witchcraft

[Alabaster]

There are those who say that "The Holy Spirit" would be the feminine aspect of the Godhead. Some manuscripts use the name "Sophia". This is what I've gained from discussions with him and his wife.

There is even a Coven of Christ Ministries and they can be found on the internet (their webpage).

As far as "basing your foundation on ALL of it", we all agree that no longer do we stone to death unruly sons, . . . that we wear clothing with more than one material fabric, . . . . no longer eat kosher-ly, . . .etc (many laws in Leviticus and Numbers). I find it intersting that we can agree with not stoning adulterers to death and killing witches, yet it was given as a commandment. Isn't that part of the "all of it"?

The Holy Spirit is referred to as "He" and "Him", so the notion of a feminine characterization is null and void.

Sophia has nothing to do with Christianity.

Side issues trip people up constantly!

Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing;
Therefore get wisdom.
And in all your getting, get understanding.

 

[Orion]

Of course a patriarchical culture isn't going to have anything of the feminine over them so any diety is, by defult, going to be male.

Where do you suppose the feminine aspect of humanity comes from? :-?

And what about this issue:

As far as "basing your foundation on ALL of it", we all agree that no longer do we stone to death unruly sons, . . . that we wear clothing with more than one material fabric, . . . . no longer eat kosher-ly, . . .etc (many laws in Leviticus and Numbers). I find it intersting that we can agree with not stoning adulterers to death and killing witches, yet it was given as a commandment. Isn't that part of the "all of it"?

 

[Rick W]

I've heard on more than one occation that the "witchcraft" mentioned in the Bible isn't the same as what you find in today's society. The first step would be to DEFINE what the "witchcraft" mentioned in the Bible is actually refering to.

That's the first step to liberalizing scripture... redefining terms to fit the social standard we want endorsed.

 

[guibox]

As far as "basing your foundation on ALL of it", we all agree that no longer do we stone to death unruly sons, . . . that we wear clothing with more than one material fabric, . . . . no longer eat kosher-ly, . . .etc (many laws in Leviticus and Numbers). I find it intersting that we can agree with not stoning adulterers to death and killing witches, yet it was given as a commandment. Isn't that part of the "all of it"?

Come on, Orion, you know what I mean.

Wicca is at it's foundation the worship of nature and a pantheistic philosophy. It's very core is not the Christianity of the Bible. There is no 'goddess' period. I don't care if you stretch the scriptures enough to make 'him' become 'Susie' Lucifer's lesser known sister.

The core foundation of the Bible, who Christ is, the moral commandments which identify God and the moral code we live by, the Trinity and man's sinful fall and redemption through the blood and grace of Christ is our standard by which all philosophies are judged by.

Does your brother believe that salvation through Christ, by confession of our sins to the Son, having His blood cover our sins is the only way to heaven? That our good works mean nothing if we are not in Christ and don't have His justifying robes of righteousness covering our sinfulness?

If not, he can claim that he 'prays to the Christian God' all he wants. It doesn't make it so.

Again, this is what I mean by 'all or nothing'.

 

[Rick W]

Again, this is what I mean by 'all or nothing'.

Agreed

There will be no pagan ideologies, rites, practices of sorcery or any part of pagan religion/s before your God. You are to be washed clean, unblemished, and made pure for to be His chosen people. You are to be separated from the world.
Witchcraft is of the world. What has the world to do with God? The world rebels against Him. How can worldly ideals be joined with the purpose of God in any spiritual enterprise or relationship? God wants your body, your heart, your mind and your soul unto eternal life with Him. The world wants your body, your heart, your mind and your soul only for itself. In the end one offers eternal rest and peace with the Father of Creation in paradise. The other offers nothing but death.

 

[Orion]

I've heard that some christian concepts were originally pagan ideologies. I'll have to get back to you about that, though, because I would have to find that source.

 

[Rick W]

I've heard that some christian concepts were originally pagan ideologies. I'll have to get back to you about that, though, because I would have to find that source.

Were these ideologies intended toward the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? Did they recognise God as the one and only true God?

Pagans worshipped other gods. They sacrificed to other gods. Their religion/s was their culture based on other gods. In the Old Testament God would have Israel concerned with none of them for interaction would contaminate God's Chosen with those other gods. The pagans performed human sacrifice, they made children walk through fire, they cut themselves for the blood in rituals and did those things detestable to God... honoring, praising, and praying to other gods.

Witchcraft/sorcery has no part in Christianity. The casting of spells, calling on other spirits, ouija boards, tarot cards, palming reading and astrology all have no place in the life of a Christian.


Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Micah 3:6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

Micah 5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:


There is no compromise but only repentance.

 

[Orion]

I will try to ask my brother and his wife more about this and get back with you tomorrow.

Just for the record, though, MOST Pagans don't worship any diety, but rather they acknowledge them. . . . they also don't (of course) sacrifice anything to them.

 

[Rick W]

Just for the record, though, MOST Pagans don't worship any diety, but rather they acknowledge them.

God acknowledges none of them. Not one. None in the past, none in the present and none in the future.



Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.


Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.



So pagans know more than God by acknowledging other Gods? Therein lies the rebellion against God making God a liar.

 

[Orion]

I think we can (or should) all agree that the terms "God" or "Lord" are man made terms used to describe a powerful being above himself. However, there are other beings of power, namely angels. They may not be to the level of what WE call "a god", but they are supernatural still. Let's say that there ARE other beings, within the supernatural realm, similar to angels, . . . though not in the "classification of a god". What might their names be? Who knows, . . . but it is obvious that some angels have specific names. I expect the others do as well.

So, I would say again, . . . not that they worship them, but they acknowledge their presence.

Let me ask you this, . . . . If I happened to know who MY specific gardian angel was, by name, would there be harm in me thanking him/her for the "service" provided?

 

[Alabaster]

Just for the record, though, MOST Pagans don't worship any diety, but rather they acknowledge them.

God acknowledges none of them. Not one. None in the past, none in the present and none in the future.



Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.


Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.



So pagans know more than God by acknowledging other Gods? Therein lies the rebellion against God making God a liar.

 

[Rick W]

I think we can (or should) all agree that the terms "God" or "Lord" are man made terms used to describe a powerful being above himself. However, there are other beings of power, namely angels. They may not be to the level of what WE call "a god", but they are supernatural still. Let's say that there ARE other beings, within the supernatural realm, similar to angels, . . . though not in the "classification of a god". What might their names be? Who knows, . . . but it is obvious that some angels have specific names. I expect the others do as well.

So, I would say again, . . . not that they worship them, but they acknowledge their presence.

Let me ask you this, . . . . If I happened to know who MY specific gardian angel was, by name, would there be harm in me thanking him/her for the "service" provided?

There is no compromise for witchcraft Orion. God is very adament that there shall be no withcraft, sorcery or magic practiced among His people. There are no exceptions except those in the prideful minds of men.

I've said my peace.

 

[Orion]

Can we discuss, then agree upon what "witchcraft" means then, biblically? I know for a fact neither my brother, nor his wife, engage in "sorcery" or "magic". . . . :-?

What about my question concerning my gardian angel?

 

[Alabaster]

Let me ask you this, . . . . If I happened to know who MY specific gardian angel was, by name, would there be harm in me thanking him/her for the "service" provided?

Yes, there is harm in it. First of all, the angels are there to minister. They obey God. we thank HIM alone. Secondly, an angel will not take adoration or worship or praise or gratitude from us. He recoils at the very idea! (That is, if what you are dealing with is indeed a messenger of God and not a demon of Satan.)

All those things belong to God. The best way to cause God to withdraw is to address His messengers with adoration. That is idolization---a sin! We have to be careful.

 

[Rick W]

I work with Angels and other gods and goddesses

BINGO

Just for the record, though, MOST Pagans don't worship any diety, but rather they acknowledge them.

God acknowledges none of them. Not one. None in the past, none in the present and none in the future.



Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.


Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.



So pagans know more than God by acknowledging other Gods? Therein lies the rebellion against God making God a liar.

 

[Devekut]

Orion,

From a Catholic perspective, its quite within the framwork of our tradition to consider that we might have a "guardian angel", though I believe this to be popular belief (not so much even now) rather than any official doctrinal mention.

This guardian angel would, of course, be doing the bidding of God. Catholics pray to the Saints all the time that they might intercede on behalf of us before God's throne. This includes angels as well, whom we see offer up the prayers of the faithful on earth in heaven before God's throne(Revelation 8). Thus, even biblically speaking, the angels are taking some prayers to God for us. Is it ridiculous to think then, that a "guardian" angel might be accompanying us in our prayer life?

Magic comes into play when one starts manipulating heavenly or supernatural powers to acquire a desirable outcome in your life, or even command or instigate an answer from God regarding a problem. God is not "psychic Sue", this applies to angels as well. God leaves us in degrees of uncertainty for a reason.

If we are trying to use mediums to "get in contact" with these angels, I would be suspicious. Tarot cards and the like are contrary to the faith because they are set up to "command" an answer from supernatural beings. It is one thing for God to send me a sign of his own accord in something mundane, like when I'm doing my laundary. It's another to use rituals and set up materials that demand an answer from him.

Thus, if I were to pray "Lord, am I going to die of cancer? If not, knock this glass of water off the table", I would be attempting divination rather than prayer.

God's plan can not, nor should it be, deduced or interpreted through things specifically set up with that task in mind. It presumes a sense of control on our part and is contrary to the command that we "not put the Lord to the test". If God wants to give us an answer to a question that we have brought to him in prayer, he will find a way and it will not be our way.

As for other gods, there is but God alone. There are no secondary deities.

 

[Orion]

Who said anything about "mediums"? :-?

You said, "Magic comes into play when one starts manipulating heavenly or supernatural powers to acquire a desirable outcome in your life, or even command or instigate an answer from God regarding a problem." Isn't this what a person does when they pray? They are attempting to manipulate heaven/spiritual powers towards a desirable outcome in their life.

I think that we get too caught up in semantics and "words". "Prayer" may not be much different than what my brother would call "performing magic".

Same with the word "God" or "gods". These are man made words used to describe being/deities that are beyond us. Of course, there would be but ONE God of the Bible.

 

[Devekut]

No, prayer does not fit my definition of magic stated here:

Magic comes into play when one starts manipulating heavenly or supernatural powers to acquire a desirable outcome in your life, or even command or instigate an answer from God regarding a problem.

Prayer always embodies that attitude of the Virgin Mary and the suffering Lord in Gethsemane:

Ecce ancilla Domini. Fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum!

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word." (Luke 1:47)

"And kneeling down, he prayed. Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him." Luke 22:41

Here, in his sufferings, Christ truly shows us the meaning of prayer.

 

[Biblereader]

Who said anything about "mediums"? :-?

You said, "Magic comes into play when one starts manipulating heavenly or supernatural powers to acquire a desirable outcome in your life, or even command or instigate an answer from God regarding a problem." Isn't this what a person does when they pray? They are attempting to manipulate heaven/spiritual powers towards a desirable outcome in their life.

I think that we get too caught up in semantics and "words". "Prayer" may not be much different than what my brother would call "performing magic".

Same with the word "God" or "gods". These are man made words used to describe being/deities that are beyond us. Of course, there would be but ONE God of the Bible.

Are you born again?

 

[Biblereader]

Are we really sure God expects all this praise? It makes me wonder about the character of a being who requires our 100% praise. :-?

Actually, I've read more of the Bible since I became a witch than when I was a confessed born again Christian.

[/quote]


Oh, sorry, I had not read your confession. Yes, this validates my feelings about you, and many others who are in here.

You are not Christians.