Hi! I’m sure there are other threads similar to this but if God loves everyone equally, why does he put men in higher authority than women? Why can’t women teach the congregation? There are so many women authorities in the Bible, but Peter I think or Paul says that no woman can be put in a place in control of a man. I understand that he made man first, but why does that seem to make them more worthy of leadership?
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Dorothy Mae
Member
I am a woman and so feel
pretty free to speak about this.
First, I’m not at all convinced that being an appointed leader makes one more worthy. When I look at the leadership in the church we attend, I tend to see people (male and female) more proud and full of their own importance than non-leaders. I also see people less open to input. Same reason. Sorry to say but I suspect pride is a greater struggle for leaders for obvious reasons. The admiration of man can become a desired and heady experience. Gets them more easily.
Second, I see these people as quite seldom being given insight as to matters of God than other people looking at what they say. This is understandable as God is directly opposed to the proud. So the leaders I observe do not have desirable positions.
At least desirable from my viewpoint. If a person wants the praise of man, of course then that’s a desirable position. If one wants the praise of God, then that is not a desirable position as there are just temptations that scuttle pleasing God.
So I’m glad to be in the background or among the lesser people in the christian community. I wouldn’t want my heart to taste the praise of man and be drawn away. (I suspect some here might say, “no fear of that Dorothy Mae!”)
pretty free to speak about this.
First, I’m not at all convinced that being an appointed leader makes one more worthy. When I look at the leadership in the church we attend, I tend to see people (male and female) more proud and full of their own importance than non-leaders. I also see people less open to input. Same reason. Sorry to say but I suspect pride is a greater struggle for leaders for obvious reasons. The admiration of man can become a desired and heady experience. Gets them more easily.
Second, I see these people as quite seldom being given insight as to matters of God than other people looking at what they say. This is understandable as God is directly opposed to the proud. So the leaders I observe do not have desirable positions.
At least desirable from my viewpoint. If a person wants the praise of man, of course then that’s a desirable position. If one wants the praise of God, then that is not a desirable position as there are just temptations that scuttle pleasing God.
So I’m glad to be in the background or among the lesser people in the christian community. I wouldn’t want my heart to taste the praise of man and be drawn away. (I suspect some here might say, “no fear of that Dorothy Mae!”)
And why does He put Jesus in higher authority than men?
Are you equalizing authority with worth?
I think motivation plays an important role here. What is the motivation for taking a position of leadership within the church, or anywhere for that matter? Is it for the praise of men or is it to serve? I have always believed and said, "The mark of a great leader is that he/she will not require/command his/her followers to go anywhere he/she is not willing to go." Jesus gave a couple perfect examples.
42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.
44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:42-45 NKJV
2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,
4 rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself.
5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.
6 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?”
7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you?
13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
John 13:2-7, 12-17 NKJV
Dorothy Mae
Member
Going to move this over to the Theology Forum for a better fit for discussions
You were the one I quoted saying, "First, I’m not at all convinced that being an appointed leader makes one more worthy." I missed the part in the OP where it was brought up. Sorry.
I was wondering why you started this discussion in the Talk With The Staff forum. That particular forum is usually used for reporting site issues or discussing moderator actions. I see for_his_glory has now moved it to the Theology forum.
Northman
Member
It's a curse. You can see it in Genesis 3:16. God lays out curses every once in a while. Why He does them is His business. The humans that come along and try and work against those curses, even if they have what they think are good intentions, are the bane of us all and far too many lives get lost on these "causes".
Probably the two biggest lies in the western theatre are the concepts that the curse on women and the curse of Babel can somehow be worked against and God will somehow alleviate or rescind those curses. Never gonna happen. Only when Jesus returns are these things going to be gone. Female rulership and anything resembling global governance(multicultural melting pot) are causes the enemy would LOVE for you to spend your life supporting and wasting your time on.
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Dorothy Mae
Member
You know, in the Bible women were prophets, they led armies into battle, one or two women single handedly fought the enemy and were instrumental in his death. They weren’t afraid to be at the cross. They saved Israelite spies.
Between having to bear children in pain or working your whole life in oder to eat, I think women got off light.
Between having to bear children in pain or working your whole life in oder to eat, I think women got off light.
Thank you so much for clearing this up! I still have a lot to learn about the Bible.
You are actually describing situational ethics so to put things in perspective, all that matters is what the scriptures teach. If we believe the bible to be the word of God we cannot ignore it for any subject.
I have written a dissertation for a Ph.D on this subject and when you do that you cannot approach it with preconceived ideas or you will miss important information. In all I read over 60 books on the subject.
Yes, there are many authorative women in scripture but there are none that are elders of the church. The NT was written primarily for the benefit of the church. The seminal scriptures for leadership in the church is Timothy and Titus. You cannot in all honesty construe from these verses that women were Elders. And it is important to note in the NT Church, it was governed by a plurality of Elders, not a pastor.
I refer you to one verse that says an Elder must be the husband of one wife. A simple question, how can a women be the husband of one wife?
In addition to Timothy and Titus there are 26 verses that talk about leadership and everyone talks about apostles, prophets and elders. Not one talks about pastors.
As for your contention that God loves everyone equally, why can't men have babies? Surely that is not loving everyone equally? When you read through scripture you will find loving everyone equally is not relevant in the context of your discussion. One could say that loving everyone equally is the reason why women are not put in leadership by the Lord. They have enough on their plate without adding church leadership.
Here is an anecdote for you to consider. In my country a woman in the Anglican Church had been pushing for years to be made a vicar. She eventually got her wish and the church caved in. We are at the stage where the first female bishop was appointed.
The Pentecostal church always had male pastors. After what developed in the Anglican church, the Pentecostal church started announcing the pastor was Bill Blow and his wife Juniper. Now you will not find a Pentecostal Church that is not led by a husband and wife team. It seems as though God had changed his mind and deleted Timothy and Titus and the 26 verses from the New Testament.
That started the slippery slope (as always happens when you ignore scripture) and now some churches are ordaining homosexual and lesbians.
So it is not a question of love. it is a question of how God made us in terms of what he has called us to do. Whether he loves us or not, it is not very loving for us to be called to do what we are not made to do. I meet with a bunch of guys on a Friday afternoon and there is one of them where it would be sacrilege to make him a pastor. He is a born deacon. He can see jobs that need doing without being told to do them. If the place is untidy, by the time we leave it is as bright as pin because he sees rubbish where we don't even see places. No one asks him to clear up. He just does it.
So God loves us by calling us to that which he has made us for. It is the church that mucks things up by imposing their idea of what love is and how we can give someone a role because they want it.