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Works, Reveals IF a Person is Saved or Not

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

God Loves the sinner but hates the sin.. We are all sinners living under the Grace of God. We ALL fall short and continue to fall short of His glory. We should and must continue to repent daily because we are sinners.

Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran. Read Romans 11:25-26. Then read Is. 59:20, 21; Is. 27:9. The church does not replace Israel.

Golfjack,

The Church has been in existence long before the Incarnation. The People of God initially consisted of the nation of Israel - but Paul tells us that it has expanded to include those who have been spiritually circumcised through the Spirit.

Regards
 
SputnikBoy said:
Oh, oh ...I'm disagreeing again. Paradise is synonymous with heaven and neither Jesus nor the thief made it to heaven that day. Jesus did, however, assure the thief that, on that day, his salvation was assured.
The thief had the assurance of salvation....BUT did not...go to heaven that day, or the days after.

He will go ....when....the resurrection of the Righteous occur....when Jesus Christ comes again, the 2nd time.

Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be".
 
Re: reply

francisdesales said:
Golfjack,

The Church has been in existence long before the Incarnation. The People of God initially consisted of the nation of Israel - but Paul tells us that it has expanded to include those who have been spiritually circumcised through the Spirit.

Regards
Not quite true. A good twist, but not accurate. The Roman Catholic Institution attempts to align the Jewish circumcision with the Roman Catholic infant baptism and Roman Catholic convert babtism as a mark of a member of the body of Christ instead of being born again with faith in Jesus Christ's work on the cross. The Roman Catholic institution attempts to align its Eucharist sacrafice, priests, canon laws, etc. with God's workings with the Israelites. They mark themselves well as Judaizers that taught false teachings as Paul warned the Galatians against.

Here are the similarities between the Roman Catholic doctrines with the Judaizers doctrines:

Judaizers

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Circumcision
3. Become a Jew
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Laver of Water
10. Dietary Regulations
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. Shew Bread
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Elders


Roman Catholicism

1. Belief in Jesus as Messiah and Son of God
2. Baptism
3. Become a Roman Catholic
4. Sacrificial System
5. Priests
6. High Priests
7. Altars
8. Feast Days
9. Font of Holy Water
10. Dietary Regulations (Until recently)
11. Candles
12. Incense
13. The Eucharist Wafer
14. Keep the Ten Commandments
15. Tradition of the Church Fathers
 
Re: reply

Solo said:
The Roman Catholic Institution attempts to align the Jewish circumcision with the Roman Catholic infant baptism and Roman Catholic convert babtism as a mark of a member of the body of Christ...

The Bible itself does the same thing.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:11-13

Circumcision is the sign of incorporation into Abraham's descendants, into the people of the covenant. It is a sign of submission to the Law and a sign that prefigures that "circumcision of Christ", which is Baptism (cf. CCC #527).
-----
The chosen people received from God distinctive signs and symbols that marked its liturgical life. These are no longer solely celebrations of cosmic cycles and social gestures, but signs of the covenant, symbols of God's mighty deeds for His people. Among these liturgical signs from the Old Covenant are circumcision, anointing and consecrating of kings and priests, laying on of hands, sacrifices, and above all, the Passover. The Church sees in these signs a prefiguring of the sacraments of the New Covenant.

In His preacing, the Lord Jesus often makes use of signs of creation to make known the mysteries of God. He performs healings and illustrates His preaching with physical signs or symbolic gestures. He gives new meaning to the deeds and signs of the Old Covenant, above all, to the Exodus and the Passover, for He Himself is the meaning of these signs.

Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of His Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven.

(CCC # 1150-1152)
----

In the Old Testament, God instituted an ordinance of circumcision as the normative way for bringing a male child into the Covenant (Gen 17:1-14) and this ritual symbolically stripped away the hardheartedness and obstinancy as well as symbolically showing one had entered into the covenant of God as part of His people:

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is]. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. He [is] thy praise, and he [is] thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen. Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude. Deut 10:12-22


And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. Deut 30:1-10

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28-29

And how does this "circumcision of the heart begin"?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6

Clearly, Scripture notes that the signs of the OT, in this case, circumcision, are replaced by the signs of the NT, Baptism. Both sacraments bring humans into the People of God. In both cases, the sign of the Covenant with God (and in both cases, parents on behalf of their children in many cases) begins one's life in God.

I am glad that you note that God's Work among His people continues, showing the continuity of His actions among the Jewish nation and then in the new dispensation, the universal Catholic Church... The OT was a shadow of the good things to come, pointing the way to the NT Covenant that Christ made with His people, those who believe in Him and obey His Word.

Regards
 
Re: reply

francisdesales said:
The Bible itself does the same thing.

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:11-13

Circumcision is the sign of incorporation into Abraham's descendants, into the people of the covenant. It is a sign of submission to the Law and a sign that prefigures that "circumcision of Christ", which is Baptism (cf. CCC #527).
-----
The chosen people received from God distinctive signs and symbols that marked its liturgical life. These are no longer solely celebrations of cosmic cycles and social gestures, but signs of the covenant, symbols of God's mighty deeds for His people. Among these liturgical signs from the Old Covenant are circumcision, anointing and consecrating of kings and priests, laying on of hands, sacrifices, and above all, the Passover. The Church sees in these signs a prefiguring of the sacraments of the New Covenant.

In His preacing, the Lord Jesus often makes use of signs of creation to make known the mysteries of God. He performs healings and illustrates His preaching with physical signs or symbolic gestures. He gives new meaning to the deeds and signs of the Old Covenant, above all, to the Exodus and the Passover, for He Himself is the meaning of these signs.

Since Pentecost, it is through the sacramental signs of His Church that the Holy Spirit carries on the work of sanctification. The sacraments of the Church do not abolish but purify and integrate all the richness of the signs and symbols of the cosmos and social life. Further, they fulfill the types and figures of the Old Covenant, signify and make actively present the salvation wrought by Christ, and prefigure and anticipate the glory of heaven.

(CCC # 1150-1152)
----

In the Old Testament, God instituted an ordinance of circumcision as the normative way for bringing a male child into the Covenant (Gen 17:1-14) and this ritual symbolically stripped away the hardheartedness and obstinancy as well as symbolically showing one had entered into the covenant of God as part of His people:

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is]. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, [even] you above all people, as [it is] this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. He [is] thy praise, and he [is] thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen. Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude. Deut 10:12-22


And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If [any] of thine be driven out unto the outmost [parts] of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. Deut 30:1-10

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. Rom 2:28-29

And how does this "circumcision of the heart begin"?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6

Clearly, Scripture notes that the signs of the OT, in this case, circumcision, are replaced by the signs of the NT, Baptism. Both sacraments bring humans into the People of God. In both cases, the sign of the Covenant with God (and in both cases, parents on behalf of their children in many cases) begins one's life in God.

I am glad that you note that God's Work among His people continues, showing the continuity of His actions among the Jewish nation and then in the new dispensation, the universal Catholic Church... The OT was a shadow of the good things to come, pointing the way to the NT Covenant that Christ made with His people, those who believe in Him and obey His Word.

Regards
You really have swallowed the lies of satan hook, line, and sinker. You really ought to concentrate on studying the Bible with God's help. The pope is screwing your perspective up.

You should have boldened this portion of the scripture that you quoted:

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Colossians 2:11-12

The Greek word translated Baptism is βαπτισματος and it means to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism.

You could have also studied this portion of scripture for an understanding of the truth as opposed to an apologetic of the Roman Catholic false teachings:
  • 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:18-22
Notice that the baptism is a like figure of the water in the flood of Noah, not that it put away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our salvation is dependent upon our faith in Jesus Christ, not in the water.
 
Solo said:
Our salvation is dependent upon our faith in Jesus Christ, not in the water.

To take it one step further, faith is the instrument where God transforms us through his merciful grace... I'll look forward to our converstation in the "Other" thread when I come back on Monday.

Peace
 
StoveBolts said:
To take it one step further, faith is the instrument where God transforms us through his merciful grace... I'll look forward to our converstation in the "Other" thread when I come back on Monday.

Peace
Where does the scripture say that faith is the instrument where God transforms us through his merciful grace?
 
Re: reply

Solo said:
You really have swallowed the lies of satan hook, line, and sinker. You really ought to concentrate on studying the Bible with God's help. The pope is screwing your perspective up.

No, I think you just have a difficult time answering questions that you can't answer because it throws your little pet theories out the window...

Does Col 2 make a parallelism between Baptism and Circumcision or not?

Regards
 
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