Why would Christ refer to this Gentile woman as "a dog?" Part 1

[journeymanisnothing]

I agree with that answer! And it plays right in with the explanation I will give in Part 2.

That would upd be a change.

 

[Charlie24]

That would upd be a change.

LOL, have we not agreed in the past?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

LOL, have we not agreed in the past?

Yes, but I was talking to a JW recently who seemed to disagree with what I showed him. I also disagree with how mainstream christianity portrays God and his gospel.
So it's a good change.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, but I was talking to a JW recently who seemed to disagree with what I showed him. I also disagree with how mainstream christianity portrays God and his gospel.
So it's a good change.

Looks as though we may have some things in common.

I've talked to many JW's over the years, and seem to have the same problem with them, lol.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Looks as though we may have some things in common.

I believe Jesus preached repentance for the forgiveness of sins. I believe he showed grace toward people who egregiously sinned against him, fulfilling the OT scriptures which teach how God is a merciful God who will forgive any sin, no matter how bad (and nothing is worse than what sinners did to him at Calvary. For this reason, there is no such thing as penal substitution.

I've talked to many JW's over the years, and seem to have the same problem with them, lol.

Not many want to admit that what sinners did to Jesus, they were doing to God.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe Jesus preached repentance for the forgiveness of sins. I believe he showed grace toward people who egregiously sinned against him, fulfilling the OT scriptures which teach how God is a merciful God who will forgive any sin, no matter how bad (and nothing is worse than what sinners did to him at Calvary. For this reason, there is no such thing as penal substitution.

Not many want to admit that what sinners did to Jesus, they were doing to God.

I believe that Christ suffered and took upon Himself the worst way of death know in that day, in order to pay for the worst sins committed. He was the satisfaction for all sin, just as John said.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I believe that Christ suffered and took upon Himself the worst way of death know in that day, in order to pay for the worst sins committed. He was the satisfaction for all sin, just as John said.

Let me ask you my friend, where.did John or anyone else say our Father was satisfied by his Son suffering in place of sinners?

I can show you from every writer of scripture how our Father was pleased that his Son endured sin against himself and showed great mercy to those sinners, bearing the sins committed against him with great patience... like our Father has throughout all history.

The Bible says throughout, Gods' wrath is reserved for unrepentant sinners. Never the righteous. Especially not the Son who well pleased him.

 

[Charlie24]

Let me ask you my friend, where.did John or anyone else say our Father was satisfied by his Son suffering in place of sinners?

I can show you from every writer of scripture how our Father was pleased that his Son endured sin against himself and showed great mercy to those sinners, bearing the sins committed against him with great patience... like our Father has throughout all history.

The Bible says throughout, Gods' wrath is reserved for unrepentant sinners. Never the righteous. Especially not the Son who well pleased him.

1 John 2:2
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The satisfaction is as wide as the sin, for the whole world. If man doesn't benefit from it, the problem is with man.

 

[Rookie]

Matt. 15:21-28
"Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

The apostles did not recognize that not only did this Gentile woman receive healing for her daughter, but she was saved by Grace through faith at that very moment!

The Jews referred to anyone who was not another Jew (Gentiles) as dogs, they believed they were the only ones God would accept, in other words, they were the only ones who would be saved! Christ confirmed that in Matt. 15:26. He also said that He had only come for the "lost sheep of Israel." So at this point, we the Gentiles are left out, so it seems to the Jews. But later "the mystery of the Ages" would be revealed to all mankind, that God has granted salvation to the Gentiles also!

Of course, God had salvation in mind for the Gentiles from the very beginning, but He kept it from the Jews, His chosen.

In case you are not aware, the nation of Israel today believes that all Gentiles are dogs, and they only are accepted of God! But we are not to shun Israel because of this! As Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved," and they will be our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in the future. Even though today "they are the enemies of the Cross" as Paul also said.

So what does all of this mean? Coming up in Part 2.

As Hidden In Him said, I hope you are seeking answers and not baiting

But nevertheless, I believe since the gentiles were regarded as the worldly heathens or the ones living in deliberate sin. Although Jesus didn't say her specifically as a dog, she belonged to a group that is like a present day godless person with no respect, recognition, or close to any reverence for God. Not cause of there race, but their hearts but they didn't know better, unlike the Israelites who did.

 

[Charlie24]

As Hidden In Him said, I hope you are seeking answers and not baiting

But nevertheless, I believe since the gentiles were regarded as the worldly heathens or the ones living in deliberate sin. Although Jesus didn't say her specifically as a dog, she belonged to a group that is like a present day godless person with no respect, recognition, or close to any reverence for God. Not cause of there race, but their hearts but they didn't know better, unlike the Israelites who did.

I'm going to explain the why in that question tomorrow, if you call that baiting, then that's what it is.

I'm not trying to set up anyone, it was impossible to get it all in with one post.

I have 3 maybe 4 ways to approach this, I'm still debating on which is the most understandable.

 

[Rookie]

Let me ask you my friend, where.did John or anyone else say our Father was satisfied by his Son suffering in place of sinners?

I can show you from every writer of scripture how our Father was pleased that his Son endured sin against himself and showed great mercy to those sinners, bearing the sins committed against him with great patience... like our Father has throughout all history.

The Bible says throughout, Gods' wrath is reserved for unrepentant sinners. Never the righteous. Especially not the Son who well pleased him.

God's wrath was satisfied because the penatly was paid. The wages of sin is death, and it doesn't care who's pays it, it can be us, or Jesus.

The sentence we deserved and the wrath we provoked was fully paid for on the cross, in other words, satisfied, not because Jesus sinned, but because he took on sin. That's why "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46.

Since God can't dwell where sin is (hence why we were kicked out of the garden and why God's Spirit cannot cause anyone to sin or be in anyone who sins) and there was a payment due, Jesus took that payment. And excecution was ordered, but Jesus stood in his way to take it. Now all we have to do is accept his offer and stand behind Jesus so that instead of God seeing our sinful selves, he sees His Son, who has already paid for our sin, but those who rebel stand away from Jesus, and then God looks away from Christ and sees us and delivers the blow since we aren't behind Jesus for Him to take it. But once the blow was delivered, and Jesus was raised, there was no more wrath or extra need to pay anything, for the debt had been satisfied. And remember, we were all once sinners and unrepentant until Christ brought us into His love, no one was born of God (Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.") So we all were automatically subjected to wrath, but the only one not born of or in sin was Christ. The only perfect One was Christ, so He took on our sin so He, the Innocent one, may be punish and satisfy our debt.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

1 John 2:2
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I'll answer the scripture you cited, but I would like you to comment on what I write specifically. I want you to look at what the law says,

If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deu.19::16-21

Now my question to you is simply, Do you agree with me that Jesus sinned against?
-------------------------------------------------

Jn.2:2 says that John wrote what he did so that believers wouldn't sin. Of course if we regarded sin as if we were pounding nails into Someone who loved us, we would never do it.

If committing sin was like beating your own son or daughter with a whip studded with shards of metal, you would never do it. But in that story, you play the part of our Father.
Jn.2:3 goes on to aay people who love God keep his commandments. We keep his commandments by loving our Father and our neighbors as we do ourselves.
That's what Jesus did. Our Lord was nobodys substitute whipping boy. He showed all the longsuffering and mercy of His Father because he's One with him.

And he is the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Of course our Father was satisfied.....that his Son showed great mercy to sinners by turning the other cheek.

Tell ya something else ya might not know, because it isn't recorded in the NT, but it isin the OT,

I gave My back to those who strike Me,
And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting. Isa.50:6

Did you know that Jesus held his anger back from people who pulled the hair out of his face?

The satisfaction is as wide as the sin, for the whole world. If man doesn't benefit from it, the problem is with man.

Actually, his mercy endures forever to anyone who believes the gospel. God took no satisfaction in how his Son was abused,

Please see Mt.21:33-42 on how God feels about Jesus' mistreatment.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God's wrath was satisfied because the penatly was paid. The wages of sin is death, and it doesn't care who's pays it, it can be us, or Jesus.

Hello Soldiers.
I don't recall speaking to you before, but I want you to know that for many years I believed in penal substitution, while also believing that to lie under oath causing an innocent man to die is wrong. But that's how insane I was by being indoctrinated with false teaching.

What you're saying is contrary to what scripture teaches. God doesn't allow "substitutionary sacrifice" for sin.

The word of the LORD came to me again:
What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? Eze.18:1-2

Soldiers, I used to use that proverb. I don't use it anymore. Read the chapter, think about Jesus, understand what God is saying and you won't use that proverb again.

The sentence we deserved and the wrath we provoked was fully paid for on the cross,

No it wasn't, because the law allows no killing against an innocent man at all.

in other words, satisfied, not because Jesus sinned, but because he took on sin. That's why "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46.

Please go read the Psa.22 without the preconceived idea that """Jesus was forsaken!!!!!!"""

Our Lord knew that whole psalm. Look at the passage where he cited it. What were the religious leaders saying to him? Were they right? They could recite the whole OT. Why would Jesus point them to Psa.22? Was he agreeing with them? I want you to tell me why Jesus quoted from the OT that says,

For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. Psa.22:24

Since God can't dwell where sin is (hence why we were kicked out of the garden and why God's Spirit cannot cause anyone to sin or be in anyone who sins) and there was a payment due, Jesus took that payment. And excecution was ordered, but Jesus stood in his way to take it. Now all we have to do is accept his offer and stand behind Jesus so that instead of God seeing our sinful selves, he sees His Son, who has already paid for our sin, but those who rebel stand away from Jesus, and then God looks away from Christ and sees us and delivers the blow since we aren't behind Jesus for Him to take it. But once the blow was delivered, and Jesus was raised, there was no more wrath or extra need to pay anything, for the debt had been satisfied. And remember, we were all once sinners and unrepentant until Christ brought us into His love, no one was born of God (Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.") So we all were automatically subjected to wrath, but the only one not born of or in sin was Christ. The only perfect One was Christ, so He took on our sin so He, the Innocent one, may be punish and satisfy our debt.

Well, I know the One who got nailed to a cross is sitting on the Throne now and still will be when people who didn't repent of it will be standing in judgement before him.

 

[dwb001]

Excuse me, but as one human being to another, If I came to you pleading for help for my kid and you said, "It isn't right to give what belongs to children to dogs"...
there is nothing in common with the event.

As one human to another I would probably misunderstand those words.
The truth remains that Jesus did not call her a dog.
Separate truth from feeling.
And it was a common event... happens at my house almost every day.
Dogs get the scraps from the table all the time.
We don't need to clean the floors very often.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

As one human to another I would probably misunderstand those words.
The truth remains that Jesus did not call her a dog.
Separate truth from feeling.
And it was a common event... happens at my house almost every day.
Dogs get the scraps from the table all the time.
We don't need to clean the floors very often.

Jews thought of gentiles as unclean animals. Any gentile in 1st century Israel would have understood a Jew calling her a dog as derogatory.

But this is a good example of theologians who can't separate truth from feeling, who don't want the gospel to offend anyone by teaching, "Jesus meant she was a happy little puppy dog."

Jesus called her a dog to humiliate her. To show us her humbleness,

 

[dwb001]

Jews thought of gentiles as unclean animals. Any gentile in 1st century Israel would have understood a Jew calling her a dog as derogatory.

But this is a good example of theologians who can't separate truth from feeling, who don't want the gospel to offend anyone by teaching, "Jesus meant she was a happy little puppy dog."

Jesus called her a dog to humiliate her. To show us her humbleness,

Except by the very reading of the text Jesus did not call her a dog.
The language does not say what you are saying.
I am not saying that Jesus called her a puppy.
I am saying the text does not say Jesus called her a dog.
Implied is not stated.
Why not just accept the text as written?
Why are you changing the text?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Except by the very reading of the text Jesus did not call her a dog.
The language does not say what you are saying.
I am not saying that Jesus called her a puppy.
I am saying the text does not say Jesus called her a dog.
Implied is not stated.
Why not just accept the text as written?
Why are you changing the text?

I understand that God looks at Jews and gentiles all the same. I understand yhat Jesus himself didn't think of Jews as superior to gentiles.

I'm saying, The womans perception and how she responded is what mattered.

She understood our Lords' words to her that her daughter was an unclean animal, a dog that returns to its own vomit.

 

[dwb001]

I understand that God looks at Jews and gentiles all the same. I understand yhat Jesus himself didn't think of Jews as superior to gentiles.

I'm saying, The womans perception and how she responded is what mattered.

She understood our Lords' words to her that her daughter was an unclean animal, a dog that returns to its own vomit.

Where did Jesus say that???
I am saying that the very idea you are putting out there is not in the text.
You are presuming what someone understood.
Do you want others to do that to you?
Is presuming someones understanding the right way to live?
Do you ask people what they believe or just assume?
Try to see things from another perspective once and a while.

 

[Highway54]

Matt. 15:21-28
"Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

The apostles did not recognize that not only did this Gentile woman receive healing for her daughter, but she was saved by Grace through faith at that very moment!

The Jews referred to anyone who was not another Jew (Gentiles) as dogs, they believed they were the only ones God would accept, in other words, they were the only ones who would be saved! Christ confirmed that in Matt. 15:26. He also said that He had only come for the "lost sheep of Israel." So at this point, we the Gentiles are left out, so it seems to the Jews. But later "the mystery of the Ages" would be revealed to all mankind, that God has granted salvation to the Gentiles also!

Of course, God had salvation in mind for the Gentiles from the very beginning, but He kept it from the Jews, His chosen.

In case you are not aware, the nation of Israel today believes that all Gentiles are dogs, and they only are accepted of God! But we are not to shun Israel because of this! As Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved," and they will be our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in the future. Even though today "they are the enemies of the Cross" as Paul also said.

So what does all of this mean? Coming up in Part 2.

In answer to your question Charlie, he didn't. It wasn't her time to receive the Kingdom message yet was what was being stated. That would come shortly after his death.

 

[Charlie24]

Matt. 15:21-28
"Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

The apostles did not recognize that not only did this Gentile woman receive healing for her daughter, but she was saved by Grace through faith at that very moment!

The Jews referred to anyone who was not another Jew (Gentiles) as dogs, they believed they were the only ones God would accept, in other words, they were the only ones who would be saved! Christ confirmed that in Matt. 15:26. He also said that He had only come for the "lost sheep of Israel." So at this point, we the Gentiles are left out, so it seems to the Jews. But later "the mystery of the Ages" would be revealed to all mankind, that God has granted salvation to the Gentiles also!

Of course, God had salvation in mind for the Gentiles from the very beginning, but He kept it from the Jews, His chosen.

In case you are not aware, the nation of Israel today believes that all Gentiles are dogs, and they only are accepted of God! But we are not to shun Israel because of this! As Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved," and they will be our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in the future. Even though today "they are the enemies of the Cross" as Paul also said.

So what does all of this mean? Coming up in Part 2.

Part 2

My prayer is that my position will be understood, This is not easy to explain, and if nothing else, I hope you can at least understand why I take this position. Then we can discuss it!

Any way you look at it this Gentile woman was shunned by Christ to a point. We want to determine why!

In Part 1, I said that the Jews believed salvation was only for them. If you remember in Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision of the "clean and the unclean" Which began the unveiling of "the Mystery" that Paul told us of, how that God had granted the salvation of the Gentiles. But has been hidden from the world, especially the Jews.

Co. 1:26-27
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

Rom. 11:11
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall (Israel) salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy."

After the vision that Peter received, which was God telling Peter, "don't call unclean that which I have made clean" God was referring to the Gentiles. The Jews seen the Gentiles as "unclean" and dogs not worthy of God.

Now the mystery is unfolded when God sent an angel to guide Peter to the house of Cornelius, who were Gentiles. Notice in Acts 10:45-46,

"And they of the circumcision (Jews) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,"

When Peter came to these Gentiles to preach, some of the believing Jews came with Him from the Church in Jerusalem. When they seen with their own eyes that these Gentiles were saved, they were "astonished" they were in shock, breath taken, to see that Gentiles could be saved.

So now the Mystery is revealed to the Jews, the Gentiles were also to receive salvation. BUT, God had hidden this from them! So again, the question arises, WHY? Now remember, when Christ met the Gentile woman who came for the healing of her daughter, Christ treated her as an outcast. The Jews at this time believed the Gentiles could not be saved, and Christ did not correct them on this! This is what we are seeking the answer for, why did Christ not correct them at that time, and treated her as an outcast being she was a Gentile?

Here is what I believe.

Christ plainly said, "I have come only to the house of Israel." Christ came only to bring salvation to the Jews, in return they were to accept Christ and proclaim Him to the world. In other words, the Jews had to believe and accept Christ before they could proclaim Christ to the Gentile world. Which was the calling of God for Israel.

Of course we know this didn't happen, the Jews rejected Christ and hung Him on a Cross! Pilate didn't want to do it, and tried every way he knew to stop it, but the Sanhedrin demanded that He be crucified.

But this was God's calling for Israel, that they were a chosen people to proclaim Christ to the Gentile world. They were the only nation on earth who received God's Law, in preparation for the coming Messiah, who God chose to come though this chosen people.

It is my belief that Christ shunned this Gentile woman for no other reason than the fact that she was a Gentile, to keep hidden from the Jews "The Mystery" that could not yet be revealed. That God had granted salvation to the Gentiles.

Israel would not have understood or accepted this, UNTIL they themselves came to faith in Christ.