Why Trinitarians And Non-Trinitarians Have Different Beliefs?

[LeviR]

Hey All,
Let me add that Jesus was clearly still in human form after the resurrection.
He retained the marks of the nail injuries He received prior to resurrection.
The marks were there.
But His body is no longer corruptible.
That is what makes Him the new Adam.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

And he is still that resurrected man and sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven.The Father whom Jesus was made in His image, both are in heaven, they have a location. The holy habitation of the Father is in heaven, not everywhere. He can be everywhere only by His Spirit and His eyes which are the great multitude of His angels who are also in the image and likeness of God. They are the “us” of whom man was made in the image.
Everywhere an angel is seen, it’s not because they take on human flesh, but because they open the eyes of man to allow them to be see.

 

[LeviR]

When the angel appeared in the way of Balaam and his donkey, the angel first opened the eyes of the donkey to see him. Then the angel opened the eyes of Balaam to see.
If the angel had put on flesh, then both the donkey and Balaam would have seen him together.

 

[Free]

But again, whether the doctrine of holy trinity is in the bible is debatable,

Sure, but like much else, it's the view of God that best takes into account the whole revelation. It sure isn't tritheism or polytheism; Modalism makes no sense; Arianism ignores or misinterprets much; it can't be that an angel came in human flesh and then returned to being an angel after ascending.

but the identity group of "trinitarians" is nowhere to be found in the bible. I'm vehemently against the notion of "no one comes to the Father except through the trinitarian doctrine", because that's a twisting of God's words. A thread with a title of "trinitarian vs non-trinitarian" is wrong at the beginning when it artificially divides God's people into two camps, and everybody including you just goes along with that and defends that, only I call it out.

But, you're once again begging the question. The entire point is, can a person not believe in the Trinity, or at the least deny the deity of Jesus, and be considered one of "God's people"?

You can bet that all those religious elites, the Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and lawyers knew the Scripture better than anybody else, they'd devoted their whole life studying the Torah, they can recite any passage from the top of their head, and yet none of them knew God, they ended up crucifying God on the cross. You can say that they were reading the Old Testament, we're living in the New Testament era, then how come that false prophets are rising in Jesus's name and many are deceived? (Matt. 24:4-5) What prompts you to ask me repeatedly - "which Jesus"?

Because you are continually begging the question by saying things such as "The whole bible is about . . . Jesus who IS truth," "I identify myself as a child of God, my doctrines, my church or my pastor didn’t die to atone my sins, Christ did," and the "God of salvation is relevant to everyone."

Mormons claim to believe in the biblical Christ, but he is one of many and the literal brother of Satan and many others. JWs claim to believe in the biblical Christ, but he is the incarnate archangel Michael, who (possibly) then returned to being an angel after he ascended. Arians claim to believe in the biblical Christ, but he is nothing more than a man, a mere creature. Tritheists claim to believe in the biblical Christ, but he is one of three Gods, in contradiction to biblical monotheism. Trinitarians claim to believe in the biblical Christ, but he is one of three eternal, divine persons, the Son of God who came and took on human flesh, being both truly human and truly God.

That is five irreconcilably different "biblical" Christs. None could be true, but it is not possible that more than one could be true. I don't see how we can just believe Jesus to be whomever or whatever we want him to be and be saved.

That is why I keep asking "Which Jesus?". I stated previously that "Either God is Unitarian or Trinitarian (or something else), but he cannot be both (or all) of those. To get that wrong is to believe in another god." It is the same with Jesus. I even gave a verse where Paul implies it is possible to believe in "another Jesus," along with "another spirit" and "another gospel" (2 Cor 11:4). In Gal 1 he says that anyone who proclaims a different gospel is to be considered accursed. Jesus said that salvation is through believing in his name (John 3:18), which is why John repeats that at the beginning and end of his gospel (John 1:12; 20:31). To believe in [on] the name of Jesus is to believe in "the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title" (M. R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament).

Also, by saying things such as "and yet none of them knew God, they ended up crucifying God on the cross" and "false prophets are rising in Jesus's name and many are deceived," you once again completely undermine your complaint against both the use of "Trinitarianism vs non-Trinitarianism" and the debate of which position is true (or most likely to be true), and show exactly why coming to the truth of who Jesus is, who he claimed to be, is of central importance. You say they crucified "God on the cross," but that isn't what at least two others in this discussion believe, and they think they believe Scripture. And, don't false prophets rise in the name of a false Jesus?

Look at what Jesus says:

Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. (ESV)

Is that not exactly what this debate is about? Even if it isn't a particular person claiming to be Christ, although that happens all the time, it is about others claiming to follow a Christ who is "another Jesus," thus they are led astray. Who Jesus is is central to his work and central to the gospel and central to salvation.

 

[JLB]

Paul came after Jesus was taken to heaven and what he continued to write about Jesus, some decades after Jesus was taken, is that Jesus is still a man. Stephen saw a man too.

Acts 7
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

1 Cor. 15
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Tim 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

When you talk about God do you say He's a man in heaven? Paul said Jesus is a man still.

Yes, God became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

You do believe what this scripture says, right?



JLB

 

[JLB]

When the angel appeared in the way of Balaam and his donkey, the angel first opened the eyes of the donkey to see him. Then the angel opened the eyes of Balaam to see.
If the angel had put on flesh, then both the donkey and Balaam would have seen him together.

The Angel of the LORD is God.

And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. Exodus 3:2
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6


Do you believe Moses saw God?

 

[Josef]

yes and the same resurrection Jesus had, those who are counted worthy will also have.

What specific thing did Jesus do or obtain that makes him God in your opinion?

Hey All,
Please read:

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Show me the human that can raise themselves from the dead.
The power over life and death is God's alone.
Jesus has the power.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

And he is still that resurrected man and sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven.The Father whom Jesus was made in His image, both are in heaven, they have a location. The holy habitation of the Father is in heaven, not everywhere. He can be everywhere only by His Spirit and His eyes which are the great multitude of His angels who are also in the image and likeness of God. They are the “us” of whom man was made in the image.
Everywhere an angel is seen, it’s not because they take on human flesh, but because they open the eyes of man to allow them to be see.

Hey All,
Your answer is pretty much the same LeviR.
Jesus is far more than just a man.
He has the power over life and death.

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Men alone do not have this power.
The power over life and death is God's alone.
Jesus had it.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Sure, but like much else, it's the view of God that best takes into account the whole revelation. It sure isn't tritheism or polytheism; Modalism makes no sense; Arianism ignores or misinterprets much; it can't be that an angel came in human flesh and then returned to being an angel after ascending.

Speaking of “whole revelation”, God has already revealed his true form to apostle John in Rev. 1 and 19, with gory details about his physical appearance, I won’t add anything to that, especially not any of these “isms”.

But, you're once again begging the question. The entire point is, can a person not believe in the Trinity, or at the least deny the deity of Jesus, and be considered one of "God's people"?

Jewish people as a whole don’t believe in Trinity or the deity of Jesus, except the messianics whom I align with. What does God say about them? Are they still God’s people? Here’s the answer, loud and clear:

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’ ” (Lev. 26:44-45)

Because you are continually begging the question by saying things such as "The whole bible is about . . . Jesus who IS truth," "I identify myself as a child of God, my doctrines, my church or my pastor didn’t die to atone my sins, Christ did," and the "God of salvation is relevant to everyone."

Okay, which question this time? “Which Jesus?” 1 Jn. 4:1-3 already answered you, set the true Jesus apart from all the fake ones. If you continue to dismiss that as insufficient, that’s your problem.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is why I keep asking "Which Jesus?"

And that is why I keep answering, the one whose God in the flesh died for my sins and rose from the grave. Also, that’s why I keep redirecting you to 1 Jn. 4:1-3 wherein lies God’s own answer - “God has come in human flesh.” Any doctrine that leaves out either the God part or the flesh part is apparently false.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Also, by saying things such as "and yet none of them knew God, they ended up crucifying God on the cross" and "false prophets are rising in Jesus's name and many are deceived," you once again completely undermine your complaint against both the use of "Trinitarianism vs non-Trinitarianism" and the debate of which position is true (or most likely to be true), and show exactly why coming to the truth of who Jesus is, who he claimed to be, is of central importance. You say they crucified "God on the cross," but that isn't what at least two others in this discussion believe, and they think they believe Scripture. And, don't false prophets rise in the name of a false Jesus?

My complaint has been consistently against identity politics and division over the obsession of such labels, against this “us vs them” tribalism, and also against Nicolaitanism which Jesus specifically hates. And what is Nicolaitanism? Monopolization of God, selling him to the congregation through controlled channels of the Nicolaitans, no one can understand God’s words or build relationship with God except through the clergy, that just sums up European history from the fall of Roman Empire to the reformation, and it’s still quite common among most Christians who rarely read their Bible and only flaunt a few bumper sticker verses. So once again, to clarify, you can see that none of these is about the Trinity doctrine itself or God’s nature, but a vivid display of OUR sin nature - PRIDE.

I said these things such as “yet they didn’t know God” to show you that just reading and studying the Bible is not enough, as those religious elites had demonstrated, they were blinded by their own doctrines and pride.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, God became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

You do believe what this scripture says, right?



JLB

That version of 1 Timothy 3:16 says "he was manifested in the flesh" except for like one or two Bibles. Why do you supposed that is?

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,
Please read:

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Show me the human that can raise themselves from the dead.
The power over life and death is God's alone.
Jesus has the power.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

You should include verse 22 because it means Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead based on grammar. The context means Jesus prophesied about his own resurrection which the Bible says God did. The Bible says Jesus required external assistance to be resurrected.

John 2
22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Hebrews 5
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[NoahK]

Where are those who know that God is a Spirit ? (John 4:24)
Which side are they on ?

True. God is Spirit and I know God to be a Trinity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That version of 1 Timothy 3:16 says "he was manifested in the flesh" except for like one or two Bibles. Why do you supposed that is?

KJV and NKJV both read "GOD was manifested in the flesh", that settles it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

True. God is Spirit and I know God to be a Trinity.

Is Jesus a spirit ?

 

[LeviR]

Is Jesus a spirit ?

Yes he is, he’s called a life giving spirit. A life giving spirit with a body of flesh and bone. Who is the imprint image of his Father.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Let me add:

Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus is in the form of God.
Jesus is equal to God.
Jesus took upon Himself the form of a servant.

God has the power to transform our lives.
He proves it by transforming His form into the likeness of men.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Tax

 

[eddif]

They received their teaching through oral communication. So doctrines were introduced to help believers retain critical information.

I picked a couple of sentences.

Your post really is filled with trying to get some answers. That spirit of how the answers come opened Romans 3 a little more.

Romans 3:1 kjv

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

The fact is God just started speaking his oracles of pre creation and gave his speeches /oracles to the Jews.

God spoke many ways and finally spoke through his son.

What reallly got me about your post is Pentecost. Sons and Daughters. Not just oracles of God, The Law of Moses, Prophets, the spiritual offices of The Church, but many ways.

Oral communication (oracles) direct from God started it all.
Thanks Josef

Mississippi redneck.
eddif

 

[LeviR]

You should include verse 22 because it means Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead based on grammar. The context means Jesus prophesied about his own resurrection which the Bible says God did. The Bible says Jesus required external assistance to be resurrected.

John 2
22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Hebrews 5
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Jhn 10:14 - I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:16 - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 10:18 - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This is interesting. Jesus says he is laying down his life and has the power to take it again.

This is similar to Jesus saying he would raise up his body in three days.

Oh, wait a minute. He says “This commandment have I received of my Father.”
That explains it. Jesus was commanded to lay down his life, and if he did he could take it back again. The power to lay down he life was therefore of the command he had from the Father. And the power to take it back again was of the same command.

So, when Jesus laid down his life the Father gave it back to him according to the command.

In other words, a dead person cannot raise himself from the dead.
If a dead person can raised himself from the dead, then he’s not dead.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jhn 10:14 - I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:15 - As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jhn 10:16 - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Jhn 10:18 - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This is interesting. Jesus says he is laying down his life and has the power to take it again.

This is similar to Jesus saying he would raise up his body in three days.

Oh, wait a minute. He says “This commandment have I received of my Father.”
That explains it. Jesus was commanded to lay down his life, and if he did he could take it back again. The power to lay down he life was therefore of the command he had from the Father. And the power to take it back again was of the same command.

So, when Jesus laid down his life the Father gave it back to him according to the command.

In other words, a dead person cannot raise himself from the dead.
If a dead person can raised himself from the dead, then he’s not dead.

Yeah, of course Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead. He was resurrected by the Breath of Life, aka the Holy Spirit, the same way Adam came alive, and likewise, the two witnesses in the future.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)

Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. (Rev. 11:11)