Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Works, Reveals IF a Person is Saved or Not

reply

Fran, The concept of Divine election is without doubt the most controversial concept in scripture.

First, it is obvious that divine election is taught in scripture. ( see Romans 9:27; 11:5, 7, 28). The question is: To whom is divine election offered? In my opinion, divine election is offered only to the nation of Israel.

Consider what divine election actually means. It means that a loving and gracious God has elected to save some and elected to allow others to be lost for eternity in the fires in hell. Now we can understand the gravity of the controversy.

How can divine election be true if God has given to all men free will moral agency, which is the power to choose to accept orvto reject God's offer of salvation?

Here are five Bible reasons supporting free will:

1. Romans 2:6-16
2. Malachi 3:6
3. Romans 9-11
4. Joshua 24:15
5. Psalm 119:30
6. Isaiah 7:15
7. Matt. 16:24
8. Isaiah 66:3
9. 1 Cor.7:37
10. Rev. 22:17

If divine election is true for Gentles, as some major denominations teach, why go to church? Why witness? Why evangelize? If God has already deterrmined who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell, why pray? Why read the Bible?

If divine election is true, how can you say, God is love? How can the Holy write in John 3:16 that God so loved the world....if He is still going to send most of you to and everlasting hell? ( see Matt. 7:13-14).

Divine election is a fact for some of the Jewish people who are a remnant according to the election of grace ( Rom. 11:5). Divine election simply is not for the Gentles.


May God bless, golfjack
 
reply

Fran. The problem Jg presents is that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven. But we know that faith pleases god. So it is our faith that tells us we are saved. We must trust, adhere to, and totally rely on what the Bible tells us to be saved. The champion verses are written in Romans 10:9-10 that tells us how to be saved. Our minds of course can doubt, but our hearts don't. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It doesn't say with the mind believe. I believe we have many doubting Christians today. They only believe what they see. I can't see heaven, but I believe I will be in heaven some day. You see, that is faith and faith is the only way to please God. Therefore, I am just going to trust God as to what He has said in His Word about me. Hebrews 11 talks about wavering faith, going back from to doubting and then to believing. If God's Word is not true, then I guess He lied to me.

Now lets go to 2 Timothy 1:12: The apostle Paul had a know-so salvation: He said, For I know whom I have believed ( his faith was in the risen Christ) and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that day. He hit a home run here. This statement should knock the doctrine of people who say that I am not saved until I get to heaven right out of the ball park.

Is your faith in God the Son, or is it in chyrch memborship, baptism, the Lord's suppedr, good works, the law or a moral life? We are to observe all these things because we are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, but never in order to be saved. If your faith is in anyone or anything other than Jesus Christ and Him alone, it is a vain faith ( Acts 4:12).

God's Word witnesses to you. If we receive the witness of men ( and we do, as, for example, the written witness of fallible historians), the witness of God is greater ( because He is infallible) ( 1 John 5:9). If you believe the witness of fallible man, why can't you believe the witness of the infallible God? Let God witness to you out of His Word, These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know ( not doubt) that you have eternal life ( 1 John 5:13). Yes, God wants you to be saved and know it

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are Children of God ( Romans 8:16). God's Word and the Holy Spirit witness as one, that you know that you have eternal salvation. The depth of your faith will determine the strength of your assurance. You can be saved and know it, because God, who cannot lie, tells you so in His infallible Word. When God says it, you can know it.

One question to Jg. How can a sinner be called a New Creature in Christ Jesus if one calls himself a sinner?


May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran. The problem Jg presents is that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.

Sorry Jack.
This is simply not true. Your lack of understanding theology and what the bible teaches is really bleeding through. You are letting your WOF theology cloud your judgement in my opinion. Show where I have said and I quote ''that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.''



One question to Jg. How can a sinner be called a New Creature in Christ Jesus if one calls himself a sinner?

Again Jack.
Your lack of understanding the scriptures is really coming to the surface.
You really need to loose this Kenneth Copeland theology you embrace so much. I for the life of me don't understand how you can not only say you are not a sinner, but that you actually believe that.


Lets look at what the bible says for a minute and leave our opinions out of it.

1 tim 1:15
15 πιστος ο λογος και πασης αποδοχης αξιος οτι χριστος ιησους ηλθεν εις τον κοσμον αμαρτωλους σωσαι ων πρωτος ειμι εγω

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

This is the first of five “faithful sayings†in the Pastoral Epistles. This is a faithful saying because it is the word of God, who can neither lie nor be mistaken. Men can afford to believe this statement with implicit trust. Indeed, to disbelieve it is unreasonable and unwise. It is worthy of all acceptance because it applies to all, tells what God has done for all, and extends the gift of salvation to all.

Christ Jesus emphasizes the deity of our Lord. The One who came from heaven to earth was first of all God (Christ) and then Man (Jesus). The pre-existence of the Savior is suggested in the words He came into the world. Bethlehem was not the beginning of His existence. He had dwelt with God the Father from all eternity, but He came into the world as a Man on a specific errand. The calendar testifies to the fact that He came; we speak of this as a.d. 19â€â€, the year of our Lord 19â€â€. Why did He come? To save sinners. It was not to save good people (there were none!). Neither was it to save those who kept the law perfectly (none had done this either).

Jack so far we agree right or wrong?

Here we come to the very heart of the difference between true Christianity and all other teachings. False religions tell man that there is something he can do or be in order to win favor with God. The gospel tells man that he is a sinner, that he is lost, that he cannot save himself, and that the only way he can get to heaven is through the substitutionary work of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

Jack; are we still on the same page?


The type of law teaching which Paul described earlier in this chapter gives a place to the flesh. It tells man exactly what he wants to hear, namely, that he can somehow contribute to his own salvation. But the gospel insists that all the glory for the work of salvation must go to Christ alone, that man does nothing but the sinning, and that the Lord Jesus does all the saving.

JACK; are we still in agreement or did I loose you?

The Spirit of God brought Paul to the place where he realized he was the chief of sinners (see romans 7), or as some translations have it: “a foremost one among sinners.†If he was not the chief of sinners, then certainly he was in the front rank. Notice that the title “chief of sinners†is not given to a man steeped in idolatry or immorality, but rather to a deeply religious man, one who had been brought up in an orthodox Jewish home!

Jack; I am guessing by now we are on a differant page, but keep reading.

Also, it should be noted that he says of whom I am chiefâ€â€not “was†but am.

The godliest saints are often the most conscious of their own sinfulness.

In 1 Corinthians 15:9 (written about a.d. 57), Paul called himself “the least of the apostles.†Then in Ephesians 3:8 (written about a.d. 60), he called himself “less than the least of all saints.†Now in 1 Timothy 1:15, written some years later, he calls himself the chief of sinners. Here we have an outline of Paul’s progress in Christian humility.

Jack; Think about what I have said for a second. To say otherwise would be calling the apostle Paul a liar. Keep in mind also that this letter to timothy was written in about a.d. 64






May God bless, golfjack

So Jack
You have still not given me a biblical answer on
How you can say you are not a sinner..
 
How about that Thief? Many say and some believe, which can not be proven because the Bible does not elaborate much about the thief. But, in this time many were baptized by John the Baptist. Of course it was not the same baptizim as we have today, but it was an important baptisim, if it was'nt Jesus would not have been baptized by John the Baptist. Understand, the Jews walked for days down to Jericho. From Jerusalem to Jericho alone is a two day walk. Jews came from all over the the country to be baptized. Who is to say the thief was not baptized by John at some time?? No one can, but it's an idea that should not go un-noticed without some thought.
 
reply

Jg. In the new birth my soul and flesh wasn't born again, but it is my spirit that is born again. Romans 7:25 says I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind ( soulish realm) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Paul is talking about a war we have between our recreated spirits and the flesh. The trick is to align you perfect spirit with a renewed mind in Christ, and that the flesh will align itself with the spirit The Real Man. We know that the flesh will never be perfect until we receive our brand new glorified bodies. You do know that we have a three-fold nature, which is spirit, soul, and body. What I am saying is that God only looks at one's heart ( spirit). Therefore, I want to say the same things that God says to me, and certainly God does not call me sinner, so why should I?



MayGod bless, golfjack
 
Radorth wrote: “Hmm, getting a little personal aren't you? Was I talking to you, calling your theology bad or something?â€Â

You have a fatal flaw in yours, and I thought it best to warn you that what you wrote is not scripturally consistent. You could call it personal, if you want to pretend I know you, but I‘m really just responding to your error. Obviously you still missed the significance of what I said.
Radorth wrote: “And? I somehow missed a jot somewhere? Not sure why you are repeating the obvious or how this proves my theology is bad or unscritural.â€Â

You slide by the substance of the account as if words have no meaning. In fact, the words, ‘faith,’ ‘belief’ and ‘Lord’ have been gutted of their true meanings and replaced with useless subtleties that nullify the intent of the writer and the Lord himself.

All of your comments below show a serious lack of understanding of the true gospel:
Radorth wrote: “And? These constitute some good work any person who is born again does not do? If you are arguing that he needed to repent also, fine. I hardly disagree.â€Â

Radorth wrote: “I never suggested otherwise, but of course that is irrelevant to whether Jesus needed anything but faith and recognition from the thief.â€Â

Rad previous: “The thief on the cross got in by just calling Jesus "Lord." â€Â

The rather obvious point that you seem to overlook is that the thief was rather tied up in the process of dying when he made his confession of faith and dead people seldom find the energy to do any works, let alone good ones. If you would like to make your confession of faith while nailed to a cross, instead of having the tedious job of living your life in obedience to Christ, why don’t you pray about it. Maybe you can be a missionary to some atheistic country where such practices are common place and you can end your burdensome Christian walk with Christ in a blaze of glory. I’m quite sure that the thief would have joyfully served Christ if he had gotten the chance. Since the Lord could see the intents of his heart, I believe that his belief and intent was as pure as Abraham’s raising the knife over Isaac.

And this quote takes the cake:

Radorth wrote: “You effectively deny it if you let them think their good works constitute evidence of faith per se. As I said Jesus will deny people who substitute works for the works of true faith.â€Â

In your book, what does “constitute evidence of faith per se� Doing nothing and expecting God to do it all using your body like a puppet on his hand? Do you think if you find yourself standing with the other goats in the judgment, you can say that the thief never gave anyone food or clothes or visited the sick and he got in, so you assumed you didn’t have to do anything either? Right. I’m sure that will sound logical. Maybe you can plead insanity.

Actually, when I said, “It is not by our own will that anyone is born again, but by God’s decision and when he feels a person is ready. Do you actually have the audacity to suggest that God is subject to your decision to be born again?â€Â, I meant that saying a ‘prayer of faith’ doesn’t insure that God will cause you to be born again, no matter how sincere you are. That is God’s call as to when you are ready to be born of the Spirit, not yours. I have a feeling that there are very few people who are so yielded to the Spirit for such to occur. Somepeople only reach such a state when they are faced with their own death and everything but eternity suddenly fades in comparison. I like the country song that says; “someday I hope you get the chance to live like you were dying.â€Â

.
 
Romans 7:13- romans 8:8 as this is one section. NKJV for text but I am refering to my Greek bible.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was (Look at the past tense of this verse. Paul here is speaking of the Law in the past tense and how it brought out trully how sinful he is as we will see) producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin(notice the present tense here. he recognizes that he is sold under sin. The Law reminded him of this). 15 For what I am doing (again present tense), I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do (again the present tense). 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Thus the conflict between the two natures rages on. Paul finds himself failing to do the good he wants to do, and instead doing the evil that he despises.
If I could paraphrase this verse as follows: “Now if I (the old nature) do what I (the new nature) don’t want to do, it is no longer I (the person) who do it, but sin that dwells within me.†Again let it be clear that Paul is not excusing himself or disclaiming responsibility. He is simply stating that he has not found deliverance from the power of indwelling sin, and that when he sins, it is not with the desire of the new man.

Paul finds a principle or law at work in his life causing all his good intentions to end in failure. When he wants to do what is right, he ends up by sinning.
As far as his new nature is concerned, he delights in the law of God. He knows that the law is holy, and that it is an expression of the will of God. He wants to do God’s will.
But he sees a contrary principle at work in his life, striving against the new nature, and making him a captive of indwelling sin.



24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now Paul lets out his famous, eloquent groan. He feels as if he has a decomposing body strapped to his back. That body, of course, is the old nature in all its corruption. In his wretchedness he acknowledges that he is unable to deliver himself from this offensive, repulsive bondage. He must have help from some outside source. (who might that be? We will see)

The verse summarizes the conflict between the two natures before deliverance is realized. With the renewed mind, or the new nature, the believer serves the law of God, but with the flesh or (old nature) the law of sin. Not till we reach the next chapter do we find the way of deliverance explained. Now before we get into the chapter 8 that is a continuance of chapter seven it is critical to understand and what the apostle is saying here, that we are sinners, but a Child of God will not live in sin. A child of God will not sin willfully, a child of God will not plan a robbery or a murder. Those would be pre-medditated sins. The old nature is and always will be a part of us until we are home. While we live in these mortal bodies we will be sinners
.


8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Notice right away that the personal pronouns that were so prominent in chapter 7 largely disappear, and that the Holy Spirit becomes the dominant Person. This is an important key to understanding the passage. Victory is not in ourselves but in the Holy Spirit, who indwells us......

Paul now climbs the heights with the triumphant shout, There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus!
First, there is no divine condemnation as far as our sin is concerned, because we are in Christ.
There was condemnation as long as we were in our first federal head, Adam. But now we are in Christ and therefore are as free from condemnation as He is. also it means that there is no need for the kind of self-condemnation which Paul described in chapter 7. We may pass through a Romans 7 experience, unable to fulfill the law’s requirements by our own effort, but we don’t have to stay there. I have told many Christians to stop living in Romans 7 and begin to live in Romans 8!!!!!!!
Verse 2 explains why there is no condemnation.
The Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. These are two opposite laws or principles. The characteristic principle of the Holy Spirit is to empower believers for holy living. The characteristic principle of indwelling sin is to drag a person down to death. It is like the law of gravity. When you throw a ball into the air, it comes back down because it is heavier than the air it displaces. A living bird is also heavier than the air it displaces, but when you toss it up in the air, it flies away. The law of life in the bird overcomes the law of gravity. So the Holy Spirit supplies the risen life of the Lord Jesus, making the believer free from the law of sin and death.
The law could never get people to fulfill its sacred requirements, but grace has succeeded where law failed. Let us see how!
The law could not produce holy living because it was weak through the flesh. The trouble was not with the law but with fallen human nature. The law spoke to men who were already sinners and who were without strength to obey. But God intervened by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Take careful notice that the Lord Jesus did not come in sinful flesh itself but in “the likeness of†sinful flesh. He did no sin (1 Pet. 2:22), He knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21), and there was no sin in Him (1 Jn. 3:5). But by coming into the world in human form, He resembled sinful humanity. As a sacrifice for sin, Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He died not only for the sins which we commit (1 Pet. 3:18) but also for our sin nature. In other words, He died for what we are just as much as for what we have done. In so doing, He condemned sin in the flesh.
Our sin nature is never said to be forgiven; it is condemned. It is the sins that we have committed that are forgiven.
Now the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. As we turn over the control of our lives to the Holy Spirit, He empowers us to love God and to love our neighbor, and that, after all, is what the law requires.

In these first four verses the apostle has gathered together the threads of his argument from 5:12 to 7:25. In 5:12–21 he had discussed the federal headships of Adam and of Christ.

Now in 8:1 he shows that the condemnation which we inherited from our identification with Adam is removed by our identification with Christ. In chapters 6 and 7 he discussed the horrendous problem of sin in the nature. Now he announces triumphantly that the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

In chapter 7 the whole subject of the law was brought up. Now we learn that the law’s requirements are met by the Spirit-controlled life.
Those who live according to the fleshâ€â€that is, those who are unconvertedâ€â€are concerned with the things of the flesh. They obey the impulses of the flesh. They live to gratify the desires of the corrupt nature. They cater to the body, which in a few short years will return to dust.

But those who live according to the Spiritâ€â€that is, true believersâ€â€rise above flesh and blood and live for those things that are eternal. They are occupied with the word of God, prayer, worship, and Christian service. This again does not mean we are sinless, but it means that sin no longer controls us.
To be carnally mindedâ€â€that is, the mental inclination of the fallen natureâ€â€is death. It is death as far as both present enjoyment and ultimate destiny are concerned. It has all the potential of death in it, just like an overdose of poison.
But to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The Spirit of God is the guarantee of life that is life indeed, of peace with God, and of a life of tranquility.
The mind-set of the flesh is death because it is enmity against God. The sinner is a rebel against God and in active hostility to Him. If any proof were needed, it is seen most clearly in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ. The mind of the flesh is not subject to the law of God. It wants its own will, not God’s will. It wants to be its own master, not to bow to His rule. Its nature is such that it cannot be subject to God’s law. It is not only the inclination that is missing but the power as well. The flesh is dead toward God.
It is no surprise, therefore, that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Think of that! There is nothing an unsaved person can do to please God â€â€no good works, no religious observances, no sacrificial services, absolutely nothing. First he must take the guilty sinner’s place and receive Christ by a definite act of faith. Only then can He win God’s smile of approval.

Wheww. This was long and put my mind to work. What a blessing.


So again I am a sinner just like the Apostle Paul who was saved by Grace and not by anything that I could ever do. It is a free gift from God.
Because of the Holy Spirit who indwells me I am free from strongholds in my life as sin does not have control over me. Does this mean I am not a sinner. NO, I am a sinner.

Jack I pray that you too will come to face the fact that Unless you are Jesus himself, you are a sinner just like the rest of us.
 
Fran. The problem Jg presents is that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.

Sorry Jack.
This is simply not true. Show where I have said and I quote ''that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.''

Jack
I would really like an explanation for this.
Thanks javier
 
Atonement said:
How about that Thief? Many say and some believe, which can not be proven because the Bible does not elaborate much about the thief. But, in this time many were baptized by John the Baptist. Of course it was not the same baptizim as we have today, but it was an important baptisim, if it was'nt Jesus would not have been baptized by John the Baptist. Understand, the Jews walked for days down to Jericho. From Jerusalem to Jericho alone is a two day walk. Jews came from all over the the country to be baptized. Who is to say the thief was not baptized by John at some time?? No one can, but it's an idea that should not go un-noticed without some thought.

It sounds to me like thief on the cross would make a great study. Atone, perhaps you start a new thread on this :)
 
reply

Jg. You never did answer my question about our recreated spirits being perfect. When we became believers, it was done instantaneously. Don't you get it? Why does the Book of Hebrews call us Holy, blameless, kingly priestly, and sanctified? My flesh certainly isn't holy. My mind isn't holy, and will not be until I get to heaven. In other words< god has done all He is going to do, by the new Birth. The rest is up to us. If I were to call myself and acholic, then I probably start drinking again. If I call myself a failure, then I would be a failure. When I say I, that is the real me, hideen man, or inward man. I just can't believe you don't get this. Probably because of your prejudice against Word of Faith. Like I said before, reformed thelogy is all wet and full of holes. But, when one has a pet doctrine, he has to fit in this doctrine into other scriptures to make one right.

All, I can say, you have a perfect right to call yourself a sinner. In my opinion, when you do that, you are living a defeated life.



May God bless, golfjack
 
jgredline said:
It sounds to me like thief on the cross would make a great study. Atone, perhaps you start a new thread on this :)

Preconceived notions, unwillingness to open mind + study = no point, forget it.

Open mind, willingness to learn + study =
:smt023

Even when we KNOW that Humphrey Bogart never said, "Play it again, Sam" in the movie Casablanca, we still WANT to believe that he DID say it. A stick of dynamite will not shift an erroneous belief once it's taken root. Study or no study, unless one is serious and sincere and willing to bite the bullet if need be ...then it won't work.
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran, The concept of Divine election is without doubt the most controversial concept in scripture.

First, it is obvious that divine election is taught in scripture. ( see Romans 9:27; 11:5, 7, 28). The question is: To whom is divine election offered? In my opinion, divine election is offered only to the nation of Israel.

I agree - although I would say that the "nation of Israel" is now called the Church, the People of God universally throughout the world. As the end of Rom 2 tells us, those who are in the Spirit have been spiritually circumcised and are part of the people of God. The elect are those called into the Church.

golfjack said:
Consider what divine election actually means. It means that a loving and gracious God has elected to save some and elected to allow others to be lost for eternity in the fires in hell. Now we can understand the gravity of the controversy.

Oops, well, I don't believe that God predestines anyone to hell. That makes God a tyrannical despot, not a loving God who desires all men to be saved. If God judges people based on their works, how can He damn people to hell if He specifically creates people into hell? God "made him do it"!

No, Christianity believes that man is responsible for sin and for being condemned to hell, not God.


golfjack said:
If divine election is true for Gentles, as some major denominations teach, why go to church? Why witness? Why evangelize? If God has already deterrmined who is going to go to heaven and who is going to go to hell, why pray? Why read the Bible?

Because salvation into heaven is NOT guaranteed - only our initial justification based on faith. Beyond that, entering the Kingdom requires that we obey God's commandments and to grow in His graces. God desires all men be saved AND come to the knowledge of the truth. Thus, our sanctification is very important in the formula on entering the Kingdom of Heaven.


golfjack said:
If divine election is true, how can you say, God is love? How can the Holy write in John 3:16 that God so loved the world....if He is still going to send most of you to and everlasting hell? ( see Matt. 7:13-14).

God isn't "sending" anyone to hell. People send themselves there by not WANTING to be united with God.

golfjack said:
Divine election is a fact for some of the Jewish people who are a remnant according to the election of grace ( Rom. 11:5). Divine election simply is not for the Gentles.

Paul certainly would not write that to the Roman Gentile Christians!

Regards
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Jg. You never did answer my question about our recreated spirits being perfect. When we became believers, it was done instantaneously. Don't you get it? Why does the Book of Hebrews call us Holy, blameless, kingly priestly, and sanctified? My flesh certainly isn't holy. My mind isn't holy, and will not be until I get to heaven. In other words< god has done all He is going to do, by the new Birth. The rest is up to us. If I were to call myself and acholic, then I probably start drinking again. If I call myself a failure, then I would be a failure. When I say I, that is the real me, hideen man, or inward man. I just can't believe you don't get this. Probably because of your prejudice against Word of Faith. Like I said before, reformed thelogy is all wet and full of holes. But, when one has a pet doctrine, he has to fit in this doctrine into other scriptures to make one right.

All, I can say, you have a perfect right to call yourself a sinner. In my opinion, when you do that, you are living a defeated life.



May God bless, golfjack
golfjack,
Forgive me for not reading in depth this entire thread, but it seems like you and jg are saying the same thing, but weighted in a different area. If I may, I would like to ask you whether you have sinned since becoming born again? When you admit to being a sinner, what portion of you is the sinner, the flesh or the new creature? Are believers free from sin prior to the day of redemption? How many believers do you know that walk in the spirit 100% of the time every day of the week, year after year?
Wasn't Paul teaching us that the flesh is sold under sin, and as we walk in the flesh we will sin, but as we walk in the spirit we will not sin.

Personnally, I have been in churches that preach "do not, do not" and this manner of preaching was very good at the time that I heard it preached, but as in all things a balance must be reached. I would not be comfortable where the whole council of God wasn't preached. That means that as Paul taught, believers have two factions warring within their members, the flesh which is sold under sin, and the inward man which delights in the law of God. When we say, I, as a person, we must include our whole being, otherwise we are ignoring half of our true being.

I like how Paul ended up his statement concerning his flesh and his inward man warring. He was at his lowest point saying, "Oh wretched man, who is going to save me from this ole corpse"; and he answered himself with the highest acclaim possible. Gratitude for his Lord Jesus Christ when he said, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

The conclusion that I have in the matter is that you and jg are correct in that in the flesh we are sinners and in the inward man we serve the law of God.

Am I incorrect in this assessment?
Thanks.
 
reply

Fran. Read Romans 11:25-26. Then read Is. 59:20, 21; Is. 27:9. The church does not replace Israel.


May God bless, golfjack
 
Sorry jack
I have more than answered your questions. You in all likely hood did not read my post or skimmed through them. Like I said. Your lack of bible knowlege combined with WOF false theology has really blinded you. Do I need to break down the book of Hebrews for you as well?

I am really, really suprised at you.
I really don't know what else to say. I am guessing your bible does not have Romans 7 in it and 1 tim chapter 1. Its the only way I can see it and even then it is a stretch..



This and your baring false witness against me with this statement.
Fran. The problem Jg presents is that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.

Sorry Jack.
This is simply not true. Show where I have said and I quote ''that a person must have the assurance of salvation when they get to heaven.''
 
reply

Thank you Solo. You nailed it right in the head. Paul reminds us to renew our minds by the hearing and by the Word of God. The battlefield is is in our minds and flesh. My whole point was why would I call myself a sinner when I have the victory. Do I say I am a sinner who has the victory. Doesn't make sense to me.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Thank you Solo. You nailed it right in the head. Paul reminds us to renew our minds by the hearing and by the Word of God. The battlefield is is in our minds and flesh. My whole point was why would I call myself a sinner when I have the victory. Do I say I am a sinner who has the victory. Doesn't make sense to me.



May God bless, golfjack
Thanks for the quick post golfjack,

Could you answer the following questions. Your answers would clear up a lot on the misunderstanding that I believe exists in this thread between you and jg.
Thanks.

Have you sinned since becoming born again?

When you admit to being a sinner, what portion of you is the sinner, the flesh or the new creature?

Are believers free from sin prior to the day of redemption or are they still embattling the sinful flesh?

How many believers do you know that walk in the spirit 100% of the time every day of the week, year after year?

Wasn't Paul teaching us that the flesh is sold under sin, and as we walk in the flesh we will sin, but as we walk in the spirit we will not sin?
 
reply

Jg. I will match my Bible knowledge any day of the week. So you think Word of Faith Thelogy is false. It's pure Bible my friend. you need to learn how to operate in faith.




May God bless, Golfjack
 
reply

Solo, Of course I have sinned since I was born again. I admit that the flesh is the sinner. When the Bible says our redemption draweth nigh, it is referring to our bodies. Therefore, our flesh is not free from sin. Nobody walks in the Spirit 100%. Sometimes we give into temptation. You see, when the Bible says to workout our own salvation, it is referring to our soulish area, which leads to sin of the flesh. Of course if we walk in the flesh, we will sin, but I like what the Bible says about me. It has been said that it takes a believer about 20 years to get out of this world. I believe because of continuous sin, many will not finish their race, but will go to heaven. I have a favorite verse when I am tempted to sin, I confess I can do all things through Christ who strengthens and many other positive confessions that proceed out of our spirits and eventually become a reality in our lives. I guess, I am just a simple man of faith and don't complicate it.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Solo, Of course I have sinned since I was born again. I admit that the flesh is the sinner. When the Bible says our redemption draweth nigh, it is referring to our bodies. Therefore, our flesh is not free from sin. Nobody walks in the Spirit 100%. Sometimes we give into temptation. You see, when the Bible says to workout our own salvation, it is referring to our soulish area, which leads to sin of the flesh. Of course if we walk in the flesh, we will sin, but I like what the Bible says about me. It has been said that it takes a believer about 20 years to get out of this world. I believe because of continuous sin, many will not finish their race, but will go to heaven. I have a favorite verse when I am tempted to sin, I confess I can do all things through Christ who strengthens and many other positive confessions that proceed out of our spirits and eventually become a reality in our lives. I guess, I am just a simple man of faith and don't complicate it.



May God bless, golfjack
Thanks golfjack,
I appreciate your answers. I too am saved by God grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and when I put on incorruption and immortality with that new body, I will be in full awe of God almighty. Until then I see through a dim glass, but then I will see face to face.
Michael

PS There are not very many that understand the fullness of being born again. It is not just an assent to God's truth, but is in fact the putting on of the new creature in Christ Jesus. jg is a strong Christian brother, and I pray that all manner of temptation to sin against each other is dissuaded.
 
Back
Top