[_ Old Earth _] World-Views: Evolutionism and Biblical

[Barbarian]

From the Stone-yarder's link:

Many theories have been proven—tested—and are considered laws of science and physics.

This [statement] is profoundly ignorant of science. Theories are never "proven." Science isn't about logical certainty. We just get enough evidence to consider it settled, contingent on new evidence. And a theory is higher in confidence than a law in science. A theory is a well-tested idea with evidence to support it. A law is a statement of what scientists think will happen under certain circumstances. Laws predict things. Theories predict and explain things. Hence their greater usefulness. Kepler's laws described how the planets moved. Newton's Theory of Gravitation explained why they did, and therefore made the theory applicable to planets, stars, people, and an apple falling from a tree.

These proven (sic) disciplines of science have caused many of the world's Christians to assume that evolution is also true.

Directly observed is pretty hard to deny. This poor fellah is not only ignorant of science, he doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of Christian theology, either.

 

[Sparkey]

Grazer, you're link didn't work for me and appears broken. This can happen when an .jpg is moved in photobucket.

 

[Narwhalist]

I have always said that it's pretty hard to argue against something when you don't know anything about what you are arguing against.
Some folks have no idea what a theory is. They constantly confuse it with a hypothesis.
To be honest, when people argue from ignorance, they give rise to incorrect and damaging opinions of Christians. Atheists and other non-believers are given an opening to make Christians look bad. Then we are all lumped together and branded lunatics or worse.
Not to mention the damage it does to young Christians who go into the world and are made to look bad for believing in things that are obviously not correct.
Also for some reason, they are under the impression that we can't have a relationship with Jesus because our knowledge somehow clashes with what we believe.
My worldview is such that now I am revising it to see how and if evolution can answer some questions. I am now trying to see how Intelligent Design and evolution fit together, and so far have no problems. I am not a subscriber to life starting on it's own. It hasn't been proven scientifically, although they have tried. But even if someday someone is able to do it, I will still believe God designed us all, possibly using DNA coding as a method.
The point is don't get too attached to anything in the world view one has created for themselves, because if something happens then you lose faith. My worldview is in flux, but will always be God-centric. After all the greatest miracle ever was the creation of the universe. God bless you all.

 

[Stone-yarder]

Stone-yarder. Good article. Doesn't change anything. I am a firm believer in Intelligent Design. I believe every creature on earth has been designed by God. But the Bible doesn't speak of the method God used to design all the living creatures on earth. I still don't understand why you think evolution and belief in the Lord are mutually exclusive.
Life was started on this earth when God designed the first microorganisms. I believe all living creature's DNA were designed b God. If you know what DNA looks like, you know it looks very much like programming. God gave all living creatures generic diversity, and due to this genetic diversity when a species undergoes many subtle genetic changes it may not look like what it started with.
You're ignoring so many Bible verses (like Psalm 19.1-2) when you refuse to look at science, even though proof is staring you right in the face.
I have heard of so many young Christians who have lost their faith because when they see certain scientific discoveries, it makes them quesiton interpretations of the Bible like yours.
As for Adam and Eve, I believe they are who they are because Jesus spoke of them. But instead of being stubborn and adhering to an interpretation of the Bible that clashes with God's natural order, I try to find others that may satisfy both. After all, nature is God's creation and if you don't believe what science discovers about it, you are not believing in God's desire to teach you about nature.
Science is not perfect, and many times some theories are proven wrong or altered due to new discoveries.
So don't tell me I have to chose between science and God, because that is rather arrogant and presumes you know everything. If you refuse to believe in what you see, that is your prerogative. But you and nobody else can comment on my relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ, because of you do you are saying you know my heart and only God knows that.

I dont have an interpretation of the bible, I go by what it says. It says what it says. People who add millions of years to it are the ones re-interpreting it. Evolution(the whole theory) is a man made idea and is an absolute opposite of the Genesis account. Genesis is very clear on how God did it and how long it took him, the real question is do you beleive it? In all reality the evidence screams for a young earth. Is it possible you are looking at it from a worldview instead of a biblical veiw?

 

[Stone-yarder]

PART 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay88i3JRHXs

PART 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sacO_q_SLAA

 

[Grazer]

Grazer, you're link didn't work for me and appears broken. This can happen when an .jpg is moved in photobucket.

Thanks Sparrow working on it now

 

[Grazer]

I dont have an interpretation of the bible, I go by what it says. It says what it says. People who add millions of years to it are the ones re-interpreting it. Evolution(the whole theory) is a man made idea and is an absolute opposite of the Genesis account. Genesis is very clear on how God did it and how long it took him, the real question is do you beleive it? In all reality the evidence screams for a young earth. Is it possible you are looking at it from a worldview instead of a biblical veiw?

But what if genesis is not trying to teach us about science and/or history? What if that was never the authors intention and was never how it was taken at the time?

 

[Grazer]

 

[Stone-yarder]

But what if genesis is not trying to teach us about science and/or history? What if that was never the authors intention and was never how it was taken at the time?

God wrote Genesis 1 He was the only one there. And he wrote the rest of his word as well, who he used is really irrelavent. The author(GOD) and his intentions are very clear. You just seem to be having a real hard time accepting it.

 

[Grazer]

God wrote Genesis 1 He was the only one there. And he wrote the rest of his word as well, who he used is really irrelavent. The author(GOD) and his intentions are very clear. You just seem to be having a real hard time accepting it.

Oh they are clear and it has nothing to do with the how.

 

[Arch Angle]

what is the big deal with god doing threw evolution? I don't understand.

if you look at the data. God is probably "real'..

If you look at the data, it seems hedid it threw evolution.

isn't that wonderful?
That we knowwhat they didn't know, we are blessed.

 

[Stone-yarder]

Oh they are clear and it has nothing to do with the how.

He tells us how in Hebrews.
Hebrews 11:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Arch Angle]

He tells us how in Hebrews.
Hebrews 11:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

faith that what god showed us in the rock record is ok?

how's is that different from your faith in a book?

remember, we both believe in god and follow Christ. For me, it is about you telling me how god did it via a book and me telling you he how did it through what is shown in the rock record

 

[Narwhalist]

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
I'm not disputing this at all.
But this just says that God created all of this out of nothing. And that is what I tell atheists when I talk to them. It takes more faith to believe that the Universe was created from nothing by no one than the universe was created from nothing by someone and that someone is God.
But it tells nothing of how he made it, just that he made it. God commanded it, the big bang occurred and it was history. So it is open to interpretation how it was created.
But remembering that God desires for nature to teach us also, I come up with an interpretation that satisfies both, the Bible and the natural record.
Don't ignore Psalm 19.2 - The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day the pour forth speech; night after night they display their knowledge.
Notice it says the work of his hands. He created this, and enjoyed his creation, with his hands as a creator molds his creation.

 

[Arch Angle]

I point to quarks and leptons as evidence of hebrew 11:3.

 

[cupid dave]

what is the big deal with god doing threw evolution? I don't understand.

if you look at the data. God is probably "real'..

If you look at the data, it seems he did it threw evolution.

isn't that wonderful?
That we no what they didn't know, we are blessed.

Hurray....

Finally a sane response for Christians everywhere who want toemphasize that the Bible is an amazing and divinely revealing statement about the creation of the Real World we see now.

 

[Sparkey]

There is a record of a conversation that God had with a man who may have thought too highly of himself. But that does not seem the case. Perhaps he thought to highly of his knowledge? The Lord spoke to him in a pointed and express manner that demonstrates how we, as His clay are to remain content in our calling, not trying to speak more than we know. He spoke to that righteous man in a manner that startles me. "If the Lord speaks in that manner to this righteous man, how may I fare?"

The conversation starts with the Lord answering the man out of the whirlwind; the storm was brewing, the wind was blowing, and the Lord spoke,

“Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

How would you like to be greeted by the Lord in that way? We may recall the disciples, who were out there, on the sea of Galilee, in the storm, as the wind blew and the waves crashed against them, and they, many of them experienced fishermen, were deathly afraid and feared as though they were about to go down.

And then the Lord appeared, you know what happened, walking on water. They thought, "It's a ghost," they were frightened. The the Lord said, to those boys in that storm, "Be of good cheer. It is I. Fear not." He came to them in the storm. Have we not found the same? When things are tough, the Lord draws near and can answer in profound ways. Mark 6:45-52 and John 6:16-21

Well, the whirlwind was blowing as the Lord spoke out of the storm and answered Job. And the Lord said to Job,

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Then the Lord spoke sixty (60) questions to Job. He comes on the scene with question after question after question. "Gird up now thy loins like a man," Job was sitting there, on the ash heap, "Stand up, for I will demand thee, an answer for Me."

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth (vs. 4). Now wouldn't that be a great verse to have inscribed on the cover of every Geology book? A pause for a thought; this reminds me of the tour of the museum where the guide pointed to a dinosaur skeleton and said, "This brontosaurus is two million and six years old." One of the tourists paused, scratched his head and then asked, "How can you know with such precision that these bones are 2,000,000 and six years old? The guide paused and explained, "Well, I began working here 6 years ago, and they told me it was two million years old back then.

And you know we have all these facts and figures and ideas and theories and stuff, you see? Then the Lord shows up and says, "What do you really know, really?"

"Where where you, when I laid the foundations of the earth?"
"Declare, if thou hast understanding."

 

[Narwhalist]

It is true that compared to the Lord we know nothing.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth" - only God knew that I would be.
But we are learning, and that is what the Lord wants us to do. Psalm 97.6 - The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.
I am not saying we know all the answers, or trying to make it so I know so much. All I am saying is that the Bible and science need not clash and the answers I am finding and trying to find are only answers that people can learn. I will never learn or understand how God does anything, because he is omniscient and I am not. Heck, I don't know as much as a lot of people in this earth. But I try to understand what I do know. Besides it doesn't take much to understand and see what I've been saying.
But I do know some things because He has shown them to me.
So where was I when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth? I don't know, I will never know, and I don't feel that I have to know. But I can know and learn what a geology book has to teach and it doesn't have to clash with the Bible.
So, if I understand what you are trying to say, I think you're missing the point. Love the lord thy God with all your heart, soul and MIND, and the more I learn the closer I feel to Him.

 

[Sparkey]

To the one who says, "I don't know and I was not there," this is not a big debate issue. Those members who have been around long enough are familiar with this from me. You're free. I don't mind when you act that way. My only thing about it comes when various discussions spin out of control and we begin to see familiar (regrettable) patterns emerge. Then I have to take out my Mod hat and knife and start editing or warning and that. But as far as an individual belief (and expression of that belief) goes? This is the Christianity and Science forum, it is a place where things like evolution and creation may be (actually is encouraged to be) discussed.

 

[cupid dave]

It is true that compared to the Lord we know nothing.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth" - only God knew that I would be.
But we are learning, and that is what the Lord wants us to do. Psalm 97.6 - The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.
I am not saying we know all the answers, or trying to make it so I know so much.

All I am saying is that the Bible and science need not clash...

....and the answers I am finding and trying to find are only answers that people can learn. I will never learn or understand how God does anything, because he is omniscient and I am not. Heck, I don't know as much as a lot of people in this earth. But I try to understand what I do know. Besides it doesn't take much to understand and see what I've been saying.
But I do know some things because He has shown them to me.
So where was I when the Lord laid the foundations of the earth? I don't know, I will never know, and I don't feel that I have to know.

But I can know and learn what a geology book has to teach and it doesn't have to clash with the Bible.
So, if I understand what you are trying to say, I think you're missing the point. Love the lord thy God with all your heart, soul and MIND, and the more I learn the closer I feel to Him.

You are right.
Christians like you are needed to explain this to other Christians, because the Christian message of importance does not pend upon how Genesis had been explained by the former church fathers.

I know well meaning Christians think they do God a service by attacking science which shows Genesis could not be understood the way it has been explained since the Middle Ages and be called the truth.
This idea that by shear numbers and stubborn insistance, Science will lose has a record now that beliues such stradegy.

The church has half the attendance on Sunday while Bill Maher and the comedians have found an audience and the college campuses have locked the preachers out.
The hand writing is on the wall.

It says, "ToE, ToE, N, Genesis.

The RCC remembers the Reformation that came in the wake of its own idenical decisiuon to oppose the truth found in Empirical Science.
That RCC church had violated what Paul said concerning the old Platonian and Aristotlian "science" that the RCC had used to support their Bible interpretations and sermons.
Even with the ancient astrologically based wisdoms of the phuiloso[hical descriptions of the world on their side, the RCC was cut in half by the Empirical Knowledge that all could see in that Age just past.

The Pope has accepted ToE, because in his archives, he remembers.
The Protestant Fundamentals did not have that same experience, yet.

Your open mindedness to re-read Genesis, Geology, and all the academics that will support a different christian explanation that coincides with what we now know is just what the churches need to hear today.