Worship The One God Or The One Mediator??

[Terral]

Greetings to All:

This Thread is dedicated to Debate on whether we should worship the “one God†or the “one Mediator†Christ Jesus of 1 Timothy 2:5. My hypothesis is that we are to “Worship God†(Revelation 22:9b) ‘through’ “Christ Jesusâ€Â, as our Intercessor (Romans 8:34) and our “one Mediator.†1Timothy 2:5.

If my premise is correct, then some are transforming Jesus Christ (#2) into “The Almighty†(#1); thereby transforming God’s Son into their golden calf of IDOLATRY.

My hypothesis above is based upon the truth that the three witnesses of “The Almighty†(Revelation 1:8) are listed in line #1 with the three witnesses of God’s Son (Matthew 28:19) in line #2 and the three witnesses of this Creation in line #3. I agree with the trinitarians on the ‘model’ of their doctrine, but we disagree on the names of the three witnesses that should be plugged into that formula.

---------------
1. “The Almighty†(Spirit) = God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood), God Who Was (water) = “One God †(1Timothy 2:5).

2. God’s Son = (Blood) Father (spirit), Son (blood), Holy Spirit (water) = “One Mediator†(1Timothy 2:5).

3. Adam = (Water) Heavens (spirit), Heaven (blood) and Earth (water) = Creation.
---------------

“For there is “one God,†and “one Mediator†also between God AND men, the MChrist Jesus . . .†1 Timothy 2:5.

Should the sons of God be worshipping the “One God†or the “One Mediator†of the same verse?

GL in the Debate.

In Christ,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

I may kick myself for doing this but........

I find some of your positions puzzling. I can see you somewhat rightly divide the word. I can see you have no final authority. But your view on Christ is what puzzles me.

1. Do you believe that according to 1 Tim 3:16 And that God was manifest in the flesh?

2. To whom was Isaiah referring to in Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God?

Thanks

 

[Imagican]

You know guys, Christ rebuked one who called Him 'good', stating that 'there is ONLY ONE that is 'good', the FATHER in heaven. Guess that's not good enough for some though.

As plain an answer that can be offered is from the mouth of Christ Himself. He was asked how one should pray. His answer? There's your answer. I refuse to doubt Christ over the words of men.

The words of God and His Son are enough for me without all the 'theology' created by man to 'take away' from either Father or Son. I refuse to belittle either in my insistence in a complete understanding of their relationship. I accept what They have offered and will not read anything 'extra' into it.

 

[AVBunyan]

You know guys, Christ rebuked one who called Him 'good', stating that 'there is ONLY ONE that is 'good', the FATHER in heaven. Guess that's not good enough for some though.

I do not believe it was meant to be a rebuke.

AV paraphrase...

Jesus - "Do you know why you called me good? Because only God is good and you are right, I am good which makes me God manifest in the flesh."

God bless 8-)

 

[yesha]

This Thread is dedicated to Debate on whether we should worship the “one God†or the “one Mediator†Christ Jesus of 1 Timothy 2:5. My hypothesis is that we are to “Worship God†(Revelation 22:9b) ‘through’ “Christ Jesusâ€Â, as our Intercessor (Romans 8:34) and our “one Mediator.†1Timothy 2:5.

I would agree to this.

If my premise is correct, then some are transforming Jesus Christ (#2) into “The Almighty†(#1); thereby transforming God’s Son into their golden calf of IDOLATRY.

only if they worship what was created inplace of the creator.

The rest isn't worth comment.

 

[wavy]

You know guys, Christ rebuked one who called Him 'good', stating that 'there is ONLY ONE that is 'good', the FATHER in heaven. Guess that's not good enough for some though.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

[mutzrein]

Good point! Must have been made by a good person.

 

[Terral]

Jesus Christ Is God's Only Begotten Son. John 3:16.

Hi AV:

My days are numbered here AV, so talk fast. : 0 ).

AV >> I may kick myself for doing this but........ I find some of your positions puzzling. I can see you somewhat rightly divide the word. I can see you have no final authority. But your view on Christ is what puzzles me. Those professing Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†are counted among Idolaters around here. I guess John the Baptist (John 1:34) and Peter (Matthew 16:16) and Christ Himself (John 10:36, Revelation 2:18) are not good enough to post on this Board. That is funny.

1. Do you believe that according to 1 Tim 3:16 And that God was manifest in the flesh?

Absolutely. “God was IN Christ†(2 Corinthians 5:19) reconciling the world to Himself. The fullness of Deity (God) dwells in Christ in bodily form.

“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.†Colossians 2:9.

AV >> 2. To whom was Isaiah referring to in Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God?

John the Baptist is the “messenger†preparing the way and Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†(John 1:34) that he testified about. Surely you realize that “No one has seen God at any time . . .â€Â. John 1:18. What did John the Baptist say?

"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." John 1:34.

What part of John’s testimony of ‘the truth’ (John 5:33) would you like for me to explain? Christ has a question for you all:

"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? John 10:35-36.

Well? Do you say Christ is blaspheming, because He said “I am the Son of God?†Are you going to point your fingers at John the Baptist AND The Son of God AND Terral for saying Jesus Christ is the Son of God? When did Jesus Christ change into becoming His own God and Father? Revelation 1:6?? Someone please explain how that works, when Scripture says Jesus Christ never changes. Hebrews 13:8. Then explain why Jesus Christ calls Himself the “Son of God†(Revelation 2:18) after Calvary? Scripture says Jesus Christ is at the ‘right hand of God’ (Romans 8:34) making intercession for BELIEVERS right now. Who exactly do you believe Jesus Christ is at the right hand of, IF He is truly your “one God?â€Â

Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†seven days a week and those transforming Him into His own God and Father are Idolaters. What does Paul say?

“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.†1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

Scripture is plain and simple on this topic and many here are breaking Scripture to transform the “Son of God†into “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6). If speaking ‘the truth’ with John the Baptist and everyone else is a banning offense, then Terral will be out of here this day for defending the DEITY OF GOD.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:34, Rev. 2:18

Hi Imagican:

Thank you for writing. I have to believe you are not counted among those complaining to the Mods about Terral disrupting this place with all of this “Jesus is the Son of God†business. Heh . . . that is truly funny. I stand with wet feet in the Jordan River right beside John the Baptist saying the EXACT same thing and the membership here thinks Terral has a demon. Haaaa! That is funny too. Think carefully what it means when members are banned from this place for agreeing with all the New Testament witnesses that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.†John 1:34, Matthew 16:16, Mark 1:1, Romans 1:4, Revelation 2:18, etc..

Imagican >> You know guys, Christ rebuked one who called Him 'good', stating that 'there is ONLY ONE that is 'good', the FATHER in heaven. Guess that's not good enough for some though.

We agree. Here is the situation in a nutshell, because Terral has been here before on other Boards: The Board creators and many among the membership have transformed the “Son of God†into their idol of worship and into His Own “God and Father†(Revelation 1:6). The concept that “Christ Jesus†is the “one Mediator†BETWEEN God and men (1 Timothy 2:5) is not good enough for them. The fact that all of the witnesses in the NT say Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†means NOTHING. The fact that “No one has seen God at ANY TIME . . .,†(John 1:18) means NOTHING. There is nothing more important than their Idolatry and anyone who agrees that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†becomes ‘their’ Idolater. Scripture says that God sent His “Only Begotten Son†into this world (John 3:16) but THEY DO NOT CARE, because nothing will stand in their way of transforming the “Son of God†into their idol of worship. Any talk about God AND His Only Begotten Son is disruptive to their “Jesus is God Himself†dogma and what the Bible says means NOTHING. The fact is that the One the “Son of God†calls “My God†(John 20:17, Revelation 3:2, Revelation 3:12) will not allow Terral to continue presenting ‘His Truth’ for a band of Idolaters replacing Him with His Only Begotten Son. Especially when the ultimatum is that Terral agree to replace the Son of God with His own God and Father and become an active participant in the same Idolatry. That will not happen in a million million years, because Terral knows “My God†intimately AND His “Only Begotten Son.â€Â

Imagican >> As plain an answer that can be offered is from the mouth of Christ Himself. He was asked how one should pray. His answer? There's your answer. I refuse to doubt Christ over the words of men.

The words of men rule this place and the powers and authorities of Ephesians 6:12 do not care to have their presence acknowledged and exposed by the Light in Terral’s testimony. Terral must have his head cut off like John the Baptist for saying that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.†John 1:34. That places the membership here in Herod’s kingdom . . .

Imagican >> The words of God and His Son are enough for me without all the 'theology' created by man to 'take away' from either Father or Son. I refuse to belittle either in my insistence in a complete understanding of their relationship. I accept what They have offered and will no read anything 'extra' into it.

Then your days are numbered here also. You had better jump on the “Jesus is God†bandwagon and forget what Scripture says, or you will become their Idolater just like Terral.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Jesus Christ Is God's Only Begotten Son. John 3:16.

1.My days are numbered here AV, so talk fast. : 0 ).

2. Absolutely. “God was IN Christ†(2 Corinthians 5:19) reconciling the world to Himself. The fullness of Deity (God) dwells in Christ in bodily form.

3. John the Baptist is the “messenger†preparing the way and Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†(John 1:34) that he testified about.

1. Yea - I bet you've been around - tough trying to make a name for yourself with so much competition. Just goes to show that though one can write and draw out pretty charts means that all that "knowledge and facts" can never make it to the heart.

2. The verse said "God was manifest in the flesh". You ran away back to your pet doctrine.

3. The messenger was prepraring the ways for the LORD who was also the son of God.

It appears you have a misuderstaninding of the trinity.

I wish you well - somewhere else.

 

[Terral]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:34, Rev. 2:18

Hi AV:

AV >> 1. Yea - I bet you've been around - tough trying to make a name for yourself with so much competition.

Is this any kind of reply to what is posted above? No. Instead you take this opportunity to present your “Jesus is God†case to write ‘put down’ comments to Terral. Shame on you.

AV >> Just goes to show that though one can write and draw out pretty charts means that all that "knowledge and facts" can never make it to the heart.

This is another ‘put down’ that does not belong in these threads. If you have a problem with anything posted, then simply “quote that†and present your case using Scripture.

AV >> 2. The verse said "God was manifest in the flesh". You ran away back to your pet doctrine.

No sir. The Received Text says “God,†but the Critical Text says “who.†Either way “God was IN Christ†(2 Corinthians 5:19) reconciling the world to Himself. That is the pet doctrine of nobody, but exactly what God says in His Word. If you had an argument for something else, then you would have quoted my errors and offered your case for something else. Scripture says Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.†John 1:34. John the Baptist and Peter (Matthew 16:16) and Christ Himself (John 10:36, Revelation 2:18) are your heretics also.

AV >> 3. The messenger was prepraring the ways for the LORD who was also the son of God. It appears you have a misuderstaninding of the trinity.

Where is your argument for your trinity? To say someone has a misunderstanding is a case for nothing. What part of “one God†(1 Timothy 2:5) AND ALSO “one Mediator†(Christ Jesus) are you having trouble understanding? Please explain for everyone how you transform the ‘one Mediator’ into the ‘one God’ of the same verse, then perhaps we will have something to debate.

AV >> I wish you well - somewhere else.

Since your arguments cannot withstand the test of Debate, then your only avenue is to complain to the Mods and have those professing that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†removed from your presence. We cannot have anyone recognizing “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) as the “one God†(1 Timothy 2:5). Others might also come to realize that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world to save sinners and we do not want anyone recognizing Jesus Christ as the “Only Begotten Son OF GOD.†John 3:18. What does Paul say?

“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.†1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

What would you do with members like John the Baptist, Peter and Christ Himself who agree with Paul that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†(Romans 1:4)? When everyone in the New Testament is your heretic, then those three bent witnesses are pointing straight back at you. The funny part is that your error will not become evident, until you and your fateful Mods are standing at the Judgment wishing you had listened to those you ban from this Board. Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1) is most certainly the “Son of God†(Revelation 2:18) and those placing Him the position of “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) are the true Idolaters.

Cutting off those who speak ‘the truth’ (John 5:33) that Jesus Christ is the “Son of God†from this Board is God Himself passing judgment upon you. Your Idolatry in replacing “My God†(John 20:17) with His Only Begotten Son and willingness to remove “the truth’ from your midst has disqualified the fine members of this Board from hearing ‘the truth’ from those who know God AND His Only Begotten Son. Your Mods will deal with Terral ruthlessly and “My God†will deal with you more so. GL with that . . .

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

Terrah - May I suggest a new course of study for you so when you move on to the next forum?

1. Take a Webster’s 1828 Dictionary and write out the definitions for the following words:
Grace, longsuffering, patience, charity, humility and love.

2. Then run them through that King James Bible that you seem to be against and see what God says about such things and pray for application.

3. Then throw out your charts and start over.

By the way - your post - "The Received Text says “God,†but the Critical Text says “who.â€Â
You had to correct the AV1611 to get that - you just can't stick with the text can you? I've seen your kind before.
I stick with the text - I am many things but I am not a bible corrector.

I have spent way too much time with you. Why would I even bother discussing anything with you?

What little discussions I've had with you have ended. Feel like a winner now?

 

[Terral]

Jesus Christ Is The Son Of God. John 1:34, Rev. 2:18.

Hi AV:

Thank you for writing. Nothing you wrote has any application to the topic of this thread. Again you used your opportunity to present your “Jesus is God†case to paste your personal attacks against Terral.

AV >> What little discussions I've had with you have ended. Feel like a winner now?

The readers are no nearer to seeing your “Jesus is God†doctrine from Scripture than when you first began posting to this thread. My Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:34. Eventually someone will get around to explaining what makes Terral and John the Baptist your heretics. I see Jesus Christ professing to be the “Son of God†(John 10:36, Revelation 2:18) from His own mouth. Does that make Him your heretic also? Where is this line of witnesses proclaiming that Jesus Christ is God? I cannot find one in my Bible; can you? If so, then why not present that instead of this grumbling? Can you make any case at all for worshipping the ‘one Mediator’ or 1 Timothy 2:5 or not? This side says we are to “Worship God†(Revelation 22:9 b), ‘through’ our “one Mediator†Christ Jesus, just like Paul teaches throughout all his Epistles. What does Scripture say?

“First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.†Romans 1:8.

Terral says that we are to thank my God ‘through’ Jesus Christ for you all. What is the difference between my testimony and Scripture? NONE.

“. . . on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.†Romans 2:16.

Terral says God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. How is that possible of Christ Jesus = God? Mark says,

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.†Mark 1:1.

Terral says Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.†How does that differ from Scripture?

“God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.†1 Corinthians 1:9.

God = “one God.†Jesus Chrst = Son of God = “one Mediator.†1 Timothy 2:5.

Someone please correct the error in my testimony using Scripture.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[hybrid]

Hi Terral, going back to the thread topic ...

Some scriptures that says it's okay to worship Jesus.
Matt 2:11
1 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matt 14:32-33
32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matt 28:9
9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matt 28:17
7 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:51-52
51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

John 9:38
38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.


Finally.... Both (the Father and the Son) can be worship ...
Rev 5:13-14
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped

 

[hybrid]

Re: Jesus Christ Is The Son Of God. John 1:34, Rev. 2:18.

Someone please correct the error in my testimony using Scripture.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

asserting that Christ JEsus is the son of god is fine.

the real problem is how one understood what the phrase " son of god" meant when applied to jesus.

the phrase son of god can be used to angels and men too.

is jesus an angel or a man.

or was he the "only begotten" son of the living god who was at the bosom of god his father and was sent to earth to die for us? this statement was also scriptural you know.


.

 

[Imagican]

Ok guys. I don't believe that this question should be 'that' difficult to answer if one 'knows' the answer.

The seed placed in Mary was that of God. NOW, did this 'seed' perform the function that 'a seed' is planted for? In other words, if the 'seed' was OF GOD, was there a 'human' egg to which it fertilized? If so, by answering 'yes' you have answered the debate over 'trinity'. Now, the question is whether you are willing the accept the answer.

 

[Terral]

"Worship God" (Rev. 22:9b) THROUGH Christ Jesus (1

Hi Hybrid:

Thank you for writing on this seemingly controversial topic.

Hybrid >> Hi Terral, going back to the thread topic ... Some scriptures that says it's okay to worship Jesus. Matt 2:11 1 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped* him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. (snip)

You are confusing the Greek term ‘proskuneo*’ (#4352) with the term ‘sebomai’ (#4576) used exclusively in cases of worshipping ‘Deity.’ Even Cornelius ‘worships’ (‘proskuneo’) before Peter in Acts 10:25, which has NOTHING to do with worshipping him as ‘Deity.’ The definition of ‘proskuneo’ looks like this:

--------------

Proskuneo >> http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -1388.html

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

1) to the Jewish high priests

2) to God

3) to Christ

4) to heavenly beings

5) to demons

----------------

We agree that everyone shall ‘worship’ (bow and give homage) the “Son of God,†but God’s children will “worship†NO ONE but “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) as “Deity.â€Â

Hybrid >> Finally.... Both (the Father and the Son) can be worship ... Rev 5:13-14 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" 14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Everyone here is bowing and giving homage (‘proskuneo’) and not worshipping (‘sebomai’) anyone as Deity.

Hybrid >> God so far as He reveals Himself is called LOGOS, and LOGOS so far as He reveals God is called God.

God is with The Word in John 1:2. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14). "NO ONE has seen God at ANY TIME . . .". John 1:18. Many have seen (John 1:34) the “Son of God.†Did God send His Only Begotten Son into the world in your Bible? John 3:16? Christ’s “My God†(John 20:17) did the sending and Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.†John 1:34. What does Christ say?

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; WE have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God (God's Word talking), for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

“During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God AND was going back to God, got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.†John 13:2-4.

The question then becomes this: "Does your testimony concerning God and His Only Begotten Son agree 100 percent with every Word from the mouth of God?" Terral intends to stand at the Judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10) all alone to be judged over whether his testimony agrees with every syllable from the mouth of Almighty God concerning His Only Begotten Son. My testimony is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (John 1:34, Revelation 2:18) and the Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14) sent forth from AND returning to His God and Father (Revelation 1:6). My knee shall bend before the Son of God like that of every oth son of God (Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:27, etc.) and join Him in worshipping (‘sebomai’) “His God and Father†as “MY GOD†(Revelation 3:2, Revelation 3:12).

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[Imagican]

Terral,

No, my friend, I have NEVER, to my recollection, recommended ANYONE be banned or removed from this forum. I have pointed out, once, that I thought the UR was 'not allowed' here, but as far as 'anything else', I thought that this was a 'Christian' forum, not a 'Catholic' forum.

I contend that 'trinity' IS a Catholic doctrine that many Protestants have chosen to accept as 'their doctrine' also. I don't hold this 'against' anyone. I 'have' tried to offer the 'truth' of 'trinity', but have NEVER tried to condemn anyone that accepts it.

I have NEVER done anything other than 'try' and offer the Word, simply that. Without ALL the 'man-made' ideas associated with MOST Christian denominations. The churches have perpetuated MANY falsehoods over the centuries and persecuted or murdered many that disagreed with them. Nothing new or surprising in that man has 'always' insisted upon 'doing things' THEIR way instead of following or obeying God. His 'own' people refused to follow 'His will' so it's no surprise that man has found himself in the position of his 'modern' day churches that have continued to insist on doing it 'their' way instead of HIS. All I have offered is 'THIS' through His Word. Some understand, but the 'pride' of most, and perpetuation of falsehood through the churches, quite regularly, won't even allow them to consider the 'truth'.

And Terral, I don't think that it is your 'views' that has rubbed 'many' the wrong way, it's more your authority. If you were to state much that you do without such 'obvious' understanding, most would simply debate your points and 'be done with it'. The fact that your actual 'knowledge' is through study and understanding and you offer it with 'authority' scares those that aren't use to it. I, for one, appreciate those that offer understanding beyond the limits of 'man's' understanding. The Word IS THE WORD and there is NOTHING else like it.

 

[Terral]

This Thread Is All About Defending The Deity OF GOD

Hi Imagician:

Thank you for writing on this thread.

Imagician >> Ok guys. I don't believe that this question should be 'that' difficult to answer if one 'knows' the answer.

We agree. However, the way different members ‘interpret’ Scripture is brought out by the way they seek to answer this question. The Opening Post deals exclusively with the “one God†AND the “one Mediator†of 1 Timothy 2:5. That would be a nice place to begin your explanation. Otherwise you are writing on the topic of another thread . . .

Imagician >> The seed placed in Mary was that of God.

If you are going to write on your opinions apart from quoting Scripture, then we have nothing to debate. What does Scripture say on the topic you are seeking to explain?

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David . . . The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.†Luke 1:32 + Luke 1:35.

Why do you remove the “Son of†from God’s Word to say something else that is not from the mouth of God? I cannot give true context to the verses you might use to support your statement, because you failed to offer any in your post.

Imagician >> NOW, did this 'seed' perform the function that 'a seed' is planted for?

Now what? How about if we use God’s Word to prove our cases, instead of depending on seeds and functions and plantings.

Imagician >> In other words, if the 'seed' was OF GOD, was there a 'human' egg to which it fertilized?

If you are going to ask questions, then obviously you do not know the answers. What does Paul say?

“Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.†Philippians 2:8.

Before you begin jumping up and down having a fit, remember that Terral only quoted Paul, who understood this topic better than anyone here. Then I want to introduce you to a riddle offered by Christ Himself and you can offer us your reply. Do you realize that only two verses of the New Testament contain the two terms “born†and “women†together? NASB? Christ teaches an important truth about John the Baptist, saying,

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (also in Luke 7:28).

Has the subtle truth of Christ’s statement here begun to sink into your own consciousness? If Christ Himself was ‘born of women’ (gennetos = #1084; gune = #1135), then John the Baptist is ‘greater than Christ,’ OR Christ just make Himself into a LIAR. The opposing view says that Christ was indeed ‘born of a woman’ (Galatians 4:4), BUT, Paul is taking about something else entirely and does NOT say “gennetos gune†like Christ did above. Instead Paul says that God’s Son was “ginomai (#1096) ek gune†or “made of a woman.†Satan used this term to tempt Christ, saying

"If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become* bread." Matthew 4:3.

This is the same word used in John 1:3, not once or twice, but four times to describe what was ‘made.’

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being* through Him, and apart from Him nothing came* into being* that has come into being*.†John 1:1-3.

Ask yourself if ANYTHING was ‘born of women’ in calling all things of this universe into being, OR did God call everything into being through His Word and for Him? Colossians 1:16-17? If Jesus Christ was ‘born’ like John the Baptist from the joining of Zacharias and Elizabeth, then He was in as much need of a Savior as everyone else. Scripture says that the Son of God conceived in Mary’s womb was “of the Holy Spirit.†Matthew 1:20. That is what made Jesus Christ the “Son OF GOD†(Luke 1:35) in the first place. The seed inside the woman was ‘made’ by the overlapping of the Holy Spirit AND the ‘power from on High’ (Luke 1:35 = Father) joining as One in her womb, which gave Christ the ‘appearance as a man,’ so that He could fulfill all things written in the Law, Prophets and Psalms (Luke 24:44). Our “one God†is INFINITE (1 Kings 8:27) and mere men are MORTAL. Christ Jesus qualifies to be our “one Mediator†(1 Timothy 2:5) because the Son of God is something IN BETWEEN. That is what Paul means by teaching that the Son is the “IMAGE†of the Invisible God (Colossians 1:15), which explains the ‘relationship’ between God AND “The Word.†John 1:2.

Imagician >> If so, by answering 'yes' you have answered the debate over 'trinity'. Now, the question is whether you are willing the accept the answer.

First of all, your post began with a false assumption and headed south from there. If this question had a simple answer, then we would have nothing to debate. Offering your opinions in the place of a solid argument based on Scripture is never a wise avenue to take, even on a very simple topic. The focus of this thread is NOT about your belief or disbelief in any trinity doctrine. Please go back to the Opening Post and read the thing again. The fact is that nobody here even has access to God apart from the intercessory work of Christ Jesus at the ‘right hand of God’ (Romans 8:34). Christ Jesus is the “one Mediator†or the channel (medium of communication) THROUGH which you have confident access (Ephesians 3:12) to His God and Father. Transforming your “one Mediator†into the “one God†(His God and Father) of the same verse is what Scripture commonly calls “IDOLATRY,†and this bible thumper knows the difference . . .

If the Authorities of this Board in their wisdom reach the decison to pull the plug on Terral for defending the Deity OF GOD (His God and Father), then so be it. Jesus Christ is most certainly the “Son of God†(John 1:34) and He never changes (Hebrews 13:8). That makes Him the Son of God on Monday and Tuesday and every other day of the week; now and forever. However, that decision places John the Baptist (John 1:34), Peter (Matthew 16:16) and Christ Himself (John 10:36, Revelation 2:18) among your very long list of heretics.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[Terral]

You Are Preaching To The Choir : 0 )

Hi Imagician:

Thank you for writing, even if this is kind of off the topic. Perhaps your statements here will help clarify things.

Imagician >> No, my friend, I have NEVER, to my recollection, recommended ANYONE be banned or removed from this forum. I have pointed out, once, that I thought the UR was 'not allowed' here, but as far as 'anything else', I thought that this was a 'Christian' forum, not a 'Catholic' forum.

First of all, my testimony is under attack from certain Mods in this forum that cannot be named. I have no clue what a UR might be, unless that may be a reference to the Universal Reconciliation notes from the sticky announcements. We agree that this is a Christian forum where many denominations are represented.

Imagician >> I contend that 'trinity' IS a Catholic doctrine that many Protestants have chosen to accept as 'their doctrine' also. I don't hold this 'against' anyone. I 'have' tried to offer the 'truth' of 'trinity', but have NEVER tried to condemn anyone that accepts it.

Any references to ‘condemnation’ you can derive from my use of terms is from specific Mods and the Authorities running this Board to whom I wish to submit. If they say to “Jump!,†then I am among the first to say “How High?†on the way up. However, there is no way I can pass the “Deity OF GOD†around to anyone but the “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) of our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1) the “Son of God†(Revelation 2:18). Terral knows how to count to “one God†(1 Timothy 2:5) and to “one Mediator†Christ Jesus of the same verse. God sent His Only Begotten Son, who had glory with the Father before the world was (John 17:5) into this universe to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16) and we MUST distinguish between God AND the “Only Begotten Son of God.†John 3:18. The “one God the Father†(1 Corinthians 8:6) that Christ Himself calls “MY GOD†(John 20:17, Revelation 3:2, Revelation 3:12) is “MY GOD†also and trying to force Terral into moving someone else into the “ONE GOD†position is NOT AN OPTION. If we are going to play that game then just go ahead and slit my throat now, because again, this bible thumper knows the difference and my time is better spent elsewhere under governing Authorities and their members who ‘are’ worthy.

Imagician >> I have NEVER done anything other than 'try' and offer the Word, simply that. Without ALL the 'man-made' ideas associated with MOST Christian denominations. The churches have perpetuated MANY falsehoods over the centuries and persecuted or murdered many that disagreed with them.

Heh . . . You are preaching to the choir, Imagician . . . This is why I ask folks to please “quote me >>†to give their statements context. You are getting this impression, because we are not permitted to speak about disciplinary actions by the powers that be. So you misinterpreted a statement I made above and believed I was pointing fingers at you. My bad. : 0 ).

Imagician >> Nothing new or surprising in that man has 'always' insisted upon 'doing things' THEIR way instead of following or obeying God. His 'own' people refused to follow 'His will' so it's no surprise that man has found himself in the position of his 'modern' day churches that have continued to insist on doing it 'their' way instead of HIS. All I have offered is 'THIS' through His Word. Some understand, but the 'pride' of most, and perpetuation of falsehood through the churches, quite regularly, won't even allow them to consider the 'truth'.

Again, you are preaching to the choir. Perhaps we have had similar experiences from years of debating Scripture on these Christian Forums.

Imagician >> And Terral, I don't think that it is your 'views' that has rubbed 'many' the wrong way, it's more your authority.

We agree. Paul says,

“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.†Titus 2:15.

How does one speak and exhort and reprove with ALL AUTHORITY without speaking with all authority? Please forgive, but we are commanded to seek approval from God and not men (Galatians 1:10). Since I was doing this through the US Postal Service with scholars around the world LONG before anyone invented the internet, then perhaps the ‘authority’ in my words speaks a bit louder than someone who began debating Scripture yesterday. If you want to launch big ships, then you go where the water is deep . . . Anything worth doing right requires 100 percent of your effort, or you should be doing something else.

Imagician >> If you were to state much that you do without such 'obvious' understanding, most would simply debate your points and 'be done with it'. The fact that your actual 'knowledge' is through study and understanding and you offer it with 'authority' scares those that aren't use to it.

We agree again. All I can say is that one man with the ‘knowledge’ of the truth is worth 1000 having ‘faith’ in the same thing, but one with the ‘wisdom’ of God is a 1000 times greater than he. God’s Word is Living AND Active (Hebrews 4:12 = my signature verse below) and becomes a Living Oracle for those who have unlocked “God’s wisdom in a Mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.†1 Corinthians 2:7. Do you realize yet why God’s Word is “shaper than any two-edged sword†(Hebrews 4:12)? The answer is that those trying to cut down the one carrying ‘the truth’ are indeed cut themselves and squarely IN TWO. Swinging God’s Sword like a Mighty Battle Ax with great authority leaves those opposing scattered all over the battlefield in thousands and ten thousands. God’s mighty men know no other way to wield the power of God through the authority of His Word. When this soldier of Christ came upon one of those mighty men in his youth, then he sat at his (or her) feet and learned everything possible until someone greater came along. The greatest among us make the best tutors in Christ (1 Corinthians 4:15) and to disregard them is the folly of men.

Imagician >> I, for one, appreciate those that offer understanding beyond the limits of 'man's' understanding. The Word IS THE WORD and there is NOTHING else like it.

Nothing is beyond the reach of understanding, if you know the right question to ask the right tutor in Christ Jesus. Remember that Mark, Luke and Paul never saw the completed ‘perfect’ (1 Corinthians 13:10) will of God set down in our 66 books of Scripture. The duty of reconciling every word from the mouth of God has fallen upon us mortal men and women like the membership of this fine Board. There are a series of keys to unlock the hidden wisdom of God concealed in plain sight, but one requires the man of wisdom to point them out. That is why God gave the church evangelists, pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4:11) and Paul speaks of having ‘countless tutors IN Christ’ (1 Corinthians 4:15). Therefore, you are not looking at the testimony of one man, but the combined testimony of a lifetime of carefully selected tutors responsible for bringing him to stature you see today. Heh . . . We agree that there is NOTHING else like having ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral