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Why Would Jesus(PBUH) Have to Die on the Cross?

M

Muhsen

Guest
Why Would Jesus(PBUH) Have to Die on the Cross?

According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. The idea here is that every human is born with sins, or that all humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is: Why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn't God the one who makes the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice.

The Bible says:
- Ezekiel 18:20 " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
- Ezekiel 18:21 " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments.

Also, we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of Ecclesiastes 12:13, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of messages. It is that one should fear God, and keep the commandments, and nothing else.

Again in 2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." This clearly states that to seek forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray and seek God, and turn away from wickedness.

Finally, the Bible says in Samuel 15:22: "And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." This clearly states that obeying God is better than sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change His mind, and change His ways. God says in the Holy Qur'an, " Verily God is All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Ch 9: 28)

Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of these laws. Let's look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the law, the law of which had already existed. So what is mentioned above cannot be discounted. Then Jesus continues to say, in Matthew 5:18 and 19, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus here states that not even as much as a dot (tittle) shall pass from the law. Every thing is kept the way it was. That is why the previous laws cannot be removed or discarded, and those who willfully change these laws, "he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."
 
Hello again my friend, I've been viewing your site. Thank you again for sharing it with me. While I'm in disagreement with much of the conclusions there, I've found it to be rather insightful in understanding a bit more about your faith.

Muhsen said:
The question is: Why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it?
Click to expand...

-does not the scriptures before both Jesus and Muhammad(sp?) have sacrifices?

Isn't God the one who makes the rules?
Click to expand...

-yeppers, isn't He just awesome :)

Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins?
Click to expand...

-ah, but who say's He "has" to? I think we're getting a glimps of His mercy here :)

Isn't that unjust of Him?
Click to expand...

-now I know you're intelligent enough, and have enough theology background to know that the doorway to sin and false doctrine is a questioning of God's Holiness.

According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice.
Click to expand...

-Of course, but we've all sinned and fallen short. "Free-will" what a bummer some times huh

Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of these laws.
Click to expand...

-please add "some" before Christians there my friend. You're well aware that not all do.
 
If I have "Muhammad" mispelled please inform me, I do not want to give the impression of disrespect due to my unfamiliarity with the spelling of his name.
 
Salam sister, Thank you,

It’s not logically if anybody commits sin and wait from Jesus to take his sin by sacrifice
It will encourage people to commit sins, isn’t it?
The glimpse of His mercy, which he can give you, is to guide you to the true path and to do good deeds and avoid vile deeds. And the choice will be with you to choose the good deeds or vile deeds and in the judgment day the Day when you shall be brought back to Allah. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
 
Sara929 said:
If I have "Muhammad" mispelled please inform me, I do not want to give the impression of disrespect due to my unfamiliarity with the spelling of his name.
Click to expand...


It’s true sister it’s “Muhammad†(PBUH)
Thank you very much for your care
 
Actually I don't think that his Atonement, encourages people to commit sins. I know that many Christian pastors are afraid of discussing Grace, because of that fear though... how unfortunate. Personally, its shown me the severity of sin all the more.

I'm in complete agreement with you that glimpses of His attributes guide us in following the narrow path. :)

Oh "earned" is a whole other discussion lol.... but yes... there will be rewards in Heaven for how we handle the "Gifts" we've been handled on Earth :angel:
 
Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus, at this point, talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38 "Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me." Then Jesus went a little further away from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39: "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated this prayer three times) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I related this to my Christian colleagues, they told me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death" (Matthew 26:38). He himself says that it is really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.
what do you think?
 
See, I draw a different conclusion from Matthew 26:39
It shows us that Prayer is the answer to.... "everything" :) Jesus's soul was sorrowful than. Is it even possible for us to imagine a glimpse of the wrath that God was about to lay on Him for the iniquities of us?

My goodness, even the own sin from my own life causes me to tremble at realizing how much I've fallen short.... now multiply that by the body of Christ! How thankful we are that God answered Jesus's prayer, and removed that turmoil, giving Him the strength to know that it must be done, and to go through it.
 
None are able to live up to the standards of God--we all transgress His commands. It is this that means all men (and women of course0 have sinned. Sin keeps us from God. To teach mankind concerning this God instituted a system of sacrifices. His ruling was that sin had to be atoned for by the shedding of blood. It was the shedding of blood that would appease God's anger.

The animal sacrifices were simply to get into our understanding about what God Himself would do in the person of the Son of God Jesus Messiah (or Christ) Messiah.
 
thank you ,
Do you think that God almighty created us to transgress His commands, and commit sins and He will sacrifice his Son for us because we are sinners?!!!!
I think this is far away from truth. We think God created us to test our faith toward him
To worship him without partner. And in judgment day will punish us if we have sins.
And will reward us if we don’t have sins and have good deeds.



Allah almighty said:

AlMulk:2. Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;

Az-zariat:56. I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve me.

Al-kahf :4. And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allâh has begotten a son (or offspring or children)."
 
I think that Jesus is as a sin sacrifice is against the OT teachings. God (Yaweh) was one of the few gods that did not accept human sacrifices normally. (People did kill people to appease God, so it was a human sacrifice, but innocent people were not suppose to be killed for God.) So this would indicate that God would not set up an innocent (as He sees it) dieing for another.

Another problem is that any sacrifice has to be done by a Levi priest. Jesus is not a Levi so he can not sacrifice himself. The Bible tries to get around it by saying that Jesus is like the king that use to do some ceremonies in the past. The problem is that king existed before God proclaimed that only Levi priests could do rituals. Once God proclaimed it, such rules were gone.

Another prolem is that God allows for the scapegoat ceremony. The goat is not even killed and a tribe is forgiven of sins. So God could have used the scapegoat model on a global scale and noone had to die.

Also, nothing explains why Jesus had to go through this story. God could have had Jesus trip on a knife. Jesus dies for a second and God raises him from the dead. Poof. Everyone forgiven and Jesus just has a short period of pain.

Quath
 
Jesus was not just another man. He was God offering Himself up for the sins of mankind as a human being.
 
First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sinâ€Â. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.â€Â

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.†(Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.†(An-Nisa': 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.†(Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.†(Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.†(Al-Isra': 15)

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.†(Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.†(Al-Baqarah: 186)
So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."
 
The Jews I have talked to do not seem to see the Garden Story as Origin Sin either. However, most of the ones I talked to seemed to give a lot of leeway in interpretation of the Old Testament.

Quath
 
Muhsen said:
First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sinâ€Â. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.â€Â

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.†(Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.†(An-Nisa': 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.†(Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.†(Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.†(Al-Isra': 15)

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.†(Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.†(Al-Baqarah: 186)
So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."
Click to expand...
Muhsen do you se this as sin?
Quit a busy year for ISLAM, and now ladies and gentlemen the winner of last year’s victimisation goes to non other than ISLAM congratulation for being such violent and vicious people, I bet you will get next years noble price for promoting peace, love and understanding.

Mrs Hanifan Bibi, aged around 56, is a Pakistani woman who works as a domestic servant. Her employer, who follows that majority faith in Pakistan, (Islam) abducted her along with her husband, son and nephew on 10th January. They suspended her upside down by her feet, and beat her severely with a hot metal pope. They took her clothes off in front of her male relatives, forced her to drink wine, and filmed her. They also beat her relatives. After two days her captors took her to a police station and tried to implicate her in a case of theft. Christian lawyers in Pakistan are seeking to get justice for Hanifan. Pray that they will succeed and also for her healing from the severe physical injury and the emotional trauma. Many Christian women are domestic servants who suffer sever abuse but dare not report it for fear of further victimisation by their influential employers of the majority faith (Islam).

When MA left his old faith Islam to become a Christian, his family and friends began to monitor his every movement. They soon discovered he was going church and Bible study meetings. His family hired a group of young men to attack him and beat him up. They told him that, if he did not return to his former faith Islam, â€Ânext time we’ll kill youâ€Â

According to reports from Jordan, a Christian has been formally found guilty in a Shari’a (Islamic law) court of apostasy from Islam. It is believed to be the first time this has happened in Jordan, and thus sets an alarming precedent, previously the harassment of converts from Islam was limited to being interrogated and detained for a few days at a time. At the time of writing it is not know what sentence will be given. Shari’a prescribes not only the death sentence but also a wide variety of other sanctions to punish apostates. Some observers think the Shari’a judge was very reluctant to bring in a guilty verdict but felt he had no option.

Two churches in Palu City, central Sulawesi, Indonesia, were attacked during their evening services on Sunday 12th December. One attack was from four men on motorbikes who opened fire, the sped away, having seriously injured two people in the back row. The other attack was a bomb which seriously injured a guard, Palu police chief has since been dismissed for alleged negligence having failed to follow instructions to increase police protection at places of worship ahead of Christmas and New Year. The provincial police had ordered that all churches be guarded by two policeman uniformed and two plain-clothes policemen.

Police in the Philippines announced that they had foiled a planned suicide attack on a major Christian festival in January. Two days before the festival the police arrested 16 suspected militants and seized three homemade bombs and other weapons.
A 24 year-old man from Zamboanga City in the southern Philippines was shot by militants on 17 November 2004. They left him for dead, but he survived. The man had converted to Christianity from Islam and had been active in sharing his new faith, resulting in other members of his family becoming Christians and several death threats to himself. The victim’s older brother had also been shot at by militants a few months earlier.

Santino Garang a Sudanese Christian boy of seven, was sold to a Sudanese Arab a muslim as a slave in 1987. Through ten long years of cruel treatment Santino did not forget his Christian faith. Then one Sunday morning he heard Christians singing and left the camels he was caring for to join the worship, remembering the church services of his childhood. While he was worship some of the camels escaped. His furious master beat him brutally and then nailed him to wooden plank through his hands, knees and feet. He poured acid on Santion’s legs and left him to die. However, his master’s son brought him food and water, and after a week took him to hospital. His master had no further use for Santino because he nails driven through his knees had disabled him. He sold Santino, who was eventually able to return to his village. There the elders gave him a new name “Joseph†prayer is asked for Joseph who is still in great pain, physically and emotionally. “He bears the marks of his crucifixion in his body, and the scars of his torment in his soul.â€Â
Continue to pray for Yakup Cindilli, the Turkish Christian who was beaten into coma for distributing Bibles in the street in October 2003. At long last he is well enough to go to church again, and has spoken of how he felt GOD’S hand on him, keeping him even though the doctors in ambulance thought he would not get to hospital alive.

Pray for Christians in Iran, especially those who have come to Christ form the majority faith Islam. There is an Iranian law, which specifies a death sent4ence for those who leave the majority faith Islam, but has not been practised since 3rd December 1989. The government focus its harassment on church leaders, not on ordinary believers

On 20th December three more church properties were attacked in Mosul, Iraq. One of them had already been attacked just two weeks earlier, along with another church on the same day. Also in December at least four Iraqi Christians were abducted and killed, and a Christian doctor was shot while treating his patients he died later. On 17th January Archbishop Basile Georges Casmoussa (66) was kidnapped form outside his church in Mosul. While all Iraq citizens live with constant violence. Christians fell themselves to be at extra risk because of certain factions who resent their presence in the country.

Man y supporters have contacted Barnabas Fund to ask abut the four Iraqi Christian girls kidnapped on their way home from church by 17 men of the majority faith Islam, kept naked and repeatedly raped. The girl’s humiliation was so great that their one desire was to be dead and forgotten. (Yeah I would wish to be dead and forgotten to). Our partners in the Middle East are actively seeking news about these girls, but at the time of writing have no update on their plight.

Christians are continuing to flee Iraq in large numbers, fearing that they will never be allowed to live there in peace again. Pray for the refugees as they try to make new lives for themselves. Pray for those who remain either through commitment to their homeland or because they are too poor too leave.

It is reported that a Saudi Arabian man was arrested on 29th November 2004 for converting from Islam to Christianity Emad Alaabadi was intercepted by the religious police as he drove his children home from school. According to Saudi law, leaving Islam is a crime, which carries the death sentence. Pray for Emad who has almost certainly been severely tortured in prison, that the Lord Jesus Christ will give him grace to endure.

Christians in Egypt became so enraged at what they must endure that they demonstrated in there thousands in various Egyptian cities on 5th and 6th December 2004. The last straw, which triggered the demonstration, was apparently the news that the wife of a Coptic Orthodox priest had disappeared and converted to Islam. The woman was later returned to the community and re-affirmed her Christian faith. One of the major grievances of Egyptian Christians is the frequent abduction and forced conversion of many of their women and girls; less prominent cases rarely end as happily as this one. Young Christians men are often forced to convert to Islam by being picked up by the police and falsely accused of having illegal drugs; they are told the charges will be dropped if they convert to Islam. Other Christians are offered houses, money or jobs if they will become Muslims. Pray for justices and equality for Egyptian Christians who have lived as second-class citizens for fourteen centuries
chana
 
Muhsen said:
WHY DID THEY BECOME MUSLIMS?

http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Why_Become_Muslims/3.htm
Click to expand...

AND WHY DID MUSLIMS BECOME CHRISTIANS? BECAUSE THEY FOUND THE TRUTH. AND PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION, IT IS SO TYPICAL ISLAM THEY DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO ANSWER ONES QUESTION BUT ASK YOU SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT OY VE HERE WE GO AGAIN DO YOU MYHSEN CONSIDER THE MAIL I HAVE POSTED AS A SIN YES OR NO YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. AND IF YOU DON'T ANSWER I WILL TAKE IT FOR AN YES
SHALOM IN THE NAME OF YESHUA SOON COMING YOUR WAY
 
We see no response to the violence and murder enacted in the name of Sharia Law!
 
In Islam, violence and murder is forbidden and God will throw killers in the hell fire

Allah almighty said:

[Al-nissa:93]
If a man kills a Believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (forever): and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

so some bad Muslims behavior not reflect Islam law
 
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