Bible Study Women, men and submission

[Nick]

You left out the other gospel, Luke. Maybe because in Luke it was both men and women at the tomb?

You're right, I left out Luke because it doesn't support my argument. But it doesn't support men being the first witnesses to Christ's resurrection either. Luke doesn't record when the women saw Jesus in the garden. It doesn't have a contrary story, either. So we can assume it just left it out.

If you noticed, I cited John, who also records Peter et al going to the tomb, except John adds in the bit about Mary seeing Jesus in the garden.

 

[Sparkey]

And at a time when women could not be heard in court the honor that was given them to be the first witness of the most important event in history was extraordinary. Well, it would be 'extraordinary' according to the standard of the world, but not for God. He began to honor women even at the beginning when the first Promise was given to her seed (Gen 3:15).

On one occasion, Jesus rose to the defense of a woman caught in adultery. He became her attorney and saved her life. And God was not ashamed.

We are told in John Chapter 4 that Jesus met a woman, and did something that shocked the disciples. He talked to her in public. And he was not ashamed. Not only was she a woman, but she was a divorcee. But not only was she a divorcee, she was actively living in immorality. Yet not only was she a woman, a divorcee, an adulteress living in sin, she was worse than a Gentile. She was a Samaritan—a half-breed. (A Samaritan was a person with whom Jews were never to talk.) Your Lord talked to this divorced, adulterous, Samaritan woman in public, and He forgave her of her sins. And he was not ashamed.

Jesus Christ had a custom of using women in His parables and making them heroes. He talked about the woman who searched and found her lost coin. He spoke of the woman who was unrelenting in the presence of the unjust judge who honored her for her persistence. He spoke of the widow who dropped all the money she had into the temple treasury and praised her for doing so. And he was not ashamed.

Once Jesus was dining with a self-righteous Pharisee. And in walked a woman. But this was not just any woman. She was a woman of the streets—a prostitute. Upon seeing the Lord, she dropped down to her knees and did something unsettling. In the presence of Pharisees, this woman unbound her hair and poured costly perfume upon the feet of our Lord. This unclean woman touched Jesus Christ in public. She wept, washed His feet with her tears, and dried them with her hair. This scandalous and improper act mortified the self-righteous Pharisees. At that moment, these religious leaders lost all respect for Jesus and doubted that he was a true prophet. But your Lord was not ashamed.

But that’s not all. Your Lord allowed an unclean woman to touch the hem of His garment, and he was not ashamed. In fact, he praised her for it. He also gave a Canaanite woman who was viewed as a dog in the eyes of Israel one of the highest compliments he ever gave anyone. He also healed her daughter, and he was not ashamed.

Following His death, it was the Women who first visited His burial. Even after His death, they were still following Him. They were still taking care of Him. And when He rose again from the dead, the first faces He met—the first eyes that were laid upon Him—were the eyes of women. And it was to them that he gave the privilege of announcing His resurrection, even though their testimony wouldn't hold up in court. And he was not ashamed.

The first gift to man was "woman". She is a gift from God; take note of the reaction:

"And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." - Genesis 2:23-25 KJV

REFERENCE / ACCREDITATION / NOTES
Selected excerpts from: Frank Viola Blog, God's View of a Woman, found at http://frankviola.org/2012/01/30/godsviewofawoman/

 

[Davies]

Good morning,

I think we see the submissive role for women in Jesus Himself. Jesus submits to the Father. I think marriage is a picture of the relationship between the Father and the Son. Just as Christ is the Husband of the Church, the Church submits unto the Husband. I'm thinking the object of it all is to have the Father all in all. This is definitely broken when either men or women want to rule themselves.

1 Corinthians 15:28

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


- Davies

 

[Kaliani]

Are you implying that Jesus loved women differently than the Church as a whole?

I meant that 'Love your wives as Christ loved women' sounds more simple and direct as it brings to mind more readily the intimacy of marriage.

I like it simple like that. I am not earth-shatteringly sophisticated. It may well be a bit too simplistic to be proper theology but it IS proper marriage advice, IMHO.

 

[WIP]

Should a woman submit and obey her husband?

Something doesn't seem right about this question. I searched but I can't find in scripture where is says that wives are to obey their husbands. I find where it says children are to obey their parents and we are to obey those who rule over us but I can't find where it says wives are to obey their husbands. Submit to them yes, but not obey.

 

[Grazer]

Something doesn't seem right about this question. I searched but I can't find in scripture where is says that wives are to obey their husbands. I find where it says children are to obey their parents and we are to obey those who rule over us but I can't find where it says wives are to obey their husbands. Submit to them yes, but not obey.

Many seem to equate obey and submit as the same thing

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sparkey]

Should a woman submit and obey her husband?

Something doesn't seem right about this question. I searched but I can't find in scripture where is says that wives are to obey their husbands. I find where it says children are to obey their parents and we are to obey those who rule over us but I can't find where it says wives are to obey their husbands. Submit to them yes, but not obey.

Agreed. Throughout the ages people have twisted the meaning and have taken various scriptures out of context in order to justify their desire to rule over others. This is specifically prohibited by the command, 'Do not 'lord it over' them as the heathen do' (see Mt 20:25-27). Those who do such things do not know God because they do not act on His word.

 

[Claudya]

so what's the difference between submission and obedience?

 

[Sparkey]

On the extreme, obedience marginalizes a person - it is what a soldier is expected to do, follow orders without question. This is not the position that God has for women in society but instead it is a false system that the world has used to enslave others and to set up the "war between the sexes". No wonder so many marriages fail, right?

Okay, so that was the 'extreme' side. But most bible believing people do actually love God and have softer hearts than that so what we see is a man who is deprived of the good voice of his wife in his walk because of his misunderstanding. Notice that the Scripture actually tells women how to submit, "as unto the Lord". We are all told to deny ourselves and yield (submit) our members to the Holy Spirit. Yielding is much softer in nature than strict obedience (rather harsh). Real submission comes when we are convinced that others are looking out for us and trying to do their best to follow God in order to serve our best interest. Christians are told to submit to one another (not just wives to husbands Eph 5:21). This would include brothers submitting to the admonitions from their sisters in the Lord.

I think that if people would apply the 2nd Greatest Commandment and not require of others that which they do not require of themselves, the whole issue would dissolve away. Yesterday, I posted something about how Jesus treated women (see Post 44). Christians are to act toward others as those who understand the plan of God, as those who look forward to their unity with themselves and with God, to the end that God is all in all. We are to consider the long-suffering of God toward us and how we would not be saved without it, then apply that knowledge to our dealings with others. If this is true for how we are to act toward our friends and fellows, how much more so should we apply it to the one we have entered into marriage and have asked God to unite us with?

Trying to answer from another view - one of the differences between the two can be see from the point of origin and the direction of the act. Obedience originates from somebody over or above somebody else. Somebody in authority uses their power to coerce or force others into compliance. Submission, on the other hand, originates in the heart of the person who is contemplating an act. Godly submission takes this a step further because we are told that those who wish to be great should serve others. So in this fashion it could be said that the direction submission comes from is as from a servant (one who is considered to be below - and helping).

 

[Sparkey]

I would take an exception to what you're saying there, Edward. We are told to obey Christ, "If you love me, obey me." That's because Jesus is the only begotten Son and there will never come any harm from strict obedience to Him. Can you say the same for any other man? Even a pastor has limits to his authority.

We are told to submit one to another in the fear of the Lord. And this is how we submit, always in the fear of the Lord. We do ALL things as if we were doing them unto the Lord.

1 Peter 2: 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance (or law) of man WHY? It says for the Lord’s sake, because of the Lord, …whether to a king as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by Him for vengeance on evildoers, or for praise on well-doers. WHY must we do this? Verse 15 says because it is the will of God, doing good to silence the ignorance of foolish men; as free, and not having freedom as a cover of evil, but as servants of God. Again the servant thing. Our submission as Christians is always first to God, it’s always in the fear of God, and it’s always the will of God.

In James 4: it says, "God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

Again humility and servanthood. We are not to call for obedience as a way to exalt ourselves but rather seek to serve.

Perhaps you and I are saying the same thing in essence, because I do see what you say there about men seeking to be worthy of their calling and to consider themselves a/the Bride of Christ in all things. It is perhaps too subtle of a difference between us for me to take exception to, but I don't believe that it is proper for a husband to tell his wife that she must obey (all of his whims).

Still, a case may be made for that side of the discussion. The bible does speak about the heart of a wife who is married to an unbeliever. 1 Pet 3:1 - "Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word (in other words, they are unsaved), they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;"

And then we get to what I believe is the crux of the matter of submission:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each individual among you also love his own wife even as he loves himself; and let the wife see to it that she respect her husband.

Notice that here we find men commanded to love their wives and wives told to respect their husbands. All this centers on loving others (our wives and husbands) as we love our own flesh.

 

[Sparkey]

We are saying the same thing. I'm certainly not saying for men to tell their wives to obey them and their whims just because of some supposed authoritativeness position, but rather out of a respect to God.

I notice that you are practicing what you preach here - and not taking opposition (like many who are untrained in the ways of submission) would. Thank you for your kindness; it is a powerful witness to the truth of your words.

 

[WIP]

What is the difference between obey and submit?

Merriam-Webster describes as follows.
Obey
1: to follow the commands or guidance of
2: to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>

Submit
1
a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : surrender
b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>

2: to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

The way I read this is that obedience is not something we choose to do but do because we have no choice. To submit, on the other hand, is a choice we make. We give in and relinquish our position. As pointed out above, falling objects WILL obey the laws of gravity.

 

[AirDancer]

You're not alone, Edward. CFnet continues to be a blessing to many of us who, like you, have found holes in our previous walks. Our Lord is definitely merciful to us!