Wicca

[Imagican]

** I am not promoting wicca. This is an honest question. **

According to the information at religioustolerance.org, wicca has influences in celtic religions that pre-date Christianity. How can something be 'against Jesus' if it began before his time?

What???????????

It's not really about Jesus. It's about God. If you will read the OT you will clearly see how God feels about man creating other 'things' to worship. Nothing pre dates the Creator. And all indication is that Christ existed before man was created.

And YES, ANYTHING one worships as deity other than God is of 'the master of this world'. We were warned that there would come a time when 'even Christians would worship the creation rather than the Creator'. So this rampantly accelerated interest of all things 'new age' is not surprising.

At the time that Moses brought God's law to His people, the punishment for witchcraft was 'death by stoning'. That's how God felt about witches. Wicca is just another form of witchcraft, nothing more.

You will find throughout the OT references to planting 'groves'. Wicca and many other pagan religions are involved with the worship of nature and 'trees' in particular. God considers these religions 'Spiritual Adultery'. Being untrue to Him.

Guys and Gals, satan is working over time subverting the masses by turning them away from God. This is 'his job'. He wanted to 'be God' and being worshiped by men is exactly what he desires MOST. Since he is the master of this world, worshiping the 'things' of this world are no different than worshiping the master of them 'himself'. All worship that is not confined to God is unacceptable to our Creator. He is a jealous God and has brought MUCH hardship upon those that refuse to bow to Him and instead worship objects of their choosing from the things that He created. It's called 'Spiritual Adultery' or 'idolatry'.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

** I am not promoting wicca. This is an honest question. **

According to the information at religioustolerance.org, wicca has influences in celtic religions that pre-date Christianity. How can something be 'against Jesus' if it began before his time?

While many religious practices pre-date Christianity as that was begun by Christ, none of them pre-date the beginning of time as we know it and that was created by God almighty, through Jesus Christ, the Word. Since the fall man has tried in vain to find peace through many religious paths but none can truly be had until we find ourselves IN Jesus Christ.

 

[Vanaka]

my dad knew a Women that was a third generation witch,she had alot of demons,happily she was saved.

 

[guibox]

Oh brother, wicca does not stem from satanism...give me a break of course it does, just like any other lie does.

What these "ex-satanist" of whom I am one, miss is that satanism is not this pittifull little thing they do, that is the lie that satan used with them

Henry, do you mind sharing your testimony? How were you a Satanist and to what degree?

 

[sparrow]

** I am not promoting wicca. This is an honest question. **

According to the information at religioustolerance.org, wicca has influences in celtic religions that pre-date Christianity. How can something be 'against Jesus' if it began before his time?

problem with that is Wicca was cobbled together roughly 50 years ago.
pieced together from various things. it really isn't an old religion at all.

oh and Henry... there is a difference between being something that Satan is
pushing.. and stemming from satanism.


mark

 

[Quadeshet]

I understand that, that's why I used the word 'influences' in regards to the religion of the ancient celts.

Religions evolve with society, and all religions were new at some time.

I suppose a clarification of my question would be how can a religion that predates or does not originate from christianity be considered 'against' christianity? Do all christians assume that if something is not from your own particular god, it is automatically bad?

I know it sounds naive, I just have never had a straight answer.

 

[sparrow]

I understand that, that's why I used the word 'influences' in regards to the religion of the ancient celts.

Religions evolve with society, and all religions were new at some time.

I suppose a clarification of my question would be how can a religion that predates or does not originate from christianity be considered 'against' christianity? Do all christians assume that if something is not from your own particular god, it is automatically bad?

I know it sounds naive, I just have never had a straight answer.

Thank you for clarifying your question.
and please, allow me to provide a straight answer for you.

Yes, any spiritual path that leads people away from Jesus is indeed
considered bad, as Jesus is the only way to the Father in Heaven.

 

[bornagainpagan]

At the time that Moses brought God's law to His people, the punishment for witchcraft was 'death by stoning'. That's how God felt about witches. Wicca is just another form of witchcraft, nothing more.

You will find throughout the OT references to planting 'groves'. Wicca and many other pagan religions are involved with the worship of nature and 'trees' in particular. God considers these religions 'Spiritual Adultery'. Being untrue to Him.

This last phrase stuck out to me and I hope that by sharing some of my own experiences and part of my Testimony coming to Christ from the occult will help explain this concept of 'Spiritual Adultery' to some...

I was a Christian and had been for a number of years - but I was a broken man. I had lost everyone and everything that was dear to me. I had lost my wife, my self respect and most telling of all , I had lost my faith... I still believed, but I had no faith! And so I began to wander through life fairly aimlessly - disillusioned with the Church, with God, with myself and with life in general - looking for answers but finding none.

I became intrigued with the occult. I read copiously and found a power that I felt I lacked, and most importantly, I found something that I sorely needed... a place to belong.

I began to practice daily rituals, relied on divination before making decisions and made contacts within the Pagan community, joining the Pagan Alliance and traveling to attend major gatherings, though I was still, at this time, what is known as a 'Solitaire', one who practiced alone rather than in a Coven.

Cutting a long story short, I eventually found myself in regional Western Australia, and traveling the 200kms to Perth every week for a year or so, to train with the Coven that I was originally Initiated into.

I met other Pagans in my own area and a "study circle" formed consisting of a number of Seekers as well as 1st and 2nd Degree Wiccan Initiates. The 'powers-that-be' in Perth decided to give the group 'official' recognition and I was installed as the High Priest - and so the 'Circle of the Mystic Moon' was formed.

Coming from a Christian background to Paganism I had a much stronger evangelistic bent than Pagans normally do, and the new Coven ran ads in the local press announcing our first formal 'Outer Court' training session. All concerned - in what some considered to be the 'buckle of the Bible belt' - realized that there was bound to be a response from local Christians, but no-one could have anticipated quite the reaction it received!

A number of Christians wrote venomous letters to the paper denouncing the 'Satanists in our midst', making all the usual accusations about blood sacrifices, orgies and the worship of a devil that no-one in the group believed in. Even the 'Christian Democratic Party' jumped into the fray with the local candidate publicly calling for us to be 'run out of town'!

Coven members cars were vandalised, female Coveners were verbally abused in the street, and dead cats were thrown on the front porch of our Covenstead. Any thoughts of somehow 'going back to God' were shattered as a result of these shining examples of 'Christian love', which culminated in the physical assault of our High Priestess in the car park of a local shopping centre.

And as a result the Coven progressively moved away from it's Wiccan origins, and members, bit by bit, begun to perform 'darker' workings. The 'Wiccan Rede' ('Do as thou wilt, an' it harm none') was abandoned and what became known as 'The Rite of Vengence' was accepted into the Coven's 'Book of Shadows'. This was even reflected in the Coven's Motto: "Sic Gorgiamus Alius Subjectatus Nunc" ("We Gladly Devour All those Who Would Subdue Us").

Undeterred by the 'opposition' we began producing our own magazine, and the group became a visible presence at events such as 'Balingyup Medieval Fayre' and hosted officially sanctioned Halloween and Yule Rituals as part of the the town's Year 2000 celebrations!

But personally, I was a mess inside - worse than I had ever been! I knew that what I was involved in was against God - I guess I had known it from day one, but had been too angry about the attacks against Coven members by professing Christians to pay these doubts any heed. But as the voices against us were shamed into silence I had time to look at myself - and I did not like what I saw! I so much wanted to experience God's forgiveness for all that I had done, but was convinced that I had 'blasphemed against the Holy Spirit', the one sin the Bible says can never be forgiven (Mark 3:28-29)!

Convinced that no matter what I did I was merely "storing up wrath for [myself] in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God" (Romans 2:5) I stood down as High Priest, saying I was taking a 'temporary leave of absence' due to the stress of leading the Coven for the past few years when the persecution had been at its peak, and passed full control of the Coven into the hands of my High Priestess.

Burdened with guilt and fear for the future I fell apart. I was truly beginning to reap what I had sown and lost everything that I held most dear - even my partner. After six years together we split up and I was left totally alone, living in the garage of a friend who had taken pity on me.

Too depressed to want to live, but in too much fear of God's judgement to hasten it by committing suicide I was truly going mad, and on a Disability Pension, when nearly one day I was driving past a small suburban Church. For some reason I was thinking about my ex-wife, the girl I had married when I was first a Christian all those years ago.

I guess God can even use madness, because my thoughts ran like this... I remembered that when I was about to get get married, the pastor slapped me on the back and said "Welcome to the sufferings of Christ"! Now the Church is referred to in the Bible as the 'Bride of Christ' (Revelation 21:9) and the passages in the Books of Hebrews and Colossians concerning the difference between the Old Covenant of the Law of Moses and the New Covenant of Grace through Jesus Christ ran through my head (Hebrews 8-10; Colossians 2), when it occurred to me that each Covenant was like a Marriage Contract, and that the New Convenant could not be entered into without the 'death' of the Old Covenant. God didn't just 'divorce' Himself from the Old Covenant - it had to be "nailed to the cross" (Colossian 2:14) and die!

"Oh great!" I thought "That means because I divorced my wife and she hasn't died that every relationship I have been in since has been adulterous! Well at least adultery can be forgiven even if blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can't..." Just then an image filled my mind of the Pagan altars the Israelites had worshipped at in the time of Jeremiah and how God did not turn his back on them but invited them to repent (Jeremiah 3:6-14)

And it dawned on me, I had not yet committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but 'spiritual adultery'! And that - as bad as it was - could be forgiven! And for the first time in years this passage came to mind...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16-17)

Now all this happened in the time it took to drive past a small suburban church! It's a bit hard to fall on knees while you're driving, but I knew that if God wanted me back, I wanted to be back with Him!

It hasn't always been easy being an exWitch. In fact, at times it's been pretty miserable, but I know that whatever I go through in this life, whether good or bad, is nothing compared to the reward of being with Christ rather than being eternally separated from Him!

I avoided 'giving my testimony' for the first 18 months - only my Pastor and one of the Elders was privy to the details of my past. In fact it was only recently that I discovered that people from that very Church I was driving past when God grabbed me by the scruff of the neck - the Church I attend today - while others had hurled abuse at me and had threatened me with violence in God's name for being a Witch, had prayed FOR me... that I might come to Christ, that I might be saved!

One thought I would like to sign off on is this... "Rebellion [against God] is as the sin of Witchcraft..." (1 Samuel 15:33 - KJV) While we as humans often 'rank' sins as being somehow 'better' or 'worse' than others ALL sin is rebellion against God and He sees ALL sin in the same light as what many consider the WORST of all sins...."...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." but "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16-17)

Yes... even Witches...

:-D

 

[Cern]

Oh brother, wicca does not stem from satanism...give me a break of course it does, just like any other lie does.

What these "ex-satanist" of whom I am one, miss is that satanism is not this pittifull little thing they do, that is the lie that satan used with them.

True satanism is the rejection of Jesus PERIOD and ANYTHING that does that is as good as the next thing as far as satan is concerned.

Wicca is just another lie of satan and as long as people eat it up, he keep dishing it out. But when they stop, well he'll just go for the next fad, like I said he doesn't really care as long it is not JESUS

Er, Henry, I think yur understanding of Satanism is a little limited. There are many different kinds of Satanism. Each one differs.

You present the opinion that rejection of Jesus is Satanism. The Jews reject Jesus. Are they Satanists? Many faiths reject Jesus. It is quite important when speaking of the occult to get the terminology correct. In order to do that you need to make sure you have a fairly good understanding of the perspective held by those who claim to follow what might be termed an occult path. Now that is actually quite a challenge as there are quite a few very different Pagan paths.

So perhaps you don't consider it a part of your personal calling to witness to Pagans and those involved in the occult. (By your lack of accuracy and understanding I'd say that is where you're at. If not then I really would recommend you consider how you might reach someone if you make false statements about their beliefs and practices. There's quite enough of that kind of thing going on with ALL religions). If that is the case, then it might be worthwhile listening to those who do believe they have such a calling, rather than simply stating ill informed opinions.You wouldn't want to be the obstacle to someone within the occult finding Christ would you?

This is probably unfair of me, picking on your message in particular. Quite a few of the messages on this thread are ill informed.

Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner probably sometime between the 1930's and 1940's. The first publication that illustrated aspects of wicca was 'High Magics Aid'- Gardners fictional account of witchcraft in the British Isles. That came out just before the repeal of the witchcraft act in 1951. After which Gardner published more works that were non fictional.

Gardner had some involvement with Masonry (there is your first link with ceremonial stuff) and there is some evidence to suggest at least a tentative link with Aleister Crowley. I'll not post an entire history of the development of Wicca (it is an extremely complex tale involving all sorts of twists and turns). If you wish to comment on the origins of Wicca, it would be wise to make sure you are grounded in your theme.

Someone commented that they believed the Exodus 22:18 quote was a mistranslation. Whilst it is true that the move from Hebrew to Greek did involve some translational difficulties (Pharmakea sp. for witch when other Greek phrases might have been closer) the original Hebrew does indeed say 'witch'. I have this on good authority from a Jewish witch- Jewish by birth, witch by choice and calling. Interestingly, I've had it on equally good authority from a Messianic Jew that the 'not suffering a witch to live' bit has been interpreted as killing witches. This interpretation does not take into consideration the many different ways in which a person can be considered 'dead' to a Jewish community. Not all involve the physical death and it is highly likely that the 'shunning as if someone was dead' approach, with all the ripping of clothes and gnashing of teeth accompanying it, was the method intended. A look into Jewish tradition and culture, both of the time and today would support such an interpretation.

Now as to whether scripture suggests Wicca is wrong or not, I don't think there is any question about that. Of course it does. But then it also implies that any other belief or practice that effectively turns away from the Christian God is wrong.

There is a belief within many Pagan circles that all paths are valid in their approach to God/Deity. I don't subscribe to that. I believe all paths are valid attempts to approach God/Deity. However, I also believe all paths contain elements that are just plain wrong- Christian, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim.... my own. We cannot fully know deity/God. We fill in the gaps. It is Christian belief that the Bible reveals God. That's cool... except it is a belief, the same as any other belief. It has the potential for human flaws, the asme as any other belief. What makes a Christian hold that the bible is the word of God and that God is revealed in the Bible? Faith. If we bring in the concept of personal experience or personal relationship then we have to take into account the possibility of self delusion (perhaps influenced by a knowledge of scripture). Now as a believer of a different kind, I understand a little about faith. My own beliefs rely quite heavily upon faith. But I'm not afraid to accept that I may have misplaced my faith upon death. I simply won't know until then. In the meantime I must go with what I have discovered in my explorations in matters of faith. The same can be said of Wiccans.

In your approach to Wiccans, you might well consider Ephesians 6 and the armour of God passage. Note carefully that you're not fighting the flesh, but the spirit. In 2 Timothy (and elsewhere- Peter?) there is comment about being willing to instruct, but being gentle in doing so. Then of course, who can forget Francis of Assissi with his comments about preaching the Gospel at all times, sometimes using words. I've found more in the actions of Christians who approach their witnessing by living as Christlike a life as possible than I have in those who would shout me down for the 'evil Pagan I am.'

Just a few thoughts to consider.

BB

Mike

 

[Soma-Sight]

There is a belief within many Pagan circles that all paths are valid in their approach to God/Deity. I don't subscribe to that. I believe all paths are valid attempts to approach God/Deity. However, I also believe all paths contain elements that are just plain wrong- Christian, Wiccan, Jewish, Muslim.... my own. We cannot fully know deity/God. We fill in the gaps. It is Christian belief that the Bible reveals God. That's cool... except it is a belief, the same as any other belief. It has the potential for human flaws, the asme as any other belief. What makes a Christian hold that the bible is the word of God and that God is revealed in the Bible? Faith. If we bring in the concept of personal experience or personal relationship then we have to take into account the possibility of self delusion (perhaps influenced by a knowledge of scripture). Now as a believer of a different kind, I understand a little about faith. My own beliefs rely quite heavily upon faith. But I'm not afraid to accept that I may have misplaced my faith upon death. I simply won't know until then. In the meantime I must go with what I have discovered in my explorations in matters of faith. The same can be said of Wiccans.

Very Good!

Often times people believe that there unverified Faith claims are indeed common place knowledge.

But it all comes down to FAITH as you have said here.