word, word,word and more word

[disciple831]

WORD,WORD,WORD,N,MORE,WORD. Paul the apostle, got the same reverlation when writing to the church at Ephesus, near the end of the letter he wrote this, finally, my brethren, or to sum up all of what i have just said, my brothers, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil, do you see it child of God? Stand firm against ALL strategies of the devil, but you need God's armor, and the armor is this, the belt of truth, breastplate of righteousness, shoes of the gospel of peace, shield of faith, helmet of salvation, sword of the spirit, now let's look at these parts of armor piece by piece and keep it simple, first is the belt of truth, Jesus said, "I am the way the TRUTH and the life," in fact just about every time Jesus spoke he started the sentance with, " most assuredly i say to you" which when transelated simply means i tell you the truth, glory to God. so to put on the belt of truth is to know the words of Jesus, next is the breastplate of righteousness. righteousness is right standing with God, or what please's God, Paul writes in Hebrews 11:6 "And it is impossible to please God without faith", its as simple as that, and faith only come's by hearing and listening to the word spoken by God through the lips of his son Jesus Christ, glory to God, next are the shoes of the gospel of peace, gospel in the Oxford English dictoinary translates, the teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ, wow praise God! , next is the shield of faith, Paul says "above ALL take the shield of faith to stop ALL the firey darts of the devil, and this is the same faith that only come's by reading and listening to the word spoken by God through the lips of his son Jesus Christ, next is the helmet of salvation, Simon Peter wrote this "for you have been born again, not to a life that will quickly end. your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal and living word of God. as the scriptures say, "people are like grass; their beauty is like a flower in the field. the grass withers and the flower fades. but the WORD of the Lord remains forever. glory to God . and finaly the sword of the spirit, Paul himself tells you that the sword of the spirit is the WORD of God, he also says in hebrews 4:12 for the Word that God speaks is ALIVE and powerful, it is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, wow thats sharp praise God, you see child of God what Paul is trying to get through to you is WORD, WORD and more WORD, glory to God, if you want a belt of truth it comes from the WORDS of JESUS, if you want the body armor of Gods righteousness, you need to read the WORDS of JESUS, if you want the peace shoes of God, you need to listen to the WORDS of JESUS, if you want to hold up the shield of FAITH, it comes from hearing the WORDS of JESUS , if you want the helmet of salvation, start reading the WORDS of JESUS , if want to hold and wield the sword of the spirit, start speaking the WORDS that Jesus spoke, but in order to speak the WORDS that Jesus spoke you need to know them first, and how do you get to know them? you need to read them or listen to them, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God, how simple is that praise God. Jesus also said in mathew 4:4 my people shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that comes from the mouth of God, you see child of God you need the WORDS of Jesus daily just like food. now lets just take a look at another man with no name, the centurion who's servant were sick and tormented, said "Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof. but only speak a WORD, and my servant will be healed,for I also am a man under authority, having solidiers under me. And I say to this one, 'GO',and he goes; and to another, 'come', and he comes; and to my servant, 'do this,' and he does it." and pay attention child of God to how Jesus answerd. when Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to all those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you,or I tell you the truth, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! glory to God for his TRUTH, can you see what i am trying to teach you. JESUS, GOD Himself has not seen faith like this from the time of Jacob till that point had not seen faith like this no named centurion who's only credential to recive this praise from God was to ask for some words from Jesus for him to believe. like i say and will carry on saying keep it simple, now you child of God you don't have to ask Jesus for some words for you to belive in because He has all ready left them for you and me and whosoever glory to God. now lets look at Jesus's mum Mary and what she says about her son, i mean this woman should know her son inside and out, lets go to John verse 2 you know the story thers a wedding at cana and about half way through they ran out of wine, and Mary said to the servants "what ever my son says to you, DO IT, glory to God how simple is that praise God. Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. can you see it child of God? this is a message from God, you are my sheep if you listen to the words that I have left as a legasy for you, I now know you and see you following me.how simple is that? praise God. fAITH, LOVE AND PEACE IS ALL YOU NEED jESUS HAS DONE ALL THE HARD WORK. :amen

 

[Tomlane]

disciple831, great thread and all Christ centered and centered in His word. Your whole thread was right on what faith is all about.
I will be waiting to read more of your threads.

Tomlane

 

[Eccl12and13]

WORD,WORD,WORD,N,MORE,WORD. Paul the apostle, got the same reverlation when writing to the church at Ephesus, near the end of the letter he wrote this, finally, my brethren, or to sum up all of what i have just said, my brothers, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power, put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil, do you see it child of God? Stand firm against ALL strategies of the devil, but you need God's armor, and the armor is this, the belt of truth, breastplate of righteousness, shoes of the gospel of peace, shield of faith, helmet of salvation, sword of the spirit, now let's look at these parts of armor piece by piece and keep it simple, first is the belt of truth, Jesus said, "I am the way the TRUTH and the life," in fact just about every time Jesus spoke he started the sentance with, " most assuredly i say to you" which when transelated simply means i tell you the truth, glory to God. so to put on the belt of truth is to know the words of Jesus, next is the breastplate of righteousness. righteousness is right standing with God, or what please's God, Paul writes in Hebrews 11:6 "And it is impossible to please God without faith", its as simple as that, and faith only come's by hearing and listening to the word spoken by God through the lips of his son Jesus Christ, glory to God, next are the shoes of the gospel of peace, gospel in the Oxford English dictoinary translates, the teachings and revelations of Jesus Christ, wow praise God! , next is the shield of faith, Paul says "above ALL take the shield of faith to stop ALL the firey darts of the devil, and this is the same faith that only come's by reading and listening to the word spoken by God through the lips of his son Jesus Christ, next is the helmet of salvation, Simon Peter wrote this "for you have been born again, not to a life that will quickly end. your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal and living word of God. as the scriptures say, "people are like grass; their beauty is like a flower in the field. the grass withers and the flower fades. but the WORD of the Lord remains forever. glory to God . and finaly the sword of the spirit, Paul himself tells you that the sword of the spirit is the WORD of God, he also says in hebrews 4:12 for the Word that God speaks is ALIVE and powerful, it is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, wow thats sharp praise God, you see child of God what Paul is trying to get through to you is WORD, WORD and more WORD, glory to God, if you want a belt of truth it comes from the WORDS of JESUS, if you want the body armor of Gods righteousness, you need to read the WORDS of JESUS, if you want the peace shoes of God, you need to listen to the WORDS of JESUS, if you want to hold up the shield of FAITH, it comes from hearing the WORDS of JESUS , if you want the helmet of salvation, start reading the WORDS of JESUS , if want to hold and wield the sword of the spirit, start speaking the WORDS that Jesus spoke, but in order to speak the WORDS that Jesus spoke you need to know them first, and how do you get to know them? you need to read them or listen to them, because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of God, how simple is that praise God. Jesus also said in mathew 4:4 my people shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that comes from the mouth of God, you see child of God you need the WORDS of Jesus daily just like food. now lets just take a look at another man with no name, the centurion who's servant were sick and tormented, said "Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof. but only speak a WORD, and my servant will be healed,for I also am a man under authority, having solidiers under me. And I say to this one, 'GO',and he goes; and to another, 'come', and he comes; and to my servant, 'do this,' and he does it." and pay attention child of God to how Jesus answerd. when Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to all those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you,or I tell you the truth, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! glory to God for his TRUTH, can you see what i am trying to teach you. JESUS, GOD Himself has not seen faith like this from the time of Jacob till that point had not seen faith like this no named centurion who's only credential to recive this praise from God was to ask for some words from Jesus for him to believe. like i say and will carry on saying keep it simple, now you child of God you don't have to ask Jesus for some words for you to belive in because He has all ready left them for you and me and whosoever glory to God. now lets look at Jesus's mum Mary and what she says about her son, i mean this woman should know her son inside and out, lets go to John verse 2 you know the story thers a wedding at cana and about half way through they ran out of wine, and Mary said to the servants "what ever my son says to you, DO IT, glory to God how simple is that praise God. Jesus said "my sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. can you see it child of God? this is a message from God, you are my sheep if you listen to the words that I have left as a legasy for you, I now know you and see you following me.how simple is that? praise God. fAITH, LOVE AND PEACE IS ALL YOU NEED jESUS HAS DONE ALL THE HARD WORK. :amen

First:
PARAGRAPHS, PARAGRAPHS, PARAGRAPHS and more PARAGRAPHS!!


Second:
"fAITH, LOVE AND PEACE IS ALL YOU NEED" Really?

James 2
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Looks like James is saying you need WORKS with FAITH! Let's read more:

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

If Abraham HAD NOT drawn back the knife would his faith have been proven before God?

[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So we see that beacause of Abrahams FAITH he was able to perform the WORKS that brough about perfection.

[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And what of the harlot?

[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rahab was able to save herself and her entire family because she took ACTION, she performed an ACT, she WORKED!


Last:
PARAGRAPHS, PARAGRAPHS, PARAGRAPHS and more PARAGRAPHS!!

I had to. It was the sin within me :devil

 

[Tomlane]

Eccl12and13, I don't mean to steal anyone's thunder but works follows faith. Works doesn't produce faith. Works before faith produce unbelief and that is calling God a liar.

The thief on the cross is a good example of that or anyone else who believes Christ's finished work for us on the cross upon there death bed.

If we work it's no longer of faith.

Salvation is a free gift. You accept it, you don't earn it, you believe that is works enough. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20 (KJV)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28 (KJV)

Here is a very good reason why God does not want your works for salvation.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:15-16 (KJV)

I hope you will reconsider and let God be true.

Tomlane

 

[disciple831]

Amen to that tomlane. but love is works, how can you love and not do something, love simplyfied is to bennifit others at the expence of SELF. :amen

 

[Tomlane]

Amen to that tomlane. but love is works, how can you love and not do something, love simplyfied is to bennifit others at the expence of SELF. :amen

disciple831, Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27 (KJV)

First we need to have the law of faith to be justified.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28 (KJV)

And you are right, love is works after we are justified but not before and our love should be obedience to the word. Would you agree the only real love or works that God honors would be our obedience to His word and not what we think is right but what is spelled out for us in His word as the Holy Spirit direct us?

Tomlane

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13, I don't mean to steal anyone's thunder but works follows faith. Works doesn't produce faith. Works before faith produce unbelief and that is calling God a liar.

The thief on the cross is a good example of that or anyone else who believes Christ's finished work for us on the cross upon there death bed.

If we work it's no longer of faith.

Salvation is a free gift. You accept it, you don't earn it, you believe that is works enough. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20 (KJV)

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28 (KJV)

Here is a very good reason why God does not want your works for salvation.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:15-16 (KJV)

I hope you will reconsider and let God be true.

Tomlane

So what James says does not count? James said Abraham was justified by WORKS! Are we to just throw that out?

Because the last time I read the bible Jesus said:

Luke 4
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Is not the writings of James part of the, "every word of God"?

Or how about this:

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Was not James writings part of, "all scriptures"? Was not James writings 'inspired of God"?

So tell me, James said:

James 2
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now unless I'm reading this wrong, James is saying that, by the works that Abraham did he was justified, and not by faith only. Did you get that too?

So tell me what I should do with what James said? Is Paul the ONLY writer you can go to for clarification? According to the scripture we are to use ALL of the bible, not just the writings of Paul.

Can you go to another writer and explain scripture so that ALL of the bible makes sense? I don't think you can? But according to scripture you should be able to:

1COr.14
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now I can explain Pauls writings and James writings together and ALL will make sense. Why? Well first of all I know what "the works of the law' and the "deeds of the law" is and can explain it very simply. Do you know what, "the works of the law' is? Better yet, can you tell me what the "works of the law" is WITHOUT using any of Pauls writings?

Let's try that for starters, then we can move on away from the milk of the scriptures!

 

[mondar]

Good post Tomlane,
I hope you dont mind me jumping in, but please continue.

To Eccl,
I can see you are very passionate about your point of view, but I would caution you about being so passionate that you do not read Tomlane's post in any more then a surface way. Your last post makes it appear that you think Tomlane is denying that there are works in the Christian life. I do not see him as denying works, but merely placing works after faith, not before faith. I see him as saying the same thing I have said... A true faith has its fruits. True faith produces a lasting life of seeking God and seeking righteousness. Because you are not reading Tomlane closely, are you building a straw man?

Also, concerning James 2... That test is not a contrast of faith and works, rather it is a contrast of a faith that can be seen because it results in works, and a false confession of faith. I, myself, would certainly not affirm easy believism.

I notice your fondness for making lists of verses. Please feel free to quote all the verses you want on works. Of course that will be talking right past all of us who believe works are the fruits of a true faith.

 

[Tomlane]

mondar, many big Dittos. :yes

 

[Drew]

So what James says does not count? James said Abraham was justified by WORKS! Are we to just throw that out?

Just to show that I am not out to undermine everything you write, I will, in a heavily qualified sense, agree with the notion that we are "justified by works".

Romans 2 - a text many simply ignore or explain with implausible theories - makes it indeed clear that at a final coming judgement for all men, eternal life will indeed be granted on the basis, that is according to, the good works our lives exhibit:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Just watch what people do with this. One of the favourite arguments is to say that Paul is describing a hypothetical route to salvation that none will achieve. Well, that's odd enough on its own - Paul never suggests anything hypothetical at all here. What people do, then, is to misread Paul's denial of justification by Torah (e.g. in Romans 3 and 4 and elsewhere) as a denial of justification by "good works". They then leverage that erroneous reading to claim that in Romans 2, Paul is talking a parth to justification that none take (since, they argue, Paul wouldn't deny justification by good works elsewhere and affirm it here in Romans 2).

But Paul means what he says - we are indeed justified at the end by "good works". And although I am frequently misrepresented on this, I will point out that I believe that Paul's overall argument is that it is by faith and faith alone that we are given the Spirit, and it is the Spirit that produces the works that justify us at the end.

So, in a sense, it is true to say that "good works are the evidence of prior saving faith". However, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - at the coming judgement, it will be "good works" that are on the table.

 

[disciple831]

mondar, many big Dittos. :yes

.AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN. :amen. jESUS said," My words are spirit and they are LIFE.

 

[Tomlane]

[size=150[color=#FF0040]]Drew and Eccl12and13, where do you to get the idea we are justified by works? You two lost me or did I misunderstand you two?
I hope the both of you will answer this important question.
[/color][/size]
Thanks Tomlane

 

[Ret]

James 2
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And what of the harlot?

[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rahab was able to save herself and her entire family because she took ACTION, she performed an ACT, she WORKED!

John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them,
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." NASU

Say I/you 'believe God'...do you consider that 'ACTION'?
Is 'BELIEVING' .... 'WORK'?

Ret

 

[Drew]

[size=150[color=#FF0040]]Drew and Eccl12and13, where do you to get the idea we are justified by works? You two lost me or did I misunderstand you two?
I hope the both of you will answer this important question.
[/color][/size]
Thanks Tomlane

First, I suspect (although I am not sure) that Eccl12and13 and I do not actaully share the same position on this matter once all the details of our respective position are on the table.

As for your question, I think the answer is clear and easy. Paul tells us in Romans 2 quite clearly that eternal life is granted according to "good works".

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This seem pretty straightoforward to me. How do you read this verse without concluding that eternal life is granted based on something other than "what we have done" or "persistence in doing good"? What do you think Paul means when he says "according to"?

 

[Rick W]

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

According to whose works? What works? Your works or God's works?
Notice Christ never claimed the good works He did were His and His alone. "from my Father", "of my Father".
How?
"the Father is in me, and I in him"

Again,
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Father in Christ, we in Christ, The Father in us. It's His works, not ours.

If I do the Father's works it is the Father in me that does them. If I do my own good works that does not mean I abide in the Father. Nor does it make me worthy that the Father should abide in me.

Christ never claimed good works of himself so how can we?
Do I have the faith of Abraham?

If I do my own works by these I will be judged. If I do the works of the Father then by these I will be judged. According to the works I do I will be judged. Therefore by whose works I do I will be judged.

 

[Drew]

According to whose works? What works? Your works or God's works?
Notice Christ never claimed the good works He did were His and His alone. "from my Father", "of my Father".
How?
"the Father is in me, and I in him"
.
.
.
If I do my own works by these I will be judged. If I do the works of the Father then by these I will be judged. According to the works I do I will be judged. Therefore by whose works I do I will be judged.

I could not agree more. I have made similar arguments, although grounded more in Paul, in order to avoid being mis-represented as asserting a "salvation by my own works" position. Yet, misrepresentation continues. And I expect that will continue/

I heartily endorse what you have written and the reader should know that I hold precisley this position and any statements of mine about how "good works" are salvific should be understood as being qualified by exacltly what you say here.

 

[Rick W]

I didn't know what a good work was until after I was saved. Before I was saved, as an unbeliever, I could care less. There was no faith.
Works by salvation not salvation by works

 

[Ret]

If I do my own works by these I will be judged. If I do the works of the Father then by these I will be judged. According to the works I do I will be judged. Therefore by whose works I do I will be judged.

1 Corinthians 11:31
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.KJV

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you,
say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. KJV

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing,
and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; KJV

Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; NASU

The righteous perform many 'works' as a 'duty' but they do not judge their 'works' as worthy of merit toward salvation. In comparison to the 'works' of Jesus Christ, the works of the righteous are 'filthy rags', 'filthy garment'.

Ret

 

[Tomlane]

Ret, how in the world can the works of the righteous be filthy rags? If a believers works were filthy then he never would be righteous would he?

I'm under the impression that all the works we do with the new man that Christ has given us that can't sin is what is righteous and our flesh that people seem to think by dunking it under water is going to make it clean without soap. I am also under the impression our sinful flesh stays sinful flesh and their is a war between the flesh and the spirit.

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1 Peter 2:11 (KJV)

So are we on the same page or not as I wasn't sure what you meant about works in your previous reply.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:1-5 (KJV)

Thanks, Tomlane

 

[Ret]

Ret, how in the world can the works of the righteous be filthy rags? If a believers works were filthy then he never would be righteous would he?

I'm under the impression that all the works we do with the new man that Christ has given us that can't sin is what is righteous and our flesh that people seem to think by dunking it under water is going to make it clean without soap. I am also under the impression our sinful flesh stays sinful flesh and their is a war between the flesh and the spirit.

Thanks, Tomlane

Tomlane....it's the Bible that says 'all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags'. This is why I don't depend on 'my righteous works' but on the 'righteous works' of Jesus Christ in the day of judgment. In my early christian experience this was very puzzling to me, also.

You have a good start, don't get discouraged about the journey heavenward, you are correct that 'our sinful flesh stays sinful flesh and there is a war between the flesh and the spirit'. Good!
Be Blessed......Ret

As to the rest of your post, in a previous post of mine, I did ask a question (w/quote from Eccl) about Abraham, but I don't remember discussing Abraham in my comments otherwise.