Bible Study Women, men and submission

[stovebolts]

Are you suggesting that if the man isn't doing her job, then the woman is freed from her job? The Bible teaches just the opposite, that she should continue her job to win him over.

No Hammer, I'm telling the truth. Ever known a gal that just ranted and ranted and ranted till it made you sick? Well, if that's your wife, your still commanded to show and treat her with a biblical love. Your not off the hook. For better or worse right? lol

As a husband, we are commanded to love our wives, even when they're not lovable. There is not a criteria for not loving our wives, yet we all fail to love or treat our wives with love.

Fact is, it makes it easier to love our wives when they're being respectful toward us. And likewise, when we husbands are not being loving, it's not easy for our wives to show us respect. When we show our wives love (in a biblical sense) it is much easier for them to show respect toward us.

As men, we need to step up to the plate and respond to our wives through a biblical love and stop playing the "She's such an xyz". It's time to step up to the plate and be mature and show love where love isn't earned... and that's called grace.

Does that clear it up for ya?

 

[Hammer]

1. I don't know any married couples that attend separate churches.

I know a couple devoted to two different denominations, pentecostal vs. reformed churches. The family alternates between churches (irregular intervals). I think they should pick one and go with it. The funny thing is the wife wants to attend the reformed church even though she seems more pentecostal than her husband (e.g. she speaks tongues, he doesn't).

2. I love my church, but at times have left feeling challenged by the pastors message. I know people who have left my church because they didn't like being told that their lifestyle was wrong. In particular an acquaintance that was living with her boyfriend.

And, that is why pastors don't preach against sin. Still, good riddance. I highly doubt that couple was financially supporting the church and their lifestyle was poisoning the church.

The pastor did a message on sexual sin, and hammered those living and sleeping together before marriage. If I hear something that offends me at church, but can't scripturally combat it, then I need to pray about it and look at it as an opportunity to grow.

3. Women can't speak at all? Sounds very conservative.

Most churches ignore this principle, even conservative churches, beyond limiting the pastoral staff positions to men. A very few churches have segregated Sunday School classes. I like that idea. Men teach the men, and women teach the women. I think it benefits everyone.

 

[iLOVE]

Approximately three weeks ago while attending bible study the Minister talk about this subject. He stated that a husband and wife who attended the church was having problems in their marriage. The wife alone began couselling with the Minister about her role in the marriage (submission & obdience). He further stated her husband wanted her to have a sexual threesome because of his interpretation of scripture. The Minister told her that this was wrong and a sin. Because of his couselling the Minister had to get a restraining order against the husband and wife for trying to harm him because of his couselling.

 

[Nick]

I voted "yes - absolutely". I am assuming that the man in the poll is a Godly man who generally fulfills his role in the marriage. If he is being led by the Lord, then the woman must obey, given Ephesians 5.

But we must remember - it is not a husband's responsibility to force a woman to submit - a Biblical submission is one done freely by the wife. It is proper for her to do so, but a decision she alone must choose. Same with the man's (IMO harder) role in marriage.

I also want to add that I believe when the Bible talks about the gender roles in marriage it applies specifically to spiritual matters. I do not think it means that the husband has a monopoly on domination over the whole household. Yes - he should be the guide, and in spiritual matters defiantly be the leader, but I don't think this means that the wife cannot lead the husband in other areas.

My . When I get more time I might be able to get more scripture together on this, considering it is the Bible Study forum.

 

[stovebolts]

Most churches ignore this principle, even conservative churches, beyond limiting the pastoral staff positions to men. A very few churches have segregated Sunday School classes. I like that idea. Men teach the men, and women teach the women. I think it benefits everyone.

Sunday School classes or adult classes? Do you feel that women can teach the little boys in the Sunday School class?

At our church, the women primarily teach the children's Sunday School and it's a mix for our Bible hour. Male's teach our Teen group as well as our College aged class. Moving up the ladder Male's teach the Adult classes held on Sunday and Wednesday. On occasion, a woman does hold a woman's class.

From our Teens up to our Adult classes, women are encouraged to participate in the classes.

 

[Jules_C]

Thank you, all. I think I have made some progress on this issue! Though there's a way to go!

 

[Davies]

Hi Jules_C,

I think that a wife should submit to the husband, and as others have pointed out, it should be as unto the Lord. The husband is going to be wrong on several occasions. I believe that is a given considering I'm wrong on several occasions. Would I expect my wife to obey me when I'm wrong? If it goes against what God has commanded, we should never do what husbands or wives tell us to do. I think there are a couple of things that may put this into perspective. When we consider the personal nature of following God, we see that we give up our will. We struggle with that, and there is no question that to give up our will to God is right and good. How much more will we struggle to submit to our spouse if we are struggling with God? And then, there is the exhortation to think of others better than ourselves. I think these are supernatural works that God will do in us. So, the primary focus is on Jesus, and if we are content in the promises of God, then I think submission will take on a special joy I hope to progress in even as I serve my wife.

- Davies

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

My wife and I have always placed Jesus at the center of our marriage.
Therefore, what you are discussing is a non-issue to us.
However, a church that feels the need to push this issue onto the congregation must be having difficulties that need to be addressed.
A husband and wife should decide together if this issue needs to be addressed in their marriage.
Personally, I would question attending any church that pushes this issue onto it's congregation.

 

[reba]

As stated earlier this is the Bible Study forum. Meaning DEBATE is not allowed here you find the line between debate and discussion ..

IMO When the world hears Christians speak of submission exspecialty wifely submission... the picture is one of barefoot and pregnant as in keeping stupid and under the thumb.... Our Biblical example of a wife is

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

 

[Claudya]

Seems I'm the first that clicked "outdated".
If I'd seen the results before voting I would have been scared of voting that third answer because standing alone is terrible and I don't want to bother anyone.

But yes, I think it is outdated. (Not irrelevant though, because christian couples may have to worry about that question at certain points along their way.)
For a marriage to work for years or decades both will have to submit to each other.
Also, women of today have the same economical and educational chances men have, and thus they are just as qualified to make everyday decisions as men are. It's not like in Paul's day and age.
Personally I would probably submit to my husband, if he is okay with that (according to my previous experience with men I suspect most guys would be rather unhappy and irritated about a submissive wife). But if I submit and obey I would do it because I chose to do that, because I enjoy it. Not because my church or my husband tell me so.
So whatever I might choose to do in a possible future marriage is a personal decision, not a law for all marriages. It'd be impossible to make a law for all the unique combinations of people out there anyway.

 

[Knotical]

I think there is a negative stigma attached to a wife being submissive to her husband, and their perception of it may actually be different than what the bible describes.

In my marriage my wife is certainly submissive to me, but I am also trying my best to be a servant leader. That means I am not a dictator, but a "lead by example" kind of person, and putting my families needs above mine. This is, of course, a constant struggle because, as a human, I always want to do things for myself, but as they say, "practice makes perfect." So, the more you put others first the easier it becomes.

Getting back to submission, it is more along the lines of when a decision needs to be made that the final say falls to me, but I will always take suggestions and input from my wife. Because I have been known to be wrong from time to time. It is hard to believe, but it is a true fact.

 

[reba]

Knot, You remind me of my Dad.... He never preached/taught wifely submission with out first teaching husbands love your wife as Christ loves the church....

but I am also trying my best to be a servant leader.

almost a quote from dad!

 

[Vanguard]

It depends...

1. If you are Jewish and living by the Torah, I might say yes, although their position has been redefined in recent years.
2. If you are a Christian, the Old Testament does not apply to you. Any Christian church/denomination that uses OT verses to "preach" the role of men and women in marriage, does so erroneously.
3. Lastly, and most importantly, the Bible was written in a time when women were viewed as little better than slaves. They were not allowed to obtain an education, they were expected to do little more than domestic duties, and they were viewed with suspicion. Culture has obviously changed in the last 2,000 years. You have to look at things in the Bible within the context that they were meant for.

 

[Nick]

ILastly, and most importantly, the Bible was written in a time when women were viewed as little better than slaves. They were not allowed to obtain an education, they were expected to do little more than domestic duties, and they were viewed with suspicion. Culture has obviously changed in the last 2,000 years. You have to look at things in the Bible within the context that they were meant for.

And yet, the first wittnesses of Jesus' resurrection were women.

 

[Grazer]

And yet, the first wittnesses of Jesus' resurrection were women.

Not according to Paul

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[Kaliani]

My opinion may well be worthless but I will give it anyway. Typical.

'Love your wives as Christ loved the church' is a nice oft-repeated Christian advisory, but 'Love your wives as Christ loved women' sounds more practical, applicable.

Warmest thanks for suffering me. I didn't vote as I am not officially a Christian.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I feel that many good Christian women wont mind submitting to a good Christian man who loves and treats her the way God intended. The problem arises when you are dealing with a man who doesn't have Christ as his head but he still tries to be the head of the woman which can be oppressive. Also, there are women who want to be "king" of the Castle and not remain in the role God intended for them and that creates problems as well. To me it is clear even through nature that God designed women to be in more submissive roles. Its not even about educational or economical status, its about Gods design which clearly shines through in nature. I think men shouldn't stand in front of a woman or behind a woman, but he should stand beside her, but men usually stand taller

 

[Nick]

Not according to Paul

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Could you provide the passage where Paul says this?

Because I have Matthew 28:1-15, Mark 16:1-3 (esp v9), John 20:1-18 saying that women were indeed the first to see Jesus.

 

[Nick]

My opinion may well be worthless but I will give it anyway. Typical.

'Love your wives as Christ loved the church' is a nice oft-repeated Christian advisory, but 'Love your wives as Christ loved women' sounds more practical, applicable.

Warmest thanks for suffering me. I didn't vote as I am not officially a Christian.

I don't see the difference. Are you implying that Jesus loved women differently than the Church as a whole?

 

[Vanguard]

Could you provide the passage where Paul says this?

Because I have Matthew 28:1-15, Mark 16:1-3 (esp v9), John 20:1-18 saying that women were indeed the first to see Jesus.

You left out the other gospel, Luke. Maybe because in Luke it was both men and women at the tomb? The only thing that we can infer is that Mary Magdalene was there...beyond that, the gospels disagree.