Will the Holy Spirit be removed from the earth,as in 2Thess2v7.

[ivanm]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2Thess2v7.

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2v28.

"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2v17.

God bless...Ivanm

 

[D4Christ]

Thru my studies, I do not believe that 2 thess 2 is referring to the HS being removed. The HS has never before in scriptures been described as having a "holding" or restraining ministry. There is only one in the bible that I have found to fit this description.

 

[Lehigh3]

The Holy Spirit will never be removed- the church is forever & ever (Eph.3:21)

Paul told the early Christians to prophecy according to your measure of faith. And what a lack of understanding goes with the "last day madness" crowd!

Who was "he" that was restraining? This was who was in political power at the time.
He was Claudius, emperor #5, whose wife(Agrippina) was secretly planning (& did) poison him, so that her son, Nero could get the throne.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What we must consider when discussing the availability and distribution of the HS is that it was not something that historically was readily available to all. Before the "last days" of Jesus and his disciple's time, the spirit was given selectively and rarely to individuals God chose such as the judges, Elijah, select kings, etc. Then the time of Jesus came and just as Joel prophesied, there was an outpouring of the spirit on all flesh in those last days. This was a peculiar time, the mid 1st century as many miracles were done my many different people. Was this type of massive outpouring promised to continue indefinately? The fact is that the scriptures do not tell us that would be the case, so to say it is is pure speculation. Some would in fact pose the argument that the scriptures, specifically 1 Cor 13 tells us that this outpouring would come to an end. I personally hesitate to fully jump on that bandwagon because the text only tells us that tongues, prophecy, and special knowledge would cease not that the outpouring of the spirit would end.
What we are left to wonder is that after the last day generation who experienced this outpouring of God's spirit passed on, how or even was the spirit continually poured out. And we must wonder whether there will again come a time where God's spirit is poured out for the masses to receive so that more people can one day be sealed by it as the first century saints were.

 

[Enveida]

Thru my studies, I do not believe that 2 thess 2 is referring to the HS being removed. The HS has never before in scriptures been described as having a "holding" or restraining ministry. There is only one in the bible that I have found to fit this description.

I agree...

 

[Vic C.]

Thru my studies, I do not believe that 2 thess 2 is referring to the HS being removed. The HS has never before in scriptures been described as having a "holding" or restraining ministry. There is only one in the bible that I have found to fit this description.

I agree and I believe Michael best fits the description.

As for Acts 2v17, Peter quoted Paul for a reason and it wasn't to remind people of a prophecy that was to occur some 2,000 + years in the future.

 

[Lehigh3]

by Truth over Tradition,

Was this type of massive outpouring promised to continue indefinately? The fact is that the scriptures do not tell us that would be the case, so to say it is is pure speculation. Some would in fact pose the argument that the scriptures, specifically 1 Cor 13 tells us that this outpouring would come to an end

Are you speaking about the Holy Spirit not being present on earth since the "miracles" of the 1st century?!! I cannot fathom that. Especially as a Trinitarian.
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And also how can one be Christ's if they don't have the Spirit. According to Paul, they aren't Christ's until they receive the Spirit.
While, rushing I don't see any scripture that confirms the H.S. being forever verbatim, but there are verses that allude to it & support the H.S. being present forever & ever in the kingdom of God.
Jesus told the Pharisees that blasphemy of the H.S. would not be forgiven in this age (the mosaic age that was about to end in 40 yrs) OR in the age to come- which came & the gospel age or church age was announced at the "last trumpet" (Rev.11)
There are some who believe the "gifts" of the H.S. would end. (As in 1 Cor.13) But I hadn't heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit wouldn't be with "us" forever once we received & didn't reject Him.
I am not a "cessationalist" I think the "gifts" of the Spirit have lost potency & have been watered down in power- but we definitely still have the "fruits" of the Spirit. And I do desire the better gifts.

We agree probably 50% though.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

by Truth over Tradition,


Are you speaking about the Holy Spirit not being present on earth since the "miracles" of the 1st century?!! I cannot fathom that. Especially as a Trinitarian.
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And also how can one be Christ's if they don't have the Spirit. According to Paul, they aren't Christ's until they receive the Spirit.
While, rushing I don't see any scripture that confirms the H.S. being forever verbatim, but there are verses that allude to it & support the H.S. being present forever & ever in the kingdom of God.
Jesus told the Pharisees that blasphemy of the H.S. would not be forgiven in this age (the mosaic age that was about to end in 40 yrs) OR in the age to come- which came & the gospel age or church age was announced at the "last trumpet" (Rev.11)
There are some who believe the "gifts" of the H.S. would end. (As in 1 Cor.13) But I hadn't heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit wouldn't be with "us" forever once we received & didn't reject Him.
I am not a "cessationalist" I think the "gifts" of the Spirit have lost potency & have been watered down in power- but we definitely still have the "fruits" of the Spirit. And I do desire the better gifts.

We agree probably 50% though.

Initially I believed I had the spirit in me. I believed this to be the case for decades until I really took a deep dive into the study of the matter and then did an honest assessment of myself. What I found out was that there is no way I could substantiate my claim that I had the spirit of God in me. Does that mean I didn't or do not believe the gospel and follow the instructions of scripture, NO. What it means is that unlike the saints of the 1st century I, nor any of the christians I know of could substantiate our claim of being spirit filled.

I am not saying that no one has received the HS since the 1st century, but what I am saying is that no evidence exists that would indicate that such a massive outpouring has been ongoing. The 1st century seems to have been a "blip" on the radar of history and since that time everything has apparently gone back to "normal" (pre-1st century) as it pertains to the distribution of God's HS.

Unlike most believers, I find the trinity doctrine to be Biblically errant and I believe that as we read the scriptures it is a mistake to apply everything we read to our generation as if the previous 50 generations and especially the initial generation since the 1st century were irrelavant and not the specific audience for the writings.

I believe God's spirit is still just as potent and powerful as ever (It's God's Spirit, how could we expect any less!?), but I do see a reason to believe God has poured it out since the 1st century. Where is the evidence for that occuring?

 

[Joe67]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2Thess2v7.

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2v28.

"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2v17.

God bless...Ivanm

Ivanm,

The Lord has given me convictions that are of the same picture.

Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. KJV

Gen 6:5-7
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. KJV

Rev 18:5
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. KJV

Our sins are the greatest of all.

Joe

 

[cleanfreak]

Initially I believed I had the spirit in me. I believed this to be the case for decades until I really took a deep dive into the study of the matter and then did an honest assessment of myself. What I found out was that there is no way I could substantiate my claim that I had the spirit of God in me. Does that mean I didn't or do not believe the gospel and follow the instructions of scripture, NO. What it means is that unlike the saints of the 1st century I, nor any of the christians I know of could substantiate our claim of being spirit filled.

I am not saying that no one has received the HS since the 1st century, but what I am saying is that no evidence exists that would indicate that such a massive outpouring has been ongoing. The 1st century seems to have been a "blip" on the radar of history and since that time everything has apparently gone back to "normal" (pre-1st century) as it pertains to the distribution of God's HS.

Unlike most believers, I find the trinity doctrine to be Biblically errant and I believe that as we read the scriptures it is a mistake to apply everything we read to our generation as if the previous 50 generations and especially the initial generation since the 1st century were irrelavant and not the specific audience for the writings.

I believe God's spirit is still just as potent and powerful as ever (It's God's Spirit, how could we expect any less!?), but I do see a reason to believe God has poured it out since the 1st century. Where is the evidence for that occuring?

Very interesting ToT. How does the "fruit" of the Spirit come into play? I see many who have these fruits including myself. How is it possible to have these fruits, but no Spirit?

 

[Sam21]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2Thess2v7.

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2v28.

"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2v17.

God bless...Ivanm

"be taken out of the way" is not what Paul wrote, that has been added. Read it this way,"he(unknown) who restrains until out of midst(humanity) he(antichrist)become, then will that wicked one be revealed. There is no restrainer taken out of the way, in the first place that does not even make sense, something strong enough to restrain the antichrist is "taken out of the way"??? Only God can restrain the antichrist and why would God take God out of the way? The bible does not teach the removable of the Holy Spirit because others are saved after the gathering of the church and there is no salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Joe67]

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; KJV

When we have fallen away (back into bondage or fallen away into counting liberty as license) then we do not understand the issue of the man of sin being revealed. The man of sin must needs be revealed, that our Lord Jesus can consume and destroy him permanently.

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, KJV

Our Lord's coming is after the Wicked is revealed and Satan works with all power and signs and lying wonders. The Wicked is not revealed until the "mystery of iniquity" is taken away. The "mystery of iniquity" is that elementary work of God that restrains the lust of our flesh and the lust of our eyes.

Rom 4:7
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, KJV

2 Tim 2:19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. KJV

Luke 13:27
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
KJV

Joe

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Very interesting ToT. How does the "fruit" of the Spirit come into play? I see many who have these fruits including myself. How is it possible to have these fruits, but no Spirit?

CF,

For years this was my spiel and what I used as "evidence" for the indwelling of the HS. The problem with that approach was that there are atheists and the non religious who also share these same charactor traits. In other words since these fruits are not exclusive to christians, how can their presence be used as proof that one has the spirit?

As we consider the entire context of the passage in Galatians 5 that talks about the fruit of the spirit, we must recall that what Paul is doing is comparing the "works of the flesh" with the "fruit of the spirit". He is telling the christians to whom he wrote the qualities that should be in them.

13 You were called to be free, brothers! So don’t use this freedom to serve your flesh; [use it] to slave for each other in love. 14 Because, the entire Law is fulfilled in the words: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 15 However, if you keep on snapping at each other and chewing each other up, be careful that you don’t swallow each other down!
16 I tell you this: If you keep walking by the Breath, you won’t do anything that your flesh desires. 17 For, what the flesh wants is at odds with what the Breath wants, and the Breath is at odds with the flesh – they are in opposition to each other – so you don’t do the things that you may like to do. 18 And if the Breath is leading you, you aren’t under the Law!
19 Now, the things that the flesh does are known. They include sexual immorality, uncleanness, unseemly acts, 20 worshiping idols, involvement in the occult, hatred, quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, divisions, sects, 21 envying, getting drunk, wild partying, and things like that. I’m warning you now as I’ve warned you before, that those who do such things won’t inherit God’s Kingdom.
22 However, the fruitage of [God’s] Breath is love, joy, peace, patience, caring, goodness, faith, 23 reasonableness, and self-control… and there are no laws against such things. 24 But those who belong to the Anointed Jesus have hung their flesh on the pole, along with its passions and desires. 25 So if we’re living by [God’s] Breath, then let’s walk in the Breath…

 

[Bick]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2Thess2v7.

And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2v28.

"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Acts 2v17.

God bless...Ivanm

MY COMMENTS: Looking at chapt.2 of 2 Thes. at the context, Paul is reminding the Church at Thessalonian what he told them in his first letter to them, that we who are alive when Christ calls from the air, will not precede the dead in Christ. You see, they were upset at the false teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, and, if that were true, they should have seen their dead loved ones (believers) raised. But since no resurrection took place they were confused and upset.

So, starting with vs.2:1 Paul perhaps refreshes their memory that both the dead and the living believers would be gathered together to the Lord.

Then he clarifies that the day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy (departure) comes first and the lawless one is revealed. I believe this is the departure of the church/body that will precede the anti-Christ being revealed.

Certainly, the Holy Spirit will be in the church/body when it is called out, but I believe the Holy Spirit will still be on the earth, or where ever God wants him.

 

[Elijah674]

The Holy Spirit is at present being removed as 'i' see it, Look around! But your verses do not apply here, do they?? But yes, the worse that it gets, the sincere will receive the latter rain. See Acts 3:19.

Here is how it is again ENDING.

Gen.6

[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1 Sam. 10

[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
[7] And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
[8] And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.


1 Sam. 16
[13] Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
[14] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Judas in Luke 22
[1] Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
[2] And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
[3] Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
[4] And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
[5] And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.

John 13
[1] Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
[2] And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

And one might question Rev. 17:1-5's Probation being up as Inspiration has them all documented as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH, and in verse 17 we see this??

[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

OK: Whose spirit takes over here? And the Mark of the Beast (Government) follows by FORCE! And it is the spirit of the devil that takes over when the Holy Spirit has been Grieved & Guenched AWAY! Psalms 19:13's Great Transgression! Eph. 4:30 + 1 Thess. 5:19

--Elijah

 

[Sam21]

CF,

For years this was my spiel and what I used as "evidence" for the indwelling of the HS. The problem with that approach was that there are atheists and the non religious who also share these same charactor traits. In other words since these fruits are not exclusive to christians so how can their presence be used as proof that one has the spirit?

As we consider the entire context of the passage in Galatians 5 that talks about the fruit of the spirit, we must recall that what Paul is doing is comparing the "works of the flesh" with the "fruit of the spirit". He is telling the christians to whom he wrote the qualities that should be in them.

The in dwelling Holy Spirit is an absolute must in order to be saved, if you have any doubts then totally commit your life to God and ask Jesus to be your Savior and ask for the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sam21]

MY COMMENTS: Looking at chapt.2 of 2 Thes. at the context, Paul is reminding the Church at Thessalonian what he told them in his first letter to them, that we who are alive when Christ calls from the air, will not precede the dead in Christ. You see, they were upset at the false teaching that the day of the Lord had already come, and, if that were true, they should have seen their dead loved ones (believers) raised. But since no resurrection took place they were confused and upset.

So, starting with vs.2:1 Paul perhaps refreshes their memory that both the dead and the living believers would be gathered together to the Lord.

Then he clarifies that the day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy (departure) comes first and the lawless one is revealed. I believe this is the departure of the church/body that will precede the anti-Christ being revealed.

Certainly, the Holy Spirit will be in the church/body when it is called out, but I believe the Holy Spirit will still be on the earth, or where ever God wants him.

You are in error, there is no evidence in the bible that the Thess thought the day of the Lord had come, the Thess thought the TIME when the day of the Lord(Christ return) could occur and there question to Paul was if they were in that time when Christ could return. Paul was emphatic that Christ could not return to gather the church(day of the Lord) until first the falling away from the faith and the antichrist would be revealed.
Two false teaching used to support a false pre-trib rapture,(one)the Thess thought the Lord had already returned{nonsense}, and (two)that the falling away from the faith is the rapture.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The in dwelling Holy Spirit is an absolute must in order to be saved, if you have any doubts then totally commit your life to God and ask Jesus to be your Savior and ask for the Holy Spirit.

The spirit is the seal that "marks" those who are saints as having an inheritance in the kingdom. That is definately taught in scripture. I also believe that the indwelling of the HS is powerful and evident in those whom the spirit dwells. There is simply no evidence of that type of power being manifested today by christians.

 

[Sam21]

God talked to me at my salvation experience and after I accepted Christ as Savior the Holy Spirit actually talked to me from my lower chest area and was saying over and over,"you are my child and I love you". I have heard the Spirit speak in an audible voice twice and have seen Jesus in the spirit realm once,God even put gas in my car one time. The indwelling Holy Spirit is very real. Remember, the gift of the Holy Spirit was to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Nathan]

The spirit is the seal that "marks" those who are saints as having an inheritance in the kingdom. That is definately taught in scripture. I also believe that the indwelling of the HS is powerful and evident in those whom the spirit dwells. There is simply no evidence of that type of power being manifested today by christians.

You have a point. That power is definitely not being manifested by professing Christians today. I have my reservations with the end of Mark. Some manuscripts have it, some don't. But it does state that there WILL be signs that follow those who believe.

It is also a predominant, undeniable, link to the power of the Spirit and the manifestation of it in the life of the believer in the NT. This is intriguing. I have always summed it up to a lukewarm life. Definitely something to ponder on.