Wine...fermented or UNfermented?

[ttg]

This thread is to discuss whether or not the wine of Jesus' time was or was not fermented.

 

[ttg]

Grape juice was not invented until 1869 by Thomas Welch.

The Jews drink wine in their homes and religous ceremonies and have always done so. Can a grape-juice onliest tell me when the Jews converted from the yet to be invented grape juice to wine?

 

[thessalonian]

Well let's see. It was a desert climate, hot. No refrigerators. I don't know that grapes are produced 365 days a year and so if they were to drink the juice year round I kinda think it's gonna have a little kick to it :smt030 after a bit. :-D Maybe they just held weddings in the fall, but I don't think so.

 

[Vic C.]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that slightly fermented wine was much safer than their so-called potable water. :

Like my grandfather always said, "everything in moderation". Unfortunately we live in a society that doesn't like moderation. But even the Bible points out the differences between indulging and overindulging.

no ttg, I am not changing my SBC stand against drinking, lol :

 

[ttg]

I saw a show on The History Channel a few months ago, and they talked about how people in England drank beer because they didn't trust the water. They drank it with every meal, drank it at work, and basically everybody walked around with a buzz during the medieval ages.

 

[Poke]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that slightly fermented wine was much safer than their so-called potable water. :

You don't think they had an abundant supply of chlorinated tap water or bottled water produced with reverse osmosis?

 

[Vic C.]

:smt005

You forgot flouride...

 

[stovebolts]

Since you said "Grape Juice Onliest", I'm assuming that your talking about the Lords Supper?

I'm sure that it was fermented considering the culture. Nothing wrong with a bit of wine to be honest. (1 Timothy 5:23, 1 Timothy 3:8, Titus 2:3 ) But in the realm of the Lords Supper, I believe it states, "fruit of the vine". (Lk 22:18)

Fermented "fruit of the vine" (wine) seems acceptable to me as well as just straight grape juice :

 

[ZeroTX]

Where did all those guys who say that the word "wine" in the Bible refers to unfermented grape juice?...

Forget about fermenting, grape juice would just go rotten without today's preservatives and/or canning/bottling methods if it wasn't fermented into a wine. What were the wedding guests drinking? The good "grape juice" or the good WINE?...

Nobody is proposing that the Bible teaches that we all go get drunk. It teaches just the opposite. But those who somehow believe that Christ never let alcoholic drinks touch his lips are wrong.

I was taught when growing up (Baptist), that any kind of drinking was pretty much the root of all evil. It's only as an adult that I began to wonder what is so wrong with a beer or two now and then or a glass or two of wine if one does not become a drunkard?... Drunkenness is to alcohol as gluttony is to a box of twinkies. Both are prohibited in the Bible, but you certainly wouldn't say that eating just ONE twinkie is gluttony, would you? Same applies.

-Michael

 

[jculp123180]

Wine

Sure, grape juice as we have it today wasn't invented until later, but neither was wine as we have it today. A simple google search on distillation will show you that it came later with the muslims. The wine that Jesus drank had less alcohol in it than 3.2 beer. Most places say 2-3%

 

[jculp123180]

wine

This is from John MacArthur:

Question #1: Is drinking wine today the same as in Bible times?

Christians who drink point out that wine was commended in the Bible and assume it is therefore acceptable today. If drinking in biblical times is to be used as the basis for drinking today, the wine today should be the same as the wine used then. This deserves careful analysis.

A. The Biblical Words for Wine

1. Oinos/Yayin

The most common word in the New Testament for wine is the Greek word oinos. It is a general word that simply refers to the fermented juice of the grape. The Old Testament equivalent to the Greek word oinos is yayin, the root of which means to "bubble up" or "boil up." The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia (vol. 12, p. 533) states that yayin, at least in the rabbinic period, was diluted with water.

2. Gleukos/Tirosh

The Greek word gleukos--from which we get the English word glucose, means "new wine." It is used in Acts 2:13 to refer to the apostles on the day of Pentecost. It says they were "full of new wine." Although it was comparatively fresh and not yet fully aged, it was potentially intoxicating. The mockers in in Acts 2:13 were accusing the apostles of being drunk.

The Old Testament word for new wine is tirosh. Hosea 4:11 says "wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away the heart." Drunkenness is the result of drinking this new wine.

3. Sikera/Shakar

The Old Testament word for strong drink is shakar, a term that eventually became restricted to intoxicants other than wine. According to the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia, it refers to unmixed wine. The New Testament equivalent is the Greek word sikera.

B. The Historical Data Regarding Wine

1. Unfermented wine

Because of refrigeration problems in ancient times, wine was often boiled until the liquid evaporated, leaving behind a thick, unintoxicating paste that stored well. It was somewhat similar to modern grape jelly. The people would spread it on bread like a jam, and some still do today in the Middle East.

a) Pliny the Elder--This Roman historian in his Natural Histories said such wine could last as long as ten years. He wrote of wine that had the consistency of honey.

b) Horace--This Latin poet wrote in his Odes of unintoxicating wine, that he recommended quaffing under the shade (I:18).

c) Plutarch--This Greek essayist wrote in his Moralia that filtered wine neither inflames the brain nor infects the mind and the passions, and is much more pleasant to drink. He liked the kind of wine with no alcoholic content.

d) Aristotle--This Greek philosopher spoke of wine that was so thick, it was necessary to scrape it from the skins it was stored in and to dissolve the scrapings in water."

e) Virgil--This Latin writer spoke of the necessity of boiling down wine.

f) Homer--The celebrated bard, in the ninth book of The Odyssey tells of Ulysses, who took with him in his visit to the Cyclops a goatskin of sweet, black wine that needed to be diluted with twenty parts of water before being consumed as a beverage.

g) Columella--This Latin agronomist, a contemporary of the apostles, wrote that it was common in Italy and Greece to boil wine. That would not have been done if they had wanted to preserve the alcoholic content.

h) Archbishop Potter--Archbishop Potter, born in 1674, wrote in his Grecian Antiquities wrote to boil down their wines and then drink them four years later (Edinburg, 1813, vol. 2, p. 360). He also refers to Democritus, a celebrated philosopher, and Palladius, a Greek physician, as making similar statements concerning wine at that time. These ancient authorities referred to the boiled juice of the grape as wine.

i) Professor Donovan--Donovan in his Bible Commentary said, "In order to preserve their wines ... the Romans concentrated the must or grape juice, of which they were made, by evaporation, either spontaneous in the air or over a fire, so as to render them thick and syrupy" (p. 295).

j) The Talmud--The Talmud, the codification of Jewish law, mentions repeatedly that the Jews were in the habit of using boiled wine (e.g., 'Erabin 29a).

k) W. G. Brown--Brown, who traveled extensively in Africa, Egypt, and Asia from 1792 to 1798 said that the wines of Syria are mostly prepared by boiling immediately after they are pressed from the grape until they are considerably reduced in quantity, when they are then put into bottles and preserved for use.

l) Caspar Neumann--Dr. Neumann, Professor of Chemistry in Berlin, 1795, said, "It is observable that when sweet juices are boiled down to a thick consistency, they not only do not ferment in that state, but are not easily brought into fermentation when diluted with as much water as they had lost in the evaporation, or even with the very individual water that exhaled from them" (Nott, London edition, p. 81). The wine evidently lost much of its intoxicating properties after being reconstituted.

m) Dr. A. Russell--Russell, in his Natural History of Aleppo (London: G.G. and J. Robinson, 1794), said that the concentrated wine juice, called "dibbs," was brought to the city in skins and sold in the public markets. He said it had the appearance of a coarse honey.

The wine that was consumed in biblical times was not what we know as wine today. It was more of a concentrated grape juice with its intoxicating properties basically removed. You cannot defend wine-drinking today on the basis of wine-drinking in Bible times because the two are totally different.

2. Fermented wine

a) The procedure

Wine stored as a liquid, however, would ferment. Professor Robert Stein, in his "Wine-drinking in New Testament Times" (Christianity Today, 20 June 1975: 9-11), tells us liquid wine was stored in large jugs called amphorae. The pure, unmixed wine would be drawn out of these jugs and poured into large bowls called kraters, where it was mixed with water. From these kraters, it would then be poured into kylix, or cups. Wine would never be served directly from the amphora without first being mixed. And according to other historical data on this period, the mixture could be as high as a 20:1 ratio or lower than 1:1.

b) The perception

Drinking unmixed wine was looked upon by Greek culture as barbaric. Stein quotes Mnesitheus of Athens as saying, "The gods have revealed wine to mortals, to be the greatest blessing for those who use it aright, but for those who use it without measure, the reverse. For it gives food to them that take it and strength in mind and body. In medicine it is most beneficial; it can be mixed with liquid and drugs and it brings aid to the wounded. In daily intercourse, to those who mix and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence. Mix it half and half, and you get madness; unmixed, bodily collapse."

As a beverage, wine was always thought of as a mixed drink in Greek culture. The ratio of water might have varied but only barbarians drank it unmixed. Stein cites patristic writings that show the early church served mixed wine.

c) The present

Beer has approximately 4% alcohol, wine 9-11%, brandy 15- 20%, and hard liquor 40-50% (80-100 proof). So, unmixed wine in biblical times measured at approximately 9-11%. Mixed wine, at a 3:1 ratio, would therefore be between 2.25- to-2.75%. By today's standards, a drink has to exceed 3.2% to be considered an alcoholic beverage. The wine they consumed was either completely non-alcoholic or sub- alcoholic by today's standards. To become drunk with wine in those days you would have to drink all day. That is why the Bible commands elders in the church not to be addicted to much wine (1 Tim. 3:3). With such a low alcoholic content, you would have to purpose to become drunk.

So, is drinking wine today the same as in Bible times? No.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1937.htm

 

[thessalonian]

jculp,

So does the Bible tell us what percentage of alcohol is acceptable? If the wine of today isn't the same (making wine is of course much more sophisticated) then the Bible must give exact prescribed instructions on how to make it so that it's not sinful to drink, so we don't make a mistake. I don't care what Vigil, the Greeks, the Romans, etc. say. If the bible is the sole rule as McArthor takes it to be it must have specific instructions. Otherwise McArthor is simply looking for historical evidence to back his view. Likely ignoring much other evidence. Further the logic that they used a certain type of wine does not condemn what we call wine today. As I see it the Bible only condemns drunkenness and it is easy to see why.

If why was not alcoholic and intoxicating and the Apostles, per Jesus example did not partake of intoxicating wine then why would the Jews have accused them of drunkenness on pentecost?

 

[Poke]

Re: wine

John MacArthur is a liar for inviting people to believe that Jesus didn't drink alcohol or that he made non-alcoholic wine for the wedding feast.

It is indisputable that the wine in the Bible was very capable of producing drunkenness. It is indisputable that Jesus offended the Pharisees with his alcohol consumption. People who didn't want to drink alcohol in the Bible avoided wine.

 

[thessalonian]

I do think it sad that someone calling himself a biblical scholar would write something that is so obviously biased toward his pre-concieved notions on drinking.

 

[Steve]

Fermented.

Grape Juice in the Communion service was begun in the nineteenth century compliments of the Temperance Movement. Before that, all churches used wine in a single chalice(cup).

The teetotallers miracle: changing wine into water.

 

[jculp123180]

Wine

All I'm saying is that if you want to use the Biblical example of wine drinking, you have to understand the Biblical example of wine drinking. It was fermented for sure, not just grape juice, but it was nowhere near what we get at the liquor store today. I don't think there's anything wrong with drinking alcohol in and of itself, a lot of cultures still drink wine because their water would make them sick just as Jesus and the first century Romans did. I don't drink anything with alcohol in it myself for the simple fact that I don't want to cause a brother in Christ to stumble. In America people don't generally drink a beer or a glass of wine, the great majority of Americans who drink alcohol at all do it for the sake of getting drunk, face it. If I were to practice my liberty to drink a beer and someone who has had a drinking problem sees me and decides it's okay, I don't want to be responsible for that. In addition, even though people say there's nothing wrong with it, when an ubeliever sees a Christian drinking they'll have less respect for his faith. Argue till you're blue in the face, I've experienced this numerous times since I was saved five years ago and I have decided to quit.

 

[Poke]

Re: Wine

It was fermented for sure, not just grape juice, but it was nowhere near what we get at the liquor store today.

Wine ferments to the point that the alcohol content killed the yeast. Their wine, except when new or deluted, would have been much stronger than our beer and probably similiar to our wine.

What's the point of claiming that wine then wasn't as strong as wine now? Are you trying to leave the door open to the possibility that the wine wasn't significantly intoxicating. If so, you're only fooling yourself.

a lot of cultures still drink wine because their water would make them sick just as Jesus and the first century Romans did. I don't drink anything with alcohol in it myself for the simple fact that I don't want to cause a brother in Christ to stumble.

The pharisees avoided wine and criticized Jesus for drinking. Claiming not to want a brother to stumble is a popular rationalization among anti-drinking, right-wing Christians who concede that Jesus drank.

The Bible says in the Psalms that God made wine for us to enjoy. Jesus made wine for a wedding celebration. Why wasn't Jesus worried about causing others to stumble?

In America people don't generally drink a beer or a glass of wine, the great majority of Americans who drink alcohol at all do it for the sake of getting drunk, face it.

Drinking to get drunk is mostly limited to teens and college-age drinkers. And, even that is a result of living in an anti-drinking culture. They weren't taught to drink with discipline and they see drinking as a form of rebellion and liberation. Then there's the general hedonism of a post-Christian culture because so many right-wing so-called Christians are busy pushing for war, and condemning drinking and various holidays rather than advancing the Kingdom of God.

If I were to practice my liberty to drink a beer and someone who has had a drinking problem sees me and decides it's okay, I don't want to be responsible for that.

No one with a drinking problem is going to think it's okay just because he sees you drink. And, if he did, it wouldn't be your fault, any more that a person with an eating problem seeing you eat french fries thinking it's then okay for him to eat french fries.

In addition, even though people say there's nothing wrong with it, when an ubeliever sees a Christian drinking they'll have less respect for his faith.

All anti-drinking Christians do is teach non-Christians that Christians are hypocrites. Some Christians drink and the Bible teaches that drinking is okay. Even the anti-drinking Christians commonly abuse substances, like food and prescription medicine, for mood altering reasons.

 

[ttg]

Some anti-wine people say the kind of wine that was approved is the kind that doesn't intoxicate. But the Greek word for wine, oinos, used in the "don't get drunk on it" verses, is the same word used in the "it's okay to drink it in moderation" verses. Besides, all true wine has alcohol and can intoxicate; "wine" without alcohol isn't wine at all.

Corinthians 11:20-21: "When you meet in one place, then, it is not for eating the Lord's Supper, for in eating, each one goes ahead with his own supper, and one goes hungry while another gets drunk." Since grape juice has no intoxicating effects, what does Paul refer to? How can one get drunk on grape juice?

The Bible refers of the goodness of wine when used correctly: "You may then exchange the money for whatever you desire, oxen or sheep, wine or strong drink, or anything else you would enjoy, and there before the Lord your God, you shall partake of it and make merry with your family" (Deut. 14:26). Other pro-wine-drinking verses are Genesis 14:18; Eccle-siasticus 10:19; Sirach 31:12-31; Psalm 104:15; and 1 Timothy 5:23.

 

[jculp123180]

Re: Wine

It was fermented for sure, not just grape juice, but it was nowhere near what we get at the liquor store today.

Wine ferments to the point that the alcohol content killed the yeast. Their wine, except when new or deluted, would have been much stronger than our beer and probably similiar to our wine.

What's the point of claiming that wine then wasn't as strong as wine now? Are you trying to leave the door open to the possibility that the wine wasn't significantly intoxicating. If so, you're only fooling yourself.

Then why would Peter use the fact that it's early in the day to explain that the believers weren't drunk at pentecost?

[quote:38a88]a lot of cultures still drink wine because their water would make them sick just as Jesus and the first century Romans did. I don't drink anything with alcohol in it myself for the simple fact that I don't want to cause a brother in Christ to stumble.

The pharisees avoided wine and criticized Jesus for drinking. Claiming not to want a brother to stumble is a popular rationalization among anti-drinking, right-wing Christians who concede that Jesus drank.

The Bible says in the Psalms that God made wine for us to enjoy. Jesus made wine for a wedding celebration. Why wasn't Jesus worried about causing others to stumble?

[/quote:38a88]

Again, You have to understand the culture in which things were written and how it differs from our own. Why would God's word say not to get drunk with wine and then Jesus turn around and do that very thing?

[quote:38a88] In America people don't generally drink a beer or a glass of wine, the great majority of Americans who drink alcohol at all do it for the sake of getting drunk, face it.

Drinking to get drunk is mostly limited to teens and college-age drinkers. And, even that is a result of living in an anti-drinking culture. They weren't taught to drink with discipline and they see drinking as a form of rebellion and liberation.
[/quote:38a88]

As someone who works in law enforcement, I have to call BS on this one.

Then there's the general hedonism of a post-Christian culture because so many right-wing so-called Christians are busy pushing for war, and condemning drinking and various holidays rather than advancing the Kingdom of God.

Sure, since two things can't be done at the same time. Let's just let our society go all to hell because a few people try and use an excuse like this to not feel obligated. What did Jesus mean by Salt and Light?

[quote:38a88]If I were to practice my liberty to drink a beer and someone who has had a drinking problem sees me and decides it's okay, I don't want to be responsible for that.

No one with a drinking problem is going to think it's okay just because he sees you drink. And, if he did, it wouldn't be your fault, any more that a person with an eating problem seeing you eat french fries thinking it's then okay for him to eat french fries.[/quote:38a88]

Sorry, I expected you'd know a little more scripture. When Paul talked about eating/not eating meat sacrificed to idols was he just talking specifically about meat or was he teaching a principle?

[quote:38a88]In addition, even though people say there's nothing wrong with it, when an ubeliever sees a Christian drinking they'll have less respect for his faith.

All anti-drinking Christians do is teach non-Christians that Christians are hypocrites. Some Christians drink and the Bible teaches that drinking is okay. Even the anti-drinking Christians commonly abuse substances, like food and prescription medicine, for mood altering reasons.[/quote:38a88]

Smokescreen. Just because some people do it doesn't make it right. I still haven't seen where the Bible says it's alright to drink (Biblical principle applied to 2000 years of cultural evolution says exactly the opposite).

 

[Poke]

Re: Wine

Then why would Peter use the fact that it's early in the day to explain that the believers weren't drunk at pentecost?

People don't usually drink heavily in the morning. It's not that in the morning, wine miraculously has a lower alcohol content, or whatever it is that you're suggesting.

Again, You have to understand the culture in which things were written and how it differs from our own. Why would God's word say not to get drunk with wine and then Jesus turn around and do that very thing?

If you met Jesus, you'd call him a drunk. Not me. The pharisees called Jesus a drunk. You and the pharisees refuse to recognize that wine is a gift from God that a person can enjoy without being a drunk.

As someone who works in law enforcement, I have to call oopsie on this one.

Yeah, like your daily experience is representative of society as a whole.

Sure, since two things can't be done at the same time. Let's just let our society go all to hell because a few people try and use an excuse like this to not feel obligated. What did Jesus mean by Salt and Light?

You are helping send society to Hell by fighting things that are right, at the expense of fighting things that are wrong. Zionist are the modern day pharisees.

Sorry, I expected you'd know a little more scripture. When Paul talked about eating/not eating meat sacrificed to idols was he just talking specifically about meat or was he teaching a principle?

Paul was talking about religious matters when he was talking about meat sacrificed to idols. But, neither Paul or Jesus avoided drinking out of rationalization that they'd cause people to stumble. That would be the pharisees.

Smokescreen. Just because some people do it doesn't make it right. I still haven't seen where the Bible says it's alright to drink (Biblical principle applied to 2000 years of cultural evolution says exactly the opposite).

You're the one who brought up the issue of respect. I'm only pointing out that you are not teaching people to respect Christians. You're only teaching people that Christians are hypocrites. That's not a smokescreen but a direct rebuttal to your argument.