Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

word from Hank Hanegraaff: Can Christians lose their salvation?

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00

Danus

Member
I know we have tons of threads addressing this, but I thought I'd start a new one with this short article from Hank Hanergraaff. I think he does a great job addressing this question.
__________________________________________________________________


Sincere believers are sharply divided on this question. Some say Christians can lose their salvation and subsequently must be born again and again if they fall away. Others contend that true believers cannot lose their salvation through sin, but they can apostatize or walk away from their salvation. Still others hold that salvation begins at the moment of conversion (not death) and continues for all eternity—I hold this view for several reasons.

First, outward appearances can be deceiving. Consider Judas. For three years, he was part of Christ’s inner circle. From all outward appearances, he was a true follower of Christ. Yet, Jesus characterized Judas as “a devil” (John 6:70).
John 6:70 (New International Version)
70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

The book of Hebrews warns us that there were Jews who, like Judas, tasted God’s goodness and yet turned from his grace. They acknowledged Christ with their lips, but their apostasy proved that their faith was not real.

Furthermore, we would do well to remember that everlasting life means just that—life everlasting. This life does not begin when we die but when we embrace the Savior who died in our place. As our physical birth can never be undone, so too our spiritual birth can never be undone. Christ said “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7 kjv), not “ye must be born again and again and again.” In Philippians, Paul praises God for the confidence that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion” (1:6).

Finally, Scripture is replete with passages that testify to the security of the believer. John 5:24 assures us that “he who believes . . . has eternal life” (emphasis added); 1 Corinthians 1:8 promises that Christ will “keep you strong to the end;”
1 Corinthians 1:8 (New International Version)
8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And Jude 24 guarantees that God “is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault.” Moreover, Ephesians provides the surety that “you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession” (1:13–14). As has been well said, the Lord’s trees are evergreen.

John 10:27–29
“My sheep listen to my voice;
I know them, and they follow me. I give them
eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one
can snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me,
is greater than all; no one can snatch them
out of my Father’s hand.”

- Hank Hanergraaff. Can Christians lose their salvation?
Bio - http://www.equip.org/site/about_hank_hanegraaff
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.

I wonder what Hanegraaff has to say about this passage ....


1 John 3:1-10

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

 
.

I wonder what Hanegraaff has to say about this passage ....


1 John 3:1-10

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I have a good idea of what he would say about it, but what do you say about it?
 
.

This passage was addressed to Jewish Believers , warning that a child of God can indeed turn into child of the devil for those who keep on sinning ....

Losing salvation ???? :chin
 
.

This passage was addressed to Jewish Believers , warning that a child of God can indeed turn into child of the devil for those who keep on sinning ....

Losing salvation ???? :chin

In regards to the term "keep on sinning"; John is not asserting "sinless perfection" for the believer in this life as a condition for salvation, rather he explaining that the believers life is characterized by doing what is right, or turning from sin.

We see this throughout the bible, but we know from the whole of scripture that no man is sinless. However, while no man is sinless (even the saved) some turn away from sin and some turn towards sin. Those who are saved are still sinners, but they have a desire to turn from sin and towards God. Those who keep on sinning (Willfully) are those who reject God. In the end no one makes it out alive. We all die. Why? because we are all sinners, but those who embrasse Christ are saved. IE those who turn to Christ, love God...ect.

This notion that one can live a literal sinless life, or that a sinless life is a condition for salvation, or keeping it, does not add up to any biblical logic. It certainly does not favor what faith is all about, and so many think that even though we love God, want to know and have this relationship with God, we also know that we are not worthy of it, and there in lies the idea that we best get on the same level by being sinless. However, that's not what God says of himself in relation to us who love him.

If one thinks one can loose their salvation, they are not questioning their sins, they are questioning something much bigger....their faith in the promise God has made for those who love him.

These are not Hanks words, but this is pretty much what he'd say. We can break 1 John 3:1-10 down a little more for what it is, but the verse does not address loosing ones salvation really. It's more about the saved vs the lost to begin with. Children of God are the saved, those who "Keep on sinning" means those who reject God. So it's not saying your a child of God, but if you sin your a child of the devil. There is no reference to being one and truing into the other.
 
Danus, that is an excellent find of someone using the correct scripture in context to show the validity of eternal salvation.

I was wondering how long it would take the anti-eternal salvation crowd to try and tear it down, and what they could possibly use to refute it. I obviously did not have to wait long.

1 John 3:1-10 does not say anything about losing your salvation, no matter what anyone underlines in it (aka. taken out of context). It appears John was reaffirming that when we stand before God in our glorified bodies that we will be like him, incapable of sin.

We continue to sin even though we believe in Him, that is our sin nature. Believing in Him and standing in front of Him glorified, are two separate things.

It looks like the scripture is describing three basic things. One, that unbelievers who sin are like the Devil, and the Devil has been sinning since the beginning. Two, believers have had their sins forgiven by Jesus, but we continue to sin. But we know that Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins past, present, and future. Three, when we actually stand before God in our glorified bodies we will be like him and will be incapable of sinning.
 
It looks like the scripture is describing three basic things. One, that unbelievers who sin are like the Devil, and the Devil has been sinning since the beginning. Two, believers have had their sins forgiven by Jesus, but we continue to sin. But we know that Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins past, present, and future. Three, when we actually stand before God in our glorified bodies we will be like him and will be incapable of sinning.

That's my take as well. I'm a slow Apologist, but I'm trying to get better at it. Lot's of fast balls in here for good practice. :)
 
.

Both of you have your own unique ways of interpreting scriptures according to your beliefs, just as OSAS opponents also have their own unique ways of interpreting scriptures according to their beliefs.

But here's the thing .... I DO believe in OSAS, absolutely. And if you go back to my earlier post, I specifically singled out "those who keep on sinning". I did not say those who sin. Big difference. But even with Christians who keep on sinning, I believe salvation is possible if they repent on their death bed !

But you guys seem to draw a sweeping conclusion that they are hopelessly lost !


:shrug
 
.

Both of you have your own unique ways of interpreting scriptures according to your beliefs, just as OSAS opponents also have their own unique ways of interpreting scriptures according to their beliefs.

But here's the thing .... I DO believe in OSAS, absolutely. And if you go back to my earlier post, I specifically singled out "those who keep on sinning". I did not say those who sin. Big difference. But even with Christians who keep on sinning, I believe salvation is possible if they repent on their death bed !

But you guys seem to draw a sweeping conclusion that they are hopelessly lost !


:shrug

We addressed the term "Keep on sinning" and what it means. It's referring to the lost (period) those who have not accepted Christ at all. those who are unrepentant, who see no need for salvation. That is the meaning in context to the verse you are using. One is either saved or they are not. You don't get saved and dumped by God.

a Christian who willfully sins is an oxymoron term, like "Army Intelligence"; we know that's not possible....I joke I kid! But seriously, A Christian of has sought salvation as such to be called such, is one who turns from sin....one who repents from and turns to God. But, they are not perfect. They still sin. they are still sinners. However, they have a willful relationship with Christ. One that molds then more to the image of Christ, and in that...CHRIST does not let them GO. Rather he teaches us and uses our sins to do so...it's a process of edification that does not perfect us here....but does perfect us later. In any case we are not just dumped by Christ for our sins. If we are then none of us our saved...not one. But, we know that's not true. It's all over the bible how that's not true and there are no contradictions to it unless one reads that if we sin we are out. That is a huge contradiction.

To believe in Christ is to have faith in Christ. To not have faith in what he's clearly promised is to think that we have anything to do with our salvation other than having faith in Christ to begin with. In that Faith in Christ....we are perfected....this life of a Christian is an ongoing practice of faith that strengthens over time through edification. You can not loose it.

Jesus make a very good illustration of this seen in Matthew 25:14-30 "the parable of talents".
In it, talents can be seen as ones faith.
Matthew 25:14-30 (New International Version)

The Parable of the Talents

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. 19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'
23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


We can not hide our faith in our salvation for fear that we might loose it. Rather, we should be strong and sure in our faith, our salvation, so that it may grow even stronger. That is the only way we might truly invest our faith and to do that requires faith.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've said my piece in the other threads on this subject, so I won't get into it here. (I know this comes with much disappointment from everyone. ;) )

Bar-none, Hank Hanegraaff is my favorite thought leader in Christianity today. I listen to his show most everyday and will catch the ones I miss on his podcasts. For those who don't listen to him, his show is for the most part, a call in show. Callers ask theological questions, and he will give scripture to provide concrete answers. I don't find myself agreeing with everything he says, but for the most part he is extremely sound and consistent.

A statement he includes with his many of his responses is very important in my opinion. He often says, "This is something that sincere Christians can vigorously debate, but it doesn't need to divide." He knows where the issues are that we need to hold ground and not concede, and he knows the ones that can be disagreed upon while standing shoulder to shoulder in the name of Christ.

He has written a number of books, including "Kingdom of the Cults". He's not one bit afraid to call out cults where they are and separate them from biblical Christianity. So he's not wishy-washy on his theology at all. He just knows where we can differ and still be One Church.

Thanks for the post, Danus!! :thumbsup
 
There are a few things I also don't necessarily agree with him on, but I could about count them on one hand with less fingers than I have on said hand.

Your dead on with that statement he makes, in regards to debating and not dividing. He also stresses the importance of "learning to read the bible for all it's worth". Taking scripture in it's whole.

Hank is my mentor in as far as his approach to the bible. I support his ministry (and he never let's me forget it $$$) :lol but I feel his organization CRI is of great importance in this age of (as he would say) scientific enlightenment and biblical discernment.

I hope to post a few more of his words here and there. He has written a lot of books and CRI makes all of them, as well as tons of others works, available for those looking to build a healthy Christian library. They carry several works from other Christian authors and theologians that do not fully tow Hanks line, but are no less valid.
 
Yes, in addition to his radio show, I could go on and on about his books. I don't want to derail this thread, though. I just want to give him my humble stamp of approval.
 
Meh. I don't care for him myself. As Charles Stanley once said, one should be very careful when referring to one's self as "The Bible Answer Man." I don't care for some of his theology and just the name of his show is prideful. There are much better theologians, thinkers, teachers and apologists than him.


In response to the OP, Christians can lose their salvation regardless of what "A Bible Answer Man" says. :)
 
Meh. I don't care for him myself. As Charles Stanley once said, one should be very careful when referring to one's self as "The Bible Answer Man." I don't care for some of his theology and just the name of his show is prideful. There are much better theologians, thinkers, teachers and apologists than him.


In response to the OP, Christians can lose their salvation regardless of what "A Bible Answer Man" says. :)

:lol Well, there are a lot of bible answer men and women in here, but no one holds the title like Hank. Least he's honest.

Charles Stanley is not too far off the mark from Hank in his theology. Do you agree with Charles Stanley? Reason I ask is that he also believes that our salvation is secure just like Hank.

Here is an excerpt from one of Charles Stanly's articles on salvation.

Believers are often tempted to walk away from God's call on their lives. We live in a corrupt world, where all manner of wickedness, profanity, and filth are within our reach. When you and I give in to temptation, it's as if we have just reached out and touched the grime of a coal mine and wiped it on our white clothing. But we can ask for forgiveness and become completely clean again. Every believer is sealed with an eternal "stamp" signifying that he or she belongs to Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:13). Our salvation is secure. Even so, you and I can become spiritually dirty and in need of God's cleansing touch. - Source - The Price of Walking Away

You'll notice he says we are secure in our salvation, but never the less we can damage our spiritual life. He makes a clear distraction of what it means to walk away from God, but how as believers God does not walk away from us.
 
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseb to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,â€[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.â€[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
:lol Well, there are a lot of bible answer men and women in here, but no one holds the title like Hank. Least he's honest.

Charles Stanley is not too far off the mark from Hank in his theology. Do you agree with Charles Stanley? Reason I ask is that he also believes that our salvation is secure just like Hank.

Here is an excerpt from one of Charles Stanly's articles on salvation.

Believers are often tempted to walk away from God's call on their lives. We live in a corrupt world, where all manner of wickedness, profanity, and filth are within our reach. When you and I give in to temptation, it's as if we have just reached out and touched the grime of a coal mine and wiped it on our white clothing. But we can ask for forgiveness and become completely clean again. Every believer is sealed with an eternal "stamp" signifying that he or she belongs to Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:13). Our salvation is secure. Even so, you and I can become spiritually dirty and in need of God's cleansing touch. - Source - The Price of Walking Away

You'll notice he says we are secure in our salvation, but never the less we can damage our spiritual life. He makes a clear distraction of what it means to walk away from God, but how as believers God does not walk away from us.

OSAS isn't a sound doctrine. If Jesus had said it, it would be, but Jesus said many sons of the kingdom will be cast out into an outer darkness. A son of the kingdom is someone who preaches the kingdom. So there will be many who will be cast out. And then he said no human being would be saved if God hadn't shortened the days of tribulation. This suggests we must perserve to the end to be saved. And he said many will fall away. Love will turn to hate. Etc.

Hank argues that once you are born again, born of the Spirit, you can't be born again - over and over. I agree. But without food and water, the spiritual body can wither and die. At the close of the age, it will be gathered up as a withered branch and thrown into the fire; good for nothing; salt that has lost its saltness - it is cast out.

But I'm not saying this so that you lose hope. On the contrary, I'm glad to see you are eating and drinking the words of the Lord. That's good. His words are spirit and life. But OSAS isn't good. In my view it is stunting your growth to a certain extent. It's polluting the water. So give people the living water you have heard. Encourage one another. Feed one another as you are doing. I'll see you later.
 
OSAS isn't a sound doctrine. If Jesus had said it, it would be, but Jesus said many sons of the kingdom will be cast out into an outer darkness. A son of the kingdom is someone who preaches the kingdom. So there will be many who will be cast out. And then he said no human being would be saved if God hadn't shortened the days of tribulation. This suggests we must perserve to the end to be saved. And he said many will fall away. Love will turn to hate. Etc.

Hank argues that once you are born again, born of the Spirit, you can't be born again - over and over. I agree. But without food and water, the spiritual body can wither and die. At the close of the age, it will be gathered up as a withered branch and thrown into the fire; good for nothing; salt that has lost its saltness - it is cast out.

But I'm not saying this so that you lose hope. On the contrary, I'm glad to see you are eating and drinking the words of the Lord. That's good. His words are spirit and life. But OSAS isn't good. In my view it is stunting your growth to a certain extent. It's polluting the water. So give people the living water you have heard. Encourage one another. Feed one another as you are doing. I'll see you later.

Thank you MarkT. I did not mention OSAS did I? I'm just passing on Hank's, and Charles take on this often confused piece of theology. However, I'm attempting to keep this on their words.

Good point on Hank's take about being born again and again. He does say that and he uses that as an illustration to the idea that a saved person can not be saved again. That's true. God does not say you must be born again and again "if you fall, or slip, or sin". Repentance and excepting salvation are two different things. They may work together in terms of spiritual growth, but one is not TOTALY indicative of the other, meaning that even Christians who are saved still have room for further repentance in their life. They may or may not be aware, but not being aware does not make them not saved. If it did, then none of us are saved and have no hope of salvation since none of us deserve it in the first place.

If we do not deserve salvation due to our fallen condition, how could anyone save themselves? They can't. It's only offered through God's grace and can only be accepted through our faith in that grace. The flip side of OSAS is to think we have the power to be good, or walk in Christ path on our own. In the end we have to come to terms with this. Are we able to hold on to our own salvation? If we are not able due to our fallen nature to save ourselves, how then are we able to keep something we can't even acquire on our own?

There is a thought that Christians who think in terms of "OSAS" are shallow people who willfully sin thinking it's OK because they have accepted Christ. Nothing could be further from the truth. The consequence of sin are apparent in the physical, as well as the metaphysical/spiritual world, but to say that one must be sinless to be in a saved condition runs counter to what the bible says about man in the first place. "I'm saved....but if I step out of line, I'm not saved?" So then to be saved I must walk the line of a sinless nature? if we could do that we could save ourselves. So, what's the difference? The bible clearly says that we are to be borne again. Once we are born again we are so from where we stand. From there we grow.

I submit, It is just as dangerous to think we have anything to do with our salvation. God calls us to him, we react or not, but even if we do react it is only by God's grace that we are saved. The quality of our relationship with Christ is largely determined by our sin, but we are no more or less saved because of our sin. In the in we carry our own cross regardless.
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top