Well, Jesus Christ said it's as hard for a rich person to get to heaven as for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Apostle Paul told Timothy the rich can make it is if they are "ready to distribute" to the poor if they ask for it. If you know of any rich like this let me know and I'll ask them for some help. There's scant few, I know that, including those professing Christianity. And most modern TV evangelists today and most of them are just as stingy as the worldly rich. Jesus Christ said that self denial is a condition for discipleship. You must deny yourself, take up the cross daily, and follow Jesus. John Wesley preached a famous sermon where he said to make all the money we can, but then save all we can by practicing self denial, and then giving all we can to the poor and missions. The modern prosperity gospel usually leaves out the last two points of this sermon (Use of Money). And some evangelists are complaining about Chrislam but how about Christian Zionism? The Bible teaches in 2 Corinthians 6 to come out from unbelievers (including unbelieving Jews) and be separate. Then we will be his sons and daughters. Come out of the lodges. We shoudn't be making oaths. And the rich Jews are also on their way to hell. Read James chapter 5. The book of James is directed to the twelve tribes of the Jews. Jesus Christ told the story of the rich man (a Jew) and Lazarus. Luke chapter 16. Wake up people and repent. We don't have a lot of time!
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Will The Rich (Including Televangelists) Go To Heaven Or Hell?
- Thread starter rwbovee
- Start date
The answer to your question is between that person and God.
The parables you mention are not necessarily aimed at the rich only. Anyone who puts his desire of earthly wealth, possessions, lifestyle, etc. ahead of God is in the same boat whether financially rich or poor.
The parables you mention are not necessarily aimed at the rich only. Anyone who puts his desire of earthly wealth, possessions, lifestyle, etc. ahead of God is in the same boat whether financially rich or poor.
stovebolts
Member
WIP,
I think your spot on.
Abraham was considered extremely rich, and I don't think Jesus was speaking about Abraham ;)
I think your spot on.
Abraham was considered extremely rich, and I don't think Jesus was speaking about Abraham ;)
Drew
Member
I agree that Abraham was rich, but I think we need to be careful about assuming that nothing fundamental changed at the cross.
I suggest that to presume that the same moral codes apply before and after the cross is just that - an assumption. Though many will deny it, the Law of Moses clearly was abolished, at least in some sense, at the cross. I do not see how one can take Paul seriously and deny this.
In any event, I would suggest that some caution is called for when invoking Abraham as an example of a man destined for salvation despite being rich. Abraham had a very specific function to perform, so I do not think things are as simple as they might appear.
Things changed at the cross - the kingdom of God was initiated, along with an entirely new calling. I am at least a little skeptical that God is "OK" with people being rich, this side of the cross.
stovebolts
Member
Drew,
The Covenant with Abraham, as you well know was over 400 years before the Covenant at Mt. Sinai...
We can look to the parables to see how Jesus views the rich. The parable of the talents and the parable of the farmer who built bigger barns, and we can contrast this with the woman who gave her two coins in Luke 21.
When we look at what Jesus has to say about the rich, we find that it's not how much you have, but what you do with it. God deesn't bless us because we're just these super great people that deserve God's blessing... I would argue that we are blessed to be a blessing to those around us. How else can you give, if you have nothing to give?
And while we're talking about being rich, did you know that what the USA spends each year in garbage sacks could feed all the starving people in the world for that same year. So, lets be careful how we measure ourselves because if you live in the USA or even Canada, and I don't care if your on welfare, your considered "Rich" to most of the world.
The Covenant with Abraham, as you well know was over 400 years before the Covenant at Mt. Sinai...
We can look to the parables to see how Jesus views the rich. The parable of the talents and the parable of the farmer who built bigger barns, and we can contrast this with the woman who gave her two coins in Luke 21.
When we look at what Jesus has to say about the rich, we find that it's not how much you have, but what you do with it. God deesn't bless us because we're just these super great people that deserve God's blessing... I would argue that we are blessed to be a blessing to those around us. How else can you give, if you have nothing to give?
And while we're talking about being rich, did you know that what the USA spends each year in garbage sacks could feed all the starving people in the world for that same year. So, lets be careful how we measure ourselves because if you live in the USA or even Canada, and I don't care if your on welfare, your considered "Rich" to most of the world.
I sometimes ponder the different answers to different questions.
The question of, "am I going to heaven" (there was a thread on that) the answer was, "yes, I know I am doing the right thing" which could be "between me and god".
The question here of the rich going to heaven, "They could be", aka "between them and god".
The question of works versus grace "NO! They are NOT going to heaven! It is not between them and god, I can tell from here they don't have the right formula!"
The question of universal salvation, "NO! They are NOT going to heaven! It is not between them and god, I can tell from here they don't have the right formula!"
I ponder sometimes what the real definition is about when we don't know because it between them and god (despite scripture saying they will not) and when we do know they won't go (because of scripture saying they will not).
I have never seen a camel go through the eye of a needle.
handy
Member
Several things here:
First what did Jesus actually say?
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.†When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?†<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-23789"></sup> And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€
This was in response to a rich young man who found that he loved his riches far more than he loved his God. But, what's important to note here is that, while there is danger in the love of money, Jesus ends this on the note that with God, nothing is impossible. This passage cannot be used to say that a rich person can never enter into God's kingdom....just that the rich have a very great danger of letting their money become their god.
Secondly, there are things in which Christians have total freedom and things in which Christians do not have freedom.
We do not have freedom to determine for ourselves whether or not we will be saved. This isn't a matter of "having the right formula". This is in recognition of what the Scriptures tell us about salvation and how we obtain it. Salvation is by grace through faith which is a gift of God. No man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ...and Jesus Himself has stated that not all will be saved.
However, Christians do indeed have freedom in how much of their money they choose to keep and to give. We find this truth reinforced, surprisingly enough, in the rather negative story of Ananias and Sapphira, a couple who sold some property and tried to convince everyone that they were giving the entire amount to the church when in fact they weren't. The Holy Spirit tipped Peter of their lie and Peter said to them: "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control?" The conclusion is clear, the money was theirs to do with as they chose, and what they chose to do was to lie about it.
The New Testament gives us the criteria for giving...that it be done with a cheerful heart. That's about it. There is no minimum nor maximum that a Christian needs to give.
However, we as Christians are also called upon to see to it that those in need who come our way are cared for. How a Christian does this is up to the individual. Some might say..."Let's tax the heck out of corporations and rich individuals and use their money to set up government programs" (which to me seems a bit of a cop out)...others might write generous checks to certain charities...others might volunteer to work in soup kitchens and food banks.
I once knew this one man (he is now passed away) who became extremely wealthy because he developed a much more efficient and humane way to process turkeys in slaughter houses. He patented his little device, revolutionized the turkey processing industry and became a mega-rich man. He lived in a very nice house...he drove a very nice car... he wore very nice clothes. He also lived on about 10% of his earnings and gave about 90% of his earnings to his church and various Christian charities and educational programs. Not because he was trying to buy his way into heaven, but because he had been dirt poor and worked hard to scrape by in a turkey slaughtering plant, and knew how much help those in need, in fact need.
Some might pointed to him and said, "He's rich, there's no way he'll ever get to heaven." They would be wrong.
Christ_empowered
Member
I agree with the previous posters--its not about money per se, its about perspective and focus. If your stuff is your focus, you're going to lose your soul to whatever you possess or manage to get your hands on, and then you're doomed, whether you're a super-wealthy corporate type or a keeping up with the Joneses middle-class type.
Just based on what I've seen, lack of resources and excessive resources can both be detrimental. Maybe not to every individual, but I mean on the group level. I don't think Jesus will say "Well, I've seen your tax returns for the past 20 years--you're way over the cut off for Heaven. Enjoy Hell!," but I can imagine Him saying that focusing on material things--either getting enough of them to survive or getting enough to be powerful and important--stood in the way of someone's salvation.
Just based on what I've seen, lack of resources and excessive resources can both be detrimental. Maybe not to every individual, but I mean on the group level. I don't think Jesus will say "Well, I've seen your tax returns for the past 20 years--you're way over the cut off for Heaven. Enjoy Hell!," but I can imagine Him saying that focusing on material things--either getting enough of them to survive or getting enough to be powerful and important--stood in the way of someone's salvation.
Drew
Member
I actually think the parable of the talents has noting to do with the matter of wealth, and is instead a pointed critique of Israel, and her failure to fulfill her covenant obligation to be a light to the nations. But I agree with the spirit of what I think you are saying, even if I would quibble with your choice of the talents parable to make the case.
This line of thinking can be, and often is, abused to justify holding onto wealth.
The proper application of this notion of "its what you with it that counts" is, I suggest, to say that its great for the Christian to be able to generate a lot wealth that is then put to kingdom use. But it is quite another to says its OK for the Christian to accumulate a lot of wealth, unless, of course, it is then put to use for kingdom efforts.
If I make a million dollars a year and give 90 % of it away, I am doing "more" than if I only give away 10 % and then claim "I need to build up a pile of money to give away". That seems like a rationalization to hang onto the money. Why not put it to kingdom use right away? You do not really need to have accumulated anything to give it away - you can give it away "immediately", if you see what I mean.
I agree.StoveBolts said:
Drew
Member
I am not so sure. You appear to assume that when Jesus says "nothing is impossible with God", He is saying:
"If it were not for the grace of God, a rich person could not remain rich and enter heaven. But, because of the grace of God, a rich person can indeed attain heaven"
But perhaps Jesus really means this:
"If it were not for the grace of God, a rich person could not remain rich and enter heaven. But, because of the grace of God, a rich person can escape from the grip of needing to be wealthy, give his (her) wealth away and thereby attain heaven"
I hope the difference is clear. Now I would be inclined to agree that your interpretation is the correct one if it were not for these words (the bolded ones at the end):
A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?†<SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-25708>19</SUP> And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-25709>20</SUP> You know the commandments, ‘<SUP class=xref value='(Y)'>(Y)</SUP>DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’†<SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-25710>21</SUP> And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.†<SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-25711>22</SUP> When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; <SUP class=xref value='(Z)'>(Z)</SUP>sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have <SUP class=xref value='(AA)'>(AA)</SUP>treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€
How is this not a pretty clear assertion that the rich young man really does need to give away his money.
I think we Christians are very uncomfortable with the demand that this passage confers on us and we come up with some pretty odd exegesis to try to evade the demand.
Drew
Member
Let me qualify what I am saying. I think it is acceptable for a Christian to accumulate enough money to ensure that s/he (and / or dependents) can live at a "modest middle class" level, into retirement and unto death.
As I have suggested, it can take a fair whack of money to do this.
So I am not suggesting a vow of poverty, or anything like that. I am not saying, for example, that its sin for a 65 year old to have, say, a million dollars, precisely because, as I understand it, this is what it would take to live modestly for the rest of your life, if you live into your late 80's and 90's.
Now, I am sure some will question this pariticular figure, but I hope the point is clear.
As I have suggested, it can take a fair whack of money to do this.
So I am not suggesting a vow of poverty, or anything like that. I am not saying, for example, that its sin for a 65 year old to have, say, a million dollars, precisely because, as I understand it, this is what it would take to live modestly for the rest of your life, if you live into your late 80's and 90's.
Now, I am sure some will question this pariticular figure, but I hope the point is clear.
handy
Member
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that the rich young man really did need to give away his money. But...why? Why was this asked of him? Wasn't asked of any of the other disciples that Jesus called.
The issue with the ruler is pinpointed in the next verse that wasn't quoted:
But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
Jesus was calling him to become a disciple...and he rejected the call because his loved his possessions more.
The rich young man's faith was tested...was he seeking eternal life because of his overwhelming love for God?
Isn't it interesting when Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and he asked which ones, Jesus didn't include the first three commandments...only the ones that speak of our interactions with fellow humans? Those were the commandments that he kept. Unspoken was the commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me." That the rich young ruler was not following that particular commandment becomes crystal clear when he chooses to walk away from the Lord.
While I think Jesus' word's are sobering to all who have wealth...certainly a call for them to examine their confession...I think you read too much into the exchange if you are going to say that Jesus automatically expects all with wealth to give it up.
As was pointed out before, pretty much everyone here in the West is "wealthy" compared to the people of Africa or the poor of India...are we to impoverish ourselves in order to be no wealthier than someone in Calcutta or Togo...who is to determine "how much" wealth is "too much"? Are you, Drew, going to allow me to make that determination for you? ;)
Besides this: " a rich person can escape from the grip of needing to be wealthy, give his (her) wealth away and thereby attain heaven"
is clearly "salvation by works"...
1. It is much harder for a person to see the need of Christ is their life is all peaceful. If all you need is money, and you have plenty of that, then you naturally think you have no other need in life. If that person dies, and does not have Christ as their savor, then they go to hell.
2. If you have an extreme love of something, and you have to give it up, it will make you so much less likely to give it up. So say if you have to give up a "Rich, but unclean" Sex life to be a Christian, and you love that sex life enough, you won't give it up easy.
Now not everyone who is rich in life will refuse Christ, but it's much harder to accept him if your life is near, if not perfect.
2. If you have an extreme love of something, and you have to give it up, it will make you so much less likely to give it up. So say if you have to give up a "Rich, but unclean" Sex life to be a Christian, and you love that sex life enough, you won't give it up easy.
Now not everyone who is rich in life will refuse Christ, but it's much harder to accept him if your life is near, if not perfect.
Gazelle
Member
I wonder what happened to the story of Job. Satan, with allowance by GOD, took everything Job had, and then GOD gave it back DOUBLE. The story shows the being rich is not evil in and of itself, and that it's the dedication to God that counts.
I see a different example in David's story. He did so much wrong and against God, and was quite wealthy, yet because he kept repenting and trying harder, God still blessed him. (Yes, God did withhold some blessings because of his sin, but still...) ... a man after God's own heart :heart
And then there's Solomon! Need I say more?
Does the Holy Spirit discern the rich televangelists that are con men? Surely. Does that upset the Holy Spirit as well as us? Absolutely. But it isn't our job to say they will lose heaven.
God promises financial blessings to us if we serve Him with the right faith. Malachi 3:10 follows that vein.
What about the parable of the talents... and the one who was honored was the one who invested and made the most money! :D
I see a different example in David's story. He did so much wrong and against God, and was quite wealthy, yet because he kept repenting and trying harder, God still blessed him. (Yes, God did withhold some blessings because of his sin, but still...) ... a man after God's own heart :heart
And then there's Solomon! Need I say more?
Does the Holy Spirit discern the rich televangelists that are con men? Surely. Does that upset the Holy Spirit as well as us? Absolutely. But it isn't our job to say they will lose heaven.
God promises financial blessings to us if we serve Him with the right faith. Malachi 3:10 follows that vein.
What about the parable of the talents... and the one who was honored was the one who invested and made the most money! :D
handy said:
I could be wrong but I always took it not as to impoverish yourself in order to be no wealthier, but rather to impoverish yourself to do all you can to alleviate suffering. If you can alleviate suffering without impoverishing yourself, hooray. But if you can do more to alleviate suffering and you choose not to... that was what I always assumed the line to be.
But, as I say, I merely ponder this as I see it played out, since it does not mean salvation (or not) to me.
Drew
Member
Exactly.
Despite what most will claim here - the Scriptures do indeed teach that you need good works to be saved:
<SUP>6</SUP> God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-27970>7</SUP> To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
I have posted this text many, many times. And no one has yet come up with a satisfactory explanation as to how it does not mean exactly what it says - good works are indeed the "metric", measure, by which final salvation will be granted.
When Paul denies "salvation (or justification) by works", he is, demonstrably in each case, denying salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses. Paul is not denying the central role of good works in final salvation - he is denying that salvation is limited to Jews.
This analysis is not my invention - this exegesis comes from the pen of respected Biblical scholar NT Wright. And, yes, he asserts that post-reformation protestantism has made a major blunder in this respect.
I will address your analysis of the "rich young ruler" passage shortly.