Why we should debate atheists (or anyone for that matter) Part 2

[Grazer]

"In any fairly large and talkative community such as a university there is always the danger that those who think alike should gravitate together where they will henceforth encounter opposition only in the emasculated form of rumour that the outsiders say thus and thus. The absent are easily refuted, complacent dogmatism thrives, and differences of opinion are embittered by the group hostility. Each group hears not the best, but the worst, that the other group can say" - C.S Lewis

If we want people to know the best arguments and see the best of Christianity, we need to seek out and engage the best of the opposing arguments. We may not always win the argument or get it right, but we will certainly learn more about how to handle the viewpoints we do not agree with. Richard Dawkins says he is sick of showing respect to religion and yet in his debates with John Lennox, whilst he may not agree or respect his views he certainly respects John Lennox as a person. This is the aspect that is all to lacking in discussions of this type.

But we can only start to do that if we actually understand the full dynamic of the acutal point and not relying on caricature. We don't like it when its done to us. The problem with the internet is its large degree of anonymity, people can put what they want. We all have a picture of what we think the opposition believe, some Christians think atheists are atheists because "they have not received the gift of faith" Actually many have very legitimate reasons and they are usually around the actions and attitude of religious people.

So I guess the point of my ramblings is; go out and engage with those who do not agree with your world view but do so with gentleness and respect.

Thank you

 

[Eventide]

In the volume of the book it is written of Me..

What I try to convey to any person being skeptical or even careful about the evidence we have from the scriptures is this;

God wrote it all down beforehand... centuries before it ever came to pass.. because in the volume of the book it is written of Me says the LORD.

The word of God self proclaims that it is incorruptible.. and this can mean many things to many people... although what it actually means is that the stories themselves have told the one grand story again and again, in seemingly limitless ways..

Thematic study of the scriptures provides undeniable evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ is precisely who He claimed to be, because again, the same gospel story was foretold in seemingly countless ways..

What's even more fascinating imo.. is that the oracles of God were entrusted to the nation of Israel alone, as they were spoken through the prophets... and so any criticism along the lines of corruption there is rather silly.. because the Jews to this day revere the OT as the word of God, while being judicially blinded to the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is their Messiah... the very personification of the ancient Old Testament scriptures.. and even THAT was foretold..

IT's remarkable to say the least... although imo the evidence is in and it all points to Christ.. for we have the incorruptible word of God telling us the end from the beginning in countless ways, to His eternal glory.

 

[farouk]

I think that in this whole area it's good to remember the fact that 'he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him' (Hebrews 4).

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

In answer to your question, I don't believe we should debate the gospel. It is fact, indisputable and beyond question, except in the minds of those who refuse to believe.

Debate doesn't win souls. Typically what is called "debate" on these boards is no more than arguing. That is why I attempt to state my position once here, and move on, though I'm finding myself at time frustrated around here by the incessant baiting by liberal believers and non-believers masquerading as believers. Sometimes it leads to two or three exchanges that I later regret because of the forcefulness with which I state my opinions.

That kind of post isn't going to change anyone's mind and does nothing more than confirm about me what they already believe, that I am an unloving, opinionated and implacable Christian. None of those adjectives should ever apply to a Christian, and we are in error when we give others the ammunition to stick to those opinions of us.

 

[farouk]

It's a proclamation.

If what we are proclaiming is from God's Word, then the idea that we all have our two cents' to pitch in, is already getting away from the idea of proclaiming the truth as it is in Christ. (Not that those who debate are necessarily conscious of this, but this is how I feel about it.)

 

[AlexBC]

So I guess the point of my ramblings is; go out and engage with those who do not agree with your world view but do so with gentleness and respect.

Thank you

I completely agree. I've met people on both sides recently who have zero respect or tolerence for the other.

 

[Eventide]

The incorruptible word of God... which lives and abides for ever..

What I think many Christians feel when they're expressing their thoughts on the word of God, is that there is literally no end to it revealing the truth about sin, righteousness, and judgment.. so in that sense it's only a tiny fragment of a limitless whole so to speak..

Not that it's questionable.. in fact I think that this makes it all the more undeniable.. that we see the word of God as living and powerful and effectual.. virtually limitless in its ability to speak to the hearts and minds of His own creatures.

I also don't think for a minute that God can not communicate with us in our natural Adamic state.. because the scriptures show us that He does.. again, in countless ways.. He is perfectly able to get to the heart of the matter in each and every one of us, in limitless, living and powerful ways.. as He is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every man that comes into the world.

.02

 

[Eventide]

conviction...

I think it was Mark Twain who wrote..

"It's not what I don't understand in the bible that bothers me, it's what I do understand.. that bothers me."

IMO just another testimony to its undeniable truth.. even from a skeptical unbeliever.

 

[Eventide]

The DEEP things of GOD...

I think a perfect example of this is the gospel accounts themselves as compared to the epistles to the church of God, written to those who are born again and IN CHRIST..

Everyone (even in their natural state) can understand the foundational demands of the gospel.. things like "if any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me..

"Repent, and believe the gospel."

These things bother us.. they come to us with authority (weight) and they're convicting.. they press upon the heart and mind of man..

etc etc...

But there is no way that an unregenerated man is going to understand the deep things of God; like the church of God, or the Israel of God, or the Day of the Lord, etc etc etc.. because imo they're all deep spiritual subjects.. and Peter actually tells us that some of these things are hard to be understood.. even for a born again Christian !

Make sense..?

SO I believe that anyone can hear and understand the fundamental aspects of the gospel of God concerning His Son, and only born again believers can 'see' the deep things of God.

 

[twelve]

If we want people to know the best arguments and see the best of Christianity, we need to seek out and engage the best of the opposing arguments.

Good point, but I'd add to that--one of the biggest problems I've seen with interfaith discussions is presumption. Presuming to know what each person believes is a conversation ender. Often, it seems people come into discussions with a preconceived notion that whatever they learned from wikipedia, a book, a "building bridges" guide, a youtube video, or a documentary is representative of that individual.

Very few people are open to being "converted," but if you approach people with respect, actively listen with interest, and share the truth, they're much more likely to hear what you have to say.

 

[duari91]

Here is my two cents on the topic of debate...

As Christians, it is our job to be that of the apostles. To insure that the word of God lives on, and is spread throughout the world. However, I believe Paul did the best job representing this in the book of Acts.

Remember when Paul went to preach the word to the Greeks? There were plenty of intellectuals in Greece at the time (probably more than anywhere in the world). Do you remember what Paul did? It was actually extremely intelligent. He didn't engage in any DEBATES at all. In fact, he did all that he needed to do. He made statements about God himself. Basically saying things like "God is the creator of all things, the heavens and the earth." He didn't ask questions, nor did he answer the questions of the intellects. After he made his statements about the word of God, two things happened.

The intellects called him crazy, and walked away. However; those who were destined to be filled with the holy spirit approached him, and he then preached to those people. So you see, all you have to do is make statements about the word of God, and then God will do the rest. Moral of the story, don't waist your breathe on people who aren't destined to be saved. Spread the word, make statements, and let God work. Don't argue with the intellects who will continue to call you crazy no matter what you say.

 

[WIP]

This is my thought. God doesn't need attorneys to argue for him. He wants witnesses to speak the truth. A witness merely shares what he believes to be true. Nothing more, nothing less. We are called to be witnesses.

 

[Grazer]

This is my thought. God doesn't need attorneys to argue for him. He wants witnesses to speak the truth. A witness merely shares what he believes to be true. Nothing more, nothing less. We are called to be witnesses.

But aren't we to be prepared to give a defense?

 

[AlexBC]

There's a passage in the Bible that I think is translated roughly as " be prepared to defend your faith".

As well you should.

Ah. Paul apparently said "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ,”

 

[Grazer]

There's a passage in the Bible that I think is translated roughly as " be prepared to defend your faith".

As well you should.

Ah. Paul apparently said "demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ,â€

Found it. 1 Peter 3:15 (my phone is not pasting at the moment)

 

[AlexBC]

Found it. 1 Peter 3:15 (my phone is not pasting at the moment)

What's the exact verse in Peter? Paul's does sound a little aggressive

 

[Grazer]

What's the exact verse in Peter? Paul's does sound a little aggressive

1 Peter 3:15 NIV

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

 

[WIP]

But aren't we to be prepared to give a defense?

I think you’re referring to 1 Peter: 3-15; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I don’t read this verse as giving defense or arguing. In my view, argue implies boldness and perhaps even bordering on arrogance not meekness. I read it as being ready to provide an answer when questioned about the hope that is in me. If I am witnessing the gospel by my life, others should see the light of Christ emanating from me and may become curious and want to ask about it. This is when I should be ready to provide that answer and witness to them in truth and love.

 

[Grazer]

I think you’re referring to 1 Peter: 3-15; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I don’t read this verse as giving defense or arguing. In my view, argue implies boldness and perhaps even bordering on arrogance not meekness. I read it as being ready to provide an answer when questioned about the hope that is in me. If I am witnessing the gospel by my life, others should see the light of Christ emanating from me and may become curious and want to ask about it. This is when I should be ready to provide that answer and witness to them in truth and love.

I see it as providing reasons for why we believe what we do, why we have hope; essentially providing a defense. As John Lennox has shown many times, you can do this and debate whilst still being humble.

 

[Free]

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, (ESV)

Ready to give an answer (ἕτοιμοι πρὸς ἀπολογίαν)
Lit., ready for an answer. Answer is our word apology, not in the popular sense of excuse, but in the more radical sense of defense. So it is translated Act 22:1; Phi 1:7, Phi 1:16. Clearing of yourselves, 2Co 7:11. (Vincent's Word Studies)

It is also worth noting that Peter wrote this during a time of persecution.