sin nature. My question is: Don't women have a sin nature? The way my first wife gave herself to any man who would have her, I would have to that they do. So why didn't Jesus inherit a sin nature from Mary? She wasn't sinless despite what the Catholics believe.

In Deuteronomy the children under 21 were allowed to enter the promised land because of their age, and because they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Mary was under 21 hence she was pure to give birth to Jesus.

I am repeating this for those who missed it :)




Cornelius said:
Jon-Marc said:
I have always been told that the reason for Him not having an earthly father is so that He wouldn't inherit a sin nature. My question is: Don't women have a sin nature? The way my first wife gave herself to any man who would have her, I would have to that they do. So why didn't Jesus inherit a sin nature from Mary? She wasn't sinless despite what the Catholics believe.

There is a simple medical reason for it. The mother does not share blood with the baby. Sin gets transferred by the blood. The life of the FLESH is in the blood.Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood;

Jesus shared no blood from a human. His was pure.

This fact obviously was not known by the writers of the Bible. Which just proves again the authenticity of God writing the Word. God obviously knows the medical fact and that was the reason for the virgin birth.
 
Cornelius said:
There is a simple medical reason for it. The mother does not share blood with the baby. Sin gets transferred by the blood. The life of the FLESH is in the blood.Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood;

If this were true, then a child would not be affected by the blood type of his mother. In fact, there is no difference between the effect of the mother on the blood type of her offspring, from that of the father.

Example: if one parent has type O blood, and the other has type A, blood, the child will have type A blood. It doesn't matter which of the parents have the type A blood. For instance, if the mother has type A blood and the father has type O blood, the child will have type A blood. This would NOT be the case if the mother did not share blood with the baby. If that were the case, the baby would have type O blood like its father.
 
kingdavid said:
it is hid and revealed all through scripture. the book of revelations gives a parallel revelation to what was hidden in the book of genesis, however the revelation is the same. only one shows the soiritual side and the other is the natural side. the apostate church in revelations had an iilegal carnal sexual relationship with the beast man/false prophet. she polluted her womb which the mind is the womb of the spirit that was corrupted by this beast guy injecting her with his false doctrine/creeds/dogmas(false seed) and made her a great whore(she lived untrue to her husband, Christ). then she spread her spiritual fornications against the Word all over the world and forced it upon all and killed those who wouldn't receive it.


That is exactly what eve did. she was untrue to her husband and desecrated her womb which is where all children are conceived. that is why the scripture says we were born in sin, shaped in iniquity. the womb is where a child is shaped and born. That is how we became polluted in our own blood, was by the CROSS of the blood lines by that beast guy known as the serpent. He beguiled/seduced eve. that is why her name characterizes what kind of woman she was. adam called her eve after the fall which means the mother of all living but adam is not the father of all living. adam was subtly calling his wife a whore.


Kingdavid,

I am sorry, but I just cannot agree or accept that doctrine as true.
 
Paidion said:
Cornelius said:
There is a simple medical reason for it. The mother does not share blood with the baby. Sin gets transferred by the blood. The life of the FLESH is in the blood.Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood;

If this were true, then a child would not be affected by the blood type of his mother. In fact, there is no difference between the effect of the mother on the blood type of her offspring, from that of the father.

Example: if one parent has type O blood, and the other has type A, blood, the child will have type A blood. It doesn't matter which of the parents have the type A blood. For instance, if the mother has type A blood and the father has type O blood, the child will have type A blood. This would NOT be the case if the mother did not share blood with the baby. If that were the case, the baby would have type O blood like its father.


I have a Google button :)

The mother's circulatory system is not continuous with the fetus's. Blood does not normally flow from the mother to the fetus and back; only materials carried in the blood are exchanged. Therefore, maternal blood cells such as B lymphocytes are not normally transferred to the fetus, although the antibodies produced by B lymphocytes do cross the placenta.…

…It is known that fetal cells occasionally enter the maternal circulatory system, because the result is a documented medical tragedy. In cases where the fetus has the red blood cell D antigen of the Rh group (that is, the fetus is Rh positive) and the mother does not (that is, she is Rh negative), the entry of fetal blood cells into the mother's blood will cause an immune response against the antigen. The mother will produce antibodies against the D antigen, and these will cross the placenta and start destroying the fetal red blood cells, a condition called hemolytic disease of the newborn. Because of advances in medical knowledge and diagnostic tools, this condition is largely preventable and curable.

The transfer of blood cells in the other directionâ€â€from mother to fetusâ€â€does not have the same effect, because the fetal immune system is not fully developed and cannot respond to any foreign antigens carried by maternal cells. In addition, the few maternal blood cells that may leak through the placenta to the fetus are not enough to launch an immune response against fetal antigens. We therefore do not have evidenceâ€â€for example, an immune response by the fetusâ€â€showing that maternal cells can cross the placenta. Since fetal cells can do so on occasion, however, it seems likely that maternal blood cells, such as B lymphocytes, can as well, although this is not the normal situation.

A fetus (baby) is fed, or nourished, by the mother through the placenta, which is attached to the umbilical cord. In the placenta, the mother's blood and the fetal blood both flow through vessels that are very close together. But the mother's blood does not mix with the fetal blood. When the mother's blood is close to the fetal blood, oxygen and nutrients move from the mother's blood into the fetal blood.

http://www.health.com/health/library/md ... 72,00.html

Google it !
 
Cornelius, if God's choice of a woman was based on the fact the mother's blood doesn't mix with the child's blood then God would have chosen any woman...

Mary was without blemish, a virgin. So I believe God's choice of Mary had a lot more to do with her state of being wihtout blemish due mostly to her age...
 
MMarc said:
JON-MARC

I have always been told that the reason for Him not having an earthly father is so that He wouldn't inherit a sin nature. My question is: Don't women have a sin nature? The way my first wife gave herself to any man who would have her, I would have to that they do. So why didn't Jesus inherit a sin nature from Mary? She wasn't sinless despite what the Catholics believe.

In Deuteronomy the children under 21 were allowed to enter the promised land because of their age, and because they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Mary was under 21 hence she was pure to give birth to Jesus.



because God created both the sperm and the egg. it wasn't mary's egg. mary was just a serrogate or an incubator so to speak. that is why jesus never called her mother. he only called her woman
 
daniel6177 said:
kingdavid said:
the tree of life is Christ, a person and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a being, the serpent.


Ahhh and let me guess. Eve had sex with satan? then of course adam has to have sex with him because scripture says he ate also.
This view is straight out of the mouth of arnold murray and is complete heresy like everything else he says.



the serpent was not satan other than the fact the satan indwelled in the serpent. and by adam having sex with the woman after she had sex with the serpent, indirectly adam was having sex vicariously. just like it is a known fact that when you have sex with a woman you are having sex with every person she has been with. don't you know that? that is the way it was with adam and eve, she gave unto adam. adam didn't eat/partake directly with the serpent as eve did.
 
Jon-Marc said:
kingdavid said:
he was born without sex because sex was the original sin whereby man fell in the garden and corrupted himself.

Where did you get that idea? Sex had nothing whatsoever to do with the fall. It was caused by disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit.


sex had everything to do with it. the fruit of the tree of good and evil was the serpent. just like every child is the fruit of their mother's womb. the fruit was the serpent that eve ate/partook with because he was bigger and better looking than man was. that is why she fell for him
 
The first commandment God gave Adam and Eve:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

If they didn't have sex then they would be going against God's command.
 
Rick W said:
The first commandment God gave Adam and Eve:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

If they didn't have sex then they would be going against God's command.



how can spirits have sex???? God created the spirit man first and wanted them to multiply by spriritual multiplications. then god created the flesh man and put the spirit man into the body of flesh. it was the spirit man that was created in the image of God. God doesn't multiply by sex, he does by spiritual multiplications which is how he wanted man to do so also, to be a reflector of Himself
 
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