Works, Reveals IF a Person is Saved or Not

[Jay T]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

GOD'S JUDGMENT SCENE:

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".


Revelation 22:10 "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".

 

[francisdesales]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I think it is safe to say that a person who does not have works of love will not be saved. The works themselves do not save, but merely trusting God in faith without obeying Him is ineffective, as well.

Regards

 

[radorth]

Here's the problem. You can have works and not be born again. Jesus specifically warned that he will say "I never knew you" to those with all kinds of good works. To work the works of God, you have to know him and be reborn. Otherwise you are merely doing a bunch of religious stuff out of your own will, instead of the works which naturally result from being personally close to Jesus.

The thief on the cross got in by just calling Jesus "Lord." He had no works whatsoever, so by strict interpretation of the above scriptures there was no way he could go to heaven. And he wasn't Catholic either. That one event verifies the claims of born again Protestants that righteousness can and must be imputed for salvation.

Born again people who know Jesus have the works to prove it, but they are not saved because of their works. People should be more careful quoting James. He is telling those who CLAIM to have faith that their works do not support their assertion. He is talking to those who have neither faith nor works. He is NOT SAYING "go do good works so you can prove you have faith." That is the great mistake the "salvation through works" advocates make, and in fact they lead many astray and effectively deny spiritual rebirth to some who need it. You don't prove you have faith by doing works. You prove you have faith by that which you naturally do because you are reborn spiritually.

Rad

 

[unred typo]

Radorth wrote: Here's the problem. You can have works and not be born again. Jesus specifically warned that he will say "I never knew you" to those with all kinds of good works. To work the works of God, you have to know him and be reborn. Otherwise you are merely doing a bunch of religious stuff out of your own will, instead of the works which naturally result from being personally close to Jesus.

The thief on the cross got in by just calling Jesus "Lord." He had no works whatsoever, so by strict interpretation of the above scriptures there was no way he could go to heaven. And he wasn't Catholic either. That one event verifies the claims of born again Protestants that righteousness can and must be imputed for salvation.
Rad

You do have a problem but it is with your theology. The thief on the cross was forgiven of his sin and while he could not do any works except to witness to the other thief, he also could do no further sin to be guilty of unless it was to curse God and die, which we are told he didn‘t do.
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," ( notice his godly fear ) he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, ( forgiveness and justification of those who crucified him ) for we are getting what our deeds deserve. ( Confession of his sin and repentance of his past deeds ) But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]" ( belief in who Jesus was and that he was the Christ who could save him and an expressed desire to follow him in his kingdom. )
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Consider for a moment how much faith this man had in the Lord, who at the moment was neither a very hopeful king or savior. He must have heard Jesus teach or heard of him and his miracles. He confesses him before men as ‘not guilty of any sin’ and as able to rise from the dead and establish his kingdom. He must have said this loud enough that those standing under the cross heard him, in order to report it here in Luke’s gospel. The Lord confirms his salvation because of the faith he had, the repentance and confession of his sin, and the fact that his heart was right before God.

The problem with the other gospel that is taught today is that there is no true repentance of sin. People repent of past sin but they don’t repent of sin in the future. They repent once and then they feel they are free to sin at will as often as they wish, believing they literally can do no wrong in God‘s eyes.


Radorth wrote: Born again people who know Jesus have the works to prove it, but they are not saved because of their works. People should be more careful quoting James. He is telling those who CLAIM to have faith that their works do not support their assertion. He is talking to those who have neither faith nor works. He is NOT SAYING "go do good works so you can prove you have faith." That is the great mistake the "salvation through works" advocates make, and in fact they lead many astray and effectively deny spiritual rebirth to some who need it. You don't prove you have faith by doing works. You prove you have faith by that which you naturally do because you are reborn spiritually.

How do you ‘deny the spiritual rebirth’ to anyone? It is not by our own will that anyone is born again, but by God’s decision and when he feels a person is ready. Do you actually have the audacity to suggest that God is subject to your decision to be born again? I hope not. You can decide to obey him and you can confess your sin and you can pray the sinner’s prayer and you can grovel and eat worms but only God will decide if and when you will receive the new birth. It is something that he bestows on us out of love and mercy and can in no way be claimed unconditionally by any human.

 

[francisdesales]

sorry about the double post.

 

[francisdesales]

Here's the problem. You can have works and not be born again. Jesus specifically warned that he will say "I never knew you" to those with all kinds of good works. To work the works of God, you have to know him and be reborn. Otherwise you are merely doing a bunch of religious stuff out of your own will, instead of the works which naturally result from being personally close to Jesus.

True. I am not aware of any Christian who denies what you have written.

The thief on the cross got in by just calling Jesus "Lord." He had no works whatsoever, so by strict interpretation of the above scriptures there was no way he could go to heaven. And he wasn't Catholic either. That one event verifies the claims of born again Protestants that righteousness can and must be imputed for salvation.

No, he did more than just call Jesus "Lord". He had a firm trust that Jesus was more powerful than He appeared while dying on the cross. He believed that Christ had a power that He was choosing not to use. He believed that Christ had power in the next world and that the man might be rewarded. He repented of His sins and defended the honor of Christ. Thus, it was quite a bit more than just "hanging around".

What exactly is the "strict interpretation" of what IS a work, in your book?

I don't think any Catholic makes the claim that the good thief WAS a Catholic, so why are you bringing that up? Catholics are made by the Spirit through Baptism, and Baptism of the Spirit had not come yet.

And finally, this exception to the rule does NOT "verify" anything of the Protestant idea of "imputed justification". The thief began to experience a transformation - his was not just some legal stamp placed on his forehead saying "Good to go"... The thief on the cross REALLY WAS changing, internally.

IF you believe that the sin of Adam changed mankind internally, than the second Adam's redemptive act must ALSO have changed mankind internally. Those subject to this second birth have indeed been changed inside. This talk about "imputed justification" is only the beginning of the Gospel that God has given to us through the Apostles. You are selling God short... What He declares BECOMES so, not just in appearance or by legal definition. Some Protestants stop short at the best part of the Good News - that man CAN become divinized! We CAN SHARE in the divine nature of God as He transforms our very selves... We do not remain a pile of manure, versus what Luther said.

That is the great mistake the "salvation through works" advocates make, and in fact they lead many astray and effectively deny spiritual rebirth to some who need it.

Who exactly are these "salvation through works" advocates? Again, I am not familiar with any Christian group saying that works earns salvation...

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, You are right when you say that there has to be a change internally in a man to be saved. Ephesians 2:1 says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins, that's spiritual death, He has quickened, made alive. and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about. How do we know that we are born again? Read Romans 8:14-16. You see, our nature has to change because before we had the nature of the devil. Aftter, regeneration, we have the nature of God. If God lives in us, that our spirits need to be reborn from above, and if this is true, a Holy God cannot live where there is sin. Therefore, we were sinners saved by grace through faith and delclared righteous. It isn't scriptural to say I am a sinner saved by grace. Notice past tense. If we would still call ourselves sinners, then it would be impossible to say that we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away. our old selves, our old sin nature has passed away.

So part, you are right, but where you go wrong is that you say you are saved by grace through faith plus works.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, You are right when you say that there has to be a change internally in a man to be saved. Ephesians 2:1 says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins, that's spiritual death, He has quickened, made alive. and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about. How do we know that we are born again? Read Romans 8:14-16. You see, our nature has to change because before we had the nature of the devil. Aftter, regeneration, we have the nature of God. If God lives in us, that our spirits need to be reborn from above, and if this is true, a Holy God cannot live where there is sin. Therefore, we were sinners saved by grace through faith and delclared righteous. It isn't scriptural to say I am a sinner saved by grace. Notice past tense. If we would still call ourselves sinners, then it would be impossible to say that we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away. our old selves, our old sin nature has passed away.

Golfjack,

Glad to see we agree on some of this. Really.

I think why you believe that Catholics are wrong regarding "you are saved by grace through faith plus works" is because of our definitions differ. I think if we flesh this out more, you will find (more than likely) that we agree even more. If I am not mistaken, you refer to that one time we accept Christ. In that aspect, you are absolutely correct - we cannot merit the first gift of faith. The Council of Trent has affirmed that teaching - although it doesn't take the viewpoint of Luther who claims we are totally passive (if an adult!) in reception of the gift.

To us, "being saved" is not primarily or only refering to that moment when we accept Christ into our hearts. We note that salvation is a past, a present, and a future action... Primarily, thus, we see salvation PRIMARILY as refering to our eternal end (without excluding the sense of the past or the present "being saved" or "are saved").

Thus, when we hear "are you saved"?, this causes some confusion because we are not "saved" in the future (we don't have access to the book of the elect!). Sure, we have been saved in the past, we have been justified, made children of God, given a mark by the Spirit, and began transformation. However, we also realize that we can LOSE this status of being justified in God's eyes. Paul lists some such actions that will cause us to NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven in Galatians 5 and 1 Cor 6.

Would you agree with Paul and the rest of Scriptures that our JUDGMENT is dependent upon our works? If so, then we are closing in on agreeing in principle with each other. With Paul in Romans 2, we believe that the saved man will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven IF we perform evil works - caused by us. On the other hand, if we perform good works, we cannot say they are ours ALONE, because we can do NOTHING meritorious to earn heaven. However, God, being righteous, has promised a reward for those who obey, thus, in a secondary sense, we believe that God will reward our works - WHICH ARE A GIFT FROM GOD!

See, all is from God - but our participation or cooperation is NOT taken out of the equation (which was Luther's mistake). I hope this helps to clear up how we sometimes talk past each other on this subject...

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Hi fran. I can't tonight, but I will give you some scriptures that talk about salvation tomorrow.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

Fran, You are right when you say that there has to be a change internally in a man to be saved. Ephesians 2:1 says that you who were dead in trespasses and sins, that's spiritual death, He has quickened, made alive. and verses 8 and 9 tell you how it came about. How do we know that we are born again? Read Romans 8:14-16. You see, our nature has to change because before we had the nature of the devil. Aftter, regeneration, we have the nature of God. If God lives in us, that our spirits need to be reborn from above, and if this is true, a Holy God cannot live where there is sin. Therefore, we were sinners saved by grace through faith and delclared righteous. It isn't scriptural to say I am a sinner saved by grace. Notice past tense. If we would still call ourselves sinners, then it would be impossible to say that we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. Old things have passed away. our old selves, our old sin nature has passed away.

So part, you are right, but where you go wrong is that you say you are saved by grace through faith plus works.



May God bless, golfjack

Jack
Trully I do not understand how you can say you are no longer a sinner..

I have stated many times that I praise God that I am a sinner, saved by Grace through the shed blood of the lamb, The LORD Jesus Christ.

So having stated this to you, and since you questioned my Chritianity in your above post, Its time we look even more closley at what the Scriptures say.
First I took a Scripture that on the surface would seem to the novice bible study student to say and agree somewhat with what you are saying. Notice I went back far enough and forward to capture the context of those verses.

Romans 6:5-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


6:11 Reckon is an accounting term that means "to take into account," "calculate," or "decide." Verses 3 reveal the truth that believers have already died to sin because they have participated in Jesus death. Since believers have died with Christ and have also been raised with Him, Paul now urges Christians to consider themselves dead . . . to sin. Although before conversion they were still enslaved to the power of sin, now they are free to resist it. Jack. You agree with me so far correct?. Next verse

6:12 Though believers in Christ have died to sin, sin is still a problem. The sin principle is still present and can express itself through the mortal body, the body that is subject to death. The difference is that sin has no right to reign. Thus, Paul admonishes the believer not to obey it.
As you will see a little later when we get to chapter 7 ''sin is still a very real problem with the believer'' Lets continue.
6:13 Verse 12 has the whole body in view; v. 13 focuses on the individual parts of the body such as the hands or mouth. Believers are not to present the parts of their bodies as a means of sinning. Simply put: Do not use your hands to steal or your tongue to lie. Rather believers should present themselves to God and the parts of their bodies as instruments of righteousness. Does this mean we always do it? NO. It seems to me that even in your responses to me, the flesh has flared up, thus sinning. So how you can say your not a sinner is beyond me. Lets continue.

6:14 Not under law means not under the Law of Moses. Yet the believer with God's help, the believer under grace, fulfills the law (see 3:31; 13:8). The Mosaic system consisted of external laws which revealed the sin prevalent in human hearts. In contrast, God's grace places the believer in Christ, and the Holy Spirit in the believer. Therefore a Christian does not have to sin, he or she can resist temptation and do what is right (see 2 Cor. 3:15).
Does this mean we always do what is right? NO..
jack....Can you keep the 10 commandments for 1 day, how about 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 10 years???

I will go work on Romans 7 for a little bit.

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

To us, "being saved" is not primarily or only refering to that moment when we accept Christ into our hearts. We note that salvation is a past, a present, and a future action... Primarily, thus, we see salvation PRIMARILY as refering to our eternal end (without excluding the sense of the past or the present "being saved" or "are saved").

Thus, when we hear "are you saved"?, this causes some confusion because we are not "saved" in the future. Sure, we have been saved in the past, we have been justified, made children of God, given a mark by the Spirit, and began transformation.

Regards

Francis
While I don't often agree with you, this above statement is pretty accurate.
It is reformed theology. I don't know if you knew that.
While I do not believe that a Child of God can loose his salvation, trully we are not saved until we are in the precesence of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Its a tough concept for most to Grasp, but if you think about it logically and slowly, it makes sense. Where we differ though is quite simple.
The question thus becomes. How can we ensure that we are in the lambs book of life. How can we be sure we are part of the elect..
Did God choose us or not? This then brings up ELECTION. The doctrine of election raises serious problems in the human mind, so we must consider more fully what the Bible does (and does not) teach on this subject. This is where both Calvin and Wesley (armenianism) have it wrong.

First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47). (calvin)

On the other hand, the Bible never teaches that God chooses men to be lost. The fact that He chooses some to be saved does not imply that He arbitrarily condemns all the rest. He never condemns men who deserve to be saved (there are none), but He does save some who ought to be condemned. When Paul describes the elect, he speaks of them as “vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory†(Rom. 9:23); but when he turns to the lost, he simply says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). God prepares vessels of mercy to glory, but He does not prepare men for destruction: they do this for themselves by their own unbelief.

The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, although He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost. Does God have the right to show mercy to some?

But there is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it. (armenianism)

The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..

By the way, Good works are evidence of ones salvation. However one must be careful here. I believe that one of the greatest forms of works are the eldely That are the prayer warriors of my church. Do I see them working? NO. Does God hear their prayers? YES

 

[radorth]

You do have a problem but it is with your theology.

Hmm, getting a little personal aren't you? Was I talking to you, calling your theology bad or something?

The thief on the cross was forgiven of his sin and while he could not do any works except to witness to the other thief, he also could do no further sin to be guilty of unless it was to curse God and die, which we are told he didn‘t do.
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," ( notice his godly fear ) he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, ( forgiveness and justification of those who crucified him ) for we are getting what our deeds deserve. ( Confession of his sin and repentance of his past deeds ) But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]" ( belief in who Jesus was and that he was the Christ who could save him and an expressed desire to follow him in his kingdom. )
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

And? I somehow missed a jot somewhere? Not sure why you are repeating the obvious or how this proves my theology is bad or unscritural.

Consider for a moment how much faith this man had in the Lord,

Precisely.

who at the moment was neither a very hopeful king or savior. He must have heard Jesus teach or heard of him and his miracles. He confesses him before men as ‘not guilty of any sin’ and as able to rise from the dead and establish his kingdom. He must have said this loud enough that those standing under the cross heard him, in order to report it here in Luke’s gospel. The Lord confirms his salvation because of the faith he had, the repentance and confession of his sin, and the fact that his heart was right before God.

And? These constitute some good work any person who is born again does not do? If you are arguing that he needed to repent also, fine. I hardly disagree.

The problem with the other gospel that is taught today is that there is no true repentance of sin. People repent of past sin but they don’t repent of sin in the future. They repent once and then they feel they are free to sin at will as often as they wish, believing they literally can do no wrong in God‘s eyes.

I never suggested otherwise, but of course that is irrelevant to whether Jesus needed anything but faith and recognition from the thief.

How do you ‘deny the spiritual rebirth’ to anyone?

You effectively deny it if you let them think their good works constitute evidence of faith per se. As I said Jesus will deny people who substitute works for the works of true faith.

It is not by our own will that anyone is born again, but by God’s decision and when he feels a person is ready. Do you actually have the audacity to suggest that God is subject to your decision to be born again?

Oh gosh no and no one else gleaned that amazing interpretation from what I said either. Obviously the person can be saved by talking to someone else about what it takes to be saved if I somehow miinform him or her.

Rad

 

[jgredline]

Here's the problem. You can have works and not be born again. Jesus specifically warned that he will say "I never knew you" to those with all kinds of good works. To work the works of God, you have to know him and be reborn. Otherwise you are merely doing a bunch of religious stuff out of your own will, instead of the works which naturally result from being personally close to Jesus.

The thief on the cross got in by just calling Jesus "Lord." He had no works whatsoever, so by strict interpretation of the above scriptures there was no way he could go to heaven. And he wasn't Catholic either. That one event verifies the claims of born again Protestants that righteousness can and must be imputed for salvation.

Born again people who know Jesus have the works to prove it, but they are not saved because of their works. People should be more careful quoting James. He is telling those who CLAIM to have faith that their works do not support their assertion. He is talking to those who have neither faith nor works. He is NOT SAYING "go do good works so you can prove you have faith." That is the great mistake the "salvation through works" advocates make, and in fact they lead many astray and effectively deny spiritual rebirth to some who need it. You don't prove you have faith by doing works. You prove you have faith by that which you naturally do because you are reborn spiritually.

Rad

great Post Rad 8-)
How about that Thief? The first one to see paradise and he skipped the baptism :

 

[Solo]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.Ephesians 1:3-14

Believers who have faith in Jesus Christ after trusting in His Work after hearing the word of truth, are sealed with the earnest payment of the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the purchased possession. Jesus Christ bought and paid for each believer that has trusted in Him, and no believer that has been born again will ever be cast away from Him. The Holy Spirit of promise has sealed ALL believers as an earnest payment until the day of redemption. This is such a simple truth, yet so many do not understand the enormity of this promise.

The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ bought us by offering himself up as a sacrifice in our stead. Since he bought us with his blood, and sealed us with the Holy Spirit as an earnest payment of his possession until the day of redemption, we believers have nothing to fear, nor to doubt. Neither do we have to add anything to what Jesus Christ has paid in full for. Unfortunately there are religious organizations of this world that would add, remove, or confuse the simple salvation message.
.

 

[jgredline]

Solo
Amen and Amen

 

[Jay T]

I think it is safe to say that a person who does not have works of love will not be saved. The works themselves do not save, but merely trusting God in faith without obeying Him is ineffective, as well.

Regards

Yes, love for both God and man is the motivating factor is whether one is 'saved' or not.

And the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) are the very way in which we express that love, for both man and God.......

As the first 4 commandments, are our love for God....

And the last 6 commandments, are our love gor our fellow man.

"IF..you love me, (Jesus said), keep my commandments", (John 14:15)

 

[Jay T]

I think it is safe to say that a person who does not have works of love will not be saved. The works themselves do not save, but merely trusting God in faith without obeying Him is ineffective, as well.

Regards

Yes, love for both God and man is the motivating factor is whether one is 'saved' or not.

And the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) are the very way in which we express that love, for both man and God.......

As the first 4 commandments, are our love for God....

And the last 6 commandments, are our love gor our fellow man.

"IF..you love me, (Jesus said), keep my commandments", (John 14:15)

 

[SputnikBoy]

How about that Thief? The first one to see paradise and he skipped the baptism :

Oh, oh ...I'm disagreeing again. Paradise is synonymous with heaven and neither Jesus nor the thief made it to heaven that day. Jesus did, however, assure the thief that, on that day, his salvation was assured.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

While I don't often agree with you, this above statement is pretty accurate.
It is reformed theology. I don't know if you knew that.

I have discussed salvation extensively with Calvinists. There are SOME similarities between Catholic Doctrine and "TULIP". Actually, there is a man named James Akins who has written a book about salvation (Catholic convert from Calvinism) who actually changes some of the meanings of the acronym to better reflect our teachings. If you are interested, I can look it up for you...

While I do not believe that a Child of God can loose his salvation, trully we are not saved until we are in the precesence of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Its a tough concept for most to Grasp, but if you think about it logically and slowly, it makes sense. Where we differ though is quite simple.
The question thus becomes. How can we ensure that we are in the lambs book of life. How can we be sure we are part of the elect..
Did God choose us or not? This then brings up ELECTION. The doctrine of election raises serious problems in the human mind, so we must consider more fully what the Bible does (and does not) teach on this subject. This is where both Calvin and Wesley (armenianism) have it wrong.

How can we ensure that we are in the book of life... yes.

God of course knows, seeing the future and past as one moment of time. He is able to see our choices and responses to His graces. Did God choose us? Yes, He choose us into the Church. After extensive discussion, I have come to the conclusion that election is a mystery that is beyond us in this life. Yes, there are Scriptures that seem to point to the Calvinist point of view. On the other hand, there are NUMEROUS Scriptures that discuss that man CAN loose his salvation - or more correctly, man can THROW IT AWAY... (it cannot be taken away, only lost by man's free choice).

Quite frankly, Catholic doctrine DOES teach election of the predestinate. We do NOT believe that God elects the reprobate, as Calvin taught. However, the Catholic Church does not define the more specific theology regarding election - whether taught by Aquinas, Augustine, Molina, or more modern Congrueists. We actually have the option of being rather free in our thought on this issue without being "outside" of Catholic teaching. For example, I CAN hold to the idea that God sees our response "before" election - OR I can hold that God does NOT see our response "before" election. For this reason, it is merely theological opinion, and is really not worth becoming divisive over.

First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47). (calvin)

God, technically, doesn't have "foreknowledge", since God is beyond time. This is part of the confusion, in my opinion. Yes, the bible uses the word. However, it is anthropomorphic - like saying "the hand of God". The words are in the bible, but WHO believes that God had a hand in the OT? It is a way of speaking. Same with "foreknowledge". Again, understanding how God works OUTSIDE of time might help to explain MY OPINION of this matter (I am now not speaking DOCTRINE, as I have previously explained - we are open to many opinions on the matter).

First of all, God is beyond time. He is transcendant and is not subject to time. A key error some make is that people place God on a chronological time scale. First, God created the world, then God thought about making you, elected you, then God made you, and so forth. It doesn't work that way, from God's point of view, because God is not subject to time. ALL OF TIME is equally accessible to God in one moment or one view. Thus, in the eternity of God's NOW, He has created the world, He has become incarnated, He has elected you, He has formed you, He has seen you die, He has seen you go to heaven (I am presuming you will achieve heaven. Please do not take this as your certain destiny because I said it : )

Thus, God SIMULTANEOUSLY sees EVERYTHING in time as one moment. If God is changeless, this is how theologians understand God's point of view on things of creation. With this simultaneity in mind, how can God NOT see your works of love at the same time you are being elected and at the same time you die? To God, your past, present and future is equally under His view. Thus, He knows your response to His graces and cannot NOT know them. This is not saying that He bases His election upon this knowledge, but He does note our responses to His graces - giving to more who have much and taking away from those who have little...

This interaction between my responses and God's graces are a mystery. We cannot explain them on this side of heaven. However, I believe the Bible has enough warrant to show that our judgment will be based upon our deeds of love. Thus, our election TO HEAVEN will somehow be based upon how we respond to God's graces in the here and now. Of course, we cannot by ourselves work to heaven. But this does not rule out our cooperation and participation with God within us - as verses such as Phil 2:12-13 point out.

The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, although He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost. Does God have the right to show mercy to some?

But there is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it. (armenianism)

The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

I think we are pretty much on the same page, as I describe above.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..

Which again takes me to "what does 'saved' mean?" Answering this question would help to clear up some of our differences, I believe. If you consider being saved as the past event ONLY, then we disagree. But if salvation is an ongoing event, beginning when we first accept the Lord into our lives, then we are getting closer.

By the way, Good works are evidence of ones salvation. However one must be careful here. I believe that one of the greatest forms of works are the eldely That are the prayer warriors of my church. Do I see them working? NO. Does God hear their prayers? YES

Oh, but they ARE working! Not in the sense that they are earning anything, such as payment would be demanded. But they are DOING something in a loving response to our Lord's commandments - to pray. Again, depends on how you define "work".

Regards

 

[radorth]

great Post Rad 8-)

Thanks

How about that Thief? The first one to see paradise and he skipped the baptism :

Yes, and no denominational ties, no pastoral teaching, no catechism and no works other than to repent. What was Jesus thinking? :-D I guess you could say he "grandfathered" in before the Catholics claimed jurisdiction? It's a wonderful story though, absolutely unique, and one more proof Jesus and his work was unique.