Would all Preterists Please Check In Here

[parousia70]

My issue is your intentions to join my site.. I can argue the docterine forever.

Oh, I'm over wanting to join your site.

My game plan is to bring new commers Christ,

Prove it.
How does this thread you started to belittle Preterists fit that Game Plan exactly?

I believe your involvement will interfere with that.

Proving my initial point.
Your fear of Preterism and preterists is forcing your hand.

 

[parousia70]

I am sorry if you are under the impression that its my opinion, because its not. I took that verse directly out of the Word. I am also not the creator of this thought, its a well known principle in Christianity.

It obviously ends when this world ends. Until then.....it repeats.

Yet Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33).

 

[Cornelius]

I am sorry if you are under the impression that its my opinion, because its not. I took that verse directly out of the Word. I am also not the creator of this thought, its a well known principle in Christianity.

It obviously ends when this world ends. Until then.....it repeats.

Yet Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33).

I am going to assume that you are not trying to be difficult on purpose.

This will all end when Jesus returns on the clouds at the first resurrection/last trumpet in Revelation.The Bible calls it "the last days", meaning they are ........the last.....and so the repeating will stop.

 

[parousia70]

I am sorry if you are under the impression that its my opinion, because its not. I took that verse directly out of the Word. I am also not the creator of this thought, its a well known principle in Christianity.

It obviously ends when this world ends. Until then.....it repeats.

Yet Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33).

I am going to assume that you are not trying to be difficult on purpose.

I don't mean to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand where you draw the line.
I'm sorry those scriptures I presented and my assertions as to their meaning are difficult for you.

This will all end when Jesus returns on the clouds at the first resurrection/last trumpet in Revelation.The Bible calls it "the last days", meaning they are ........the last.....and so the repeating will stop.

What of Hebrews 1:1-2?
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Here, the Writer of Hebrews called the generation of Christ's earthly ministry, pre AND post-cross, "These last days".

If those were "the last days", as scripture cites, shouldn't the repeating have stopped then?
(if we are to assume you are correct about the repeating stopping in "the last days")

 

[Cornelius]

I am not going to try to convince you of what I believe brother. That is between you and the Lord.

 

[parousia70]

I am not going to try to convince you of what I believe brother. That is between you and the Lord.

Awww c'mon Corn....If you really didn't want to convince anyone about what you believe, you would have never chimed in on this thread in the first place :yes

Tell us.....What of Hebrews 1:1-2?

How does that scripture not CLEARLY contradict your statement that the Biblical "Last Days" have not yet arrived?

 

[Cornelius]

I am not going to try to convince you of what I believe brother. That is between you and the Lord.

Awww c'mon Corn....If you really didn't want to convince anyone about what you believe, you would have never chimed in on this thread in the first place :yes

Tell us.....What of Hebrews 1:1-2?

How does that scripture not CLEARLY contradict your statement that the Biblical "Last Days" have not yet arrived?

I have no interest in convincing anybody . I share what I believe and you are welcome to share what you believe .

As to your question: There are more than one age spoken of and Paul knows that they were in the end of one such an age. Notice that he speaks , using the plural : ends and ages They were about to enter one such an "end of an age" (another was to come in our time)

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Hebrews 1

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,

2 hath at the end of these days (That would be the end of the age he refers to in Corinthians. THESE, because he was pointing to THOSE days, whereas the Bible also tells us of latter days (our days) ) spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

 

[parousia70]

As to your question: There are more than one age spoken of and Paul knows that they were in the end of one such an age.

Correct, but more specifically, the Bible speaks of only two ages, post flood.
one that was called "this age" and another that was called "the age to come".

Notice that he speaks , using the plural : ends and ages They were about to enter one such an "end of an age"

an end of an age they all called "this age" which was to be followed, according to scripture, by "the age to come".
The Birth of Christ came at the end of the biblical "this age".....

(another was to come in our time).....(... whereas the Bible also tells us of latter days (our days))

Care to elaborate on this notion of yours?
Can you provide the scripture that teaches about an end to our current age, as separate and distinct from the end of the Age that Jesus and the apostles were born into and spoke about the end of, which, as you rightly assert, has already come to an end?

How did Jesus and the apostles know that the end of the ages they were experiencing were NOT the Biblical "Latter Days".... far as I can tell, they ALL believed and taught they were one and the same!

To that end, perhaps you could elaborate about when the age paul and the writer of hebrews were speaking of ended, and when did that age begin?

I have my ideas.... I'm curious how far apart we actually are.

 

[Cornelius]

LOL brother, you ask a lot of questions in one post !

I will try too understand what you are asking, because some of your questions does not make sense. I think it is because I might be taken some things for granted , but in reality you do not understand them as I do.

I will work on a Biblical answer later. First , just from a quick read, I cannot say that I understand why you say there are only two ages (pre-flood and post flood) What would be the relevance relating to the gospel? Why would Paul mention it? Unless !! you see that last age as Paul's age ? Then your statement would make sense (not that I agree with that, but it would make sense to me why you say it )

I believe that there are a few ages. The age of the Old Covenant, which came to a close when Jesus came.Then the age of the New Covenant church started, which was marked by the former rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This age came to a close 70 AD when the church went into tribulation and the temple was destroyed. This happened 40 years after Jesus (40 as we know is the time of testing )

I think where we might not see things the same, would be that prophecy has more than one fulfillment. First in the letter and then in the spirit. Like the lamb in Egypt, was first a real lamb, then became the Lamb of God. And Israel that enacted the gospel message in their trip through the desert and now we get to do the same thing in the spirit.

Jesus first came in a fleshly body (Son of man) which was from the linage of David. He died and was resurrected so that He can now have a spiritual Body of Christ. First one , then the fulfillment. God is making sons. So we see the first small church filled with the former rain being scattered through the world through persecution in 70AD. That brought the first church age (Paul's age) to a close.

We are now busy rising out of the ashes of that first apostasy . The last age of the "ends of the ages" is upon us now. Its going to be a repeat , but this time world wide.

I can back all of this by Scripture, but it will take too long, so here is a brief description of what is about to happen :

Christ (in His Body of Christ) has been coming since the time of Paul.Jesus has never stopped coming in His people . More and more (the Bible likens it to the rising of the sun/Son to the perfect day)
This coming "epiphany" is before the Parousia, (as you know,parousia is the physical coming of the Lord ). I am talking of the spiritual coming IN US.

Now this epiphany is the WRONG kind of coming according to the modern church. We see this mistake = the mistake of the Jewish spiritual leaders at the time of Jesus. They too expected the Messiah to "come in a different manner".....this time, the church will repeat this mistake too.


The coming of the Lord in the epiphany is described by Jesus in John 16, when they ask Him when they will see Him again.Jesus then tells them a perfect replica of Rev 12, of the woman on the moon. He tells them how the church will see Him again when they produce Him again through the epiphany. Just like a woman who is pregnant, they believer is "pregnant " with Christ in us the hope of glory

You and I receive the Word (which Matthew tells us is the Seed)and that Seed is obviously Christ (John1:1) and that Seed produces after its own kind. It produces Christ in us ! That is , if we believe this and believe Gal 2:20 and live according to 2 Cor 3:18 ! During this time we undergoing Eph 6 (until we all come to unity of the faith.....the perfect man..Christ ) If we understand this, we will manifest Him and will not be ashamed at His Parousia. (like Paul prayed)

Now we are at a time that is prophetically spoken of as the time of the end of the last age, when the sons of God (Romans) will come forth (Rev12, Rev 14:4 ). God did not leave us alone in this time and left the enemy in power. He raised up His own "weapon" against the world: its called "Christ in us the hope of glory "

All of this is spoken of in type throughout the Old Testament and in the New too. Moses, Joshua, Gideon, Mordecai , David, Elijah, are but a few that are types of what Rev 14:4 describes as the 144000 and which Rev 12 calls "the man child" and which is ultimately Jesus as an epiphany in His people.

Moses is one of the clearest examples. But this teaching is huge : God used the whole Bible to tell us about it. I cannot do this in one post LOL

blessings
your brother in Christ
Cornelius

 

[Drew]

Yet Scripture states that the world will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33).

I agree with your take - the world will indeed not be done away with. And I would think that this text alone, from Romans 8, would overturn the notion that God is going to destroy His creation:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Why is the world in slavery to corruption? Obviously because of the fall. Will God do away with this corrupt world? Paul says "no" here in Romans 8 - He will redeem it and heal it, liberate it from its corruption, not destroy it.

Even apart from the specific texts that you provide, there is a more "general" argument that can be used. God created the world and declared it to be "very good". If we think that God is going to toss the present material order into the trash can, we are more or less saying that God has "failed" - His good creation cannot be rescued and has to be done away with.

The restoration (and not the destruction) of the material world is the ultimate vindication of the goodness of creation.

 

[parousia70]

I cannot say that I understand why you say there are only two ages (pre-flood and post flood)

You misunderstood. I apologize if I was not more clear. I'll try to be more clear here:

In Scripture, there are only 2 ages spoken of AFTER THE FLOOD.
The 1st age AFTER THE FLOOD is called in scripture "THIS AGE"
The 2nd age AFTER THE FLOOD, is called in scripture "THE AGE TO COME"

That's it. No parenthesis, no 3rd or 4th or 5th age AFTER THE FLOOD.
Only 2.
"This Age" and "The age to come"

The scriptural age called "This age" was the age Jesus and the apostles were born into, and lived in "the last days" of. It came to it's firey end, as prophesied, on time, in that very "last days" generation in 70AD.

The scriptural "Age to come" which immediatly followed is the age of the EVERLASTING Gospel, which you and I currently reside in, and it is, by definition, an EVERLASTING age.

What would be the relevance relating to the gospel?

The Gospel, which SOLE PURPOSE is to call sinners into salvation, is EVERLASTING.
An end to this current gospel age, as you seem to be arguing for, would render an end to the purpose of the Gospel, which scripture clearly calls "everlasting".

The age of the Old Covenant, which came to a close when Jesus came.Then the age of the New Covenant church started, which was marked by the former rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This age came to a close 70 AD when the church went into tribulation and the temple was destroyed. This happened 40 years after Jesus (40 as we know is the time of testing )

Interesting.
What event are you claiming was the end of the old covenant age?
Jesus Birth? His Baptism? The Cross? The resurrection? The Ascencion? Pentacost?

I think where we might not see things the same, would be that prophecy has more than one fulfillment. First in the letter and then in the spirit. Like the lamb in Egypt, was first a real lamb, then became the Lamb of God.

While I find that to be a very wild hermeneutic, It is quite clear that your ideas of “multiple fulfillments are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again as you have asserted (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

The O.T. prophets did not believe or teach that the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. As I mentioned before, Is calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn forshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).

The "hermenutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermenutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES" that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.

Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.

So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermenutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!

Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).

 

[Cornelius]

While I find that to be a very wild hermeneutic, It is quite clear that your ideas of “multiple fulfillments are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again as you have asserted (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

.

First let me say that I do enjoy talking to you, because we can in fact HAVE a conversation I am so tired of the forums, because they all have such a bad attitude towards those of different opinion.

I am in the middle of a hectic work week, and I have guests, so its difficult to answer all your points. So I chose one major point . I want to show you why I say that Jesus is pointing forward to an even greater fulfillment. Why I believe that He is coming IN His body , even now, with the eventual manifestation (epiphany) I spoke about.

Two scriptures tell us that Jesus is the sign and not the fulfillment. (I can hear the gasps LOL ) We therefor have to find out what He is a sign for .

Here is the NT mention of Him being a 'sign"

Luk 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against;

Now in the Old Testament, Mary's virgin birth is also called a "sign" (in my understanding she is the type for the church, which at this moment carries the SEED of the Word like a virgin (Rev14:4)(Rev 12)(John 16) and those who are following Jesus is in a sense His "mother" . This too is confirmed by Jesus here: Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. So the "mother" will produce the fruit (Matthew, parable of the sower) which is Christ.

Here is the OT reference the the sign :Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

A sign points to the final destination. The final destination is Christ manifesting in the "Body of Christ" (Surely that is why God chose to that name for the believers and not the "Body of John, or Peter". No, its "The Body of Christ" because the sign mentions Immanuel, which is "God with us" which is exactly what the Body of Christ is, when Christ manifests in us )

blessing
Cornelius

 

[veteran]

What Preterists miss is that God uses history as a prophectic tool:

Whatever has happened before will happen [again]. Whatever has been done before will be done [again]. There is nothing new under the sun.
Eccl 1:9

Paul also speaks of the end of ages (plural) . 70 AD was just such an end of one age and now we are in the other end of the last age.We are in the bigger repeat now.Preterists see only what has happened (yes it did happen like that !) but they do not see that God repeats history, so they get stuck in the one event.

That's a good witness Cornelius.

I don't have as much patience with the Preterist traditions, because it's such a silly idea. And the idea of partial Preterism is even more silly. Why? Because the base idea of 'preter' means what is past. So how can belief that all prophecy is fulfilled, EXCEPT certain prophecies about the resurrection and Christ's second coming be associated with the word 'preter' (what is past)?

Full Preterists need to face up to the fact that they choose to believe this world as it exists today is all there is to expect of Christ's Kingdom. That's what it means to latch onto the idea of Full Preterism. And does God's Word agree with that? Of course not, because that automatically means there is no literal great white throne judgment and destruction of the wicked in the "lake of fire" (Rev.20), of which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles often warned all believers, which also is prophecy. And if no future lake of fire prophecy is believed to be literal, then that means no literal destruction of the wicked, and wickedness will always exist. That's kind of like oriental philosophy, Ying/Yang, good needs evil to exist, etc.

Rom 8:23-25
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
(KJV)

 

[Drew]

I don't have as much patience with the Preterist traditions, because it's such a silly idea. And the idea of partial Preterism is even more silly. Why? Because the base idea of 'preter' means what is past. So how can belief that all prophecy is fulfilled, EXCEPT certain prophecies about the resurrection and Christ's second coming be associated with the word 'preter' (what is past)?

This is not a valid reason to reject either preterism or partial preterism. Just because the word "preter" means "that which is past" does not mean that the term "preterist" or "partial preterist" is not a meaningful way to denote the view that many of the prophecies, often held to be unfulfilled, have actually already been fulfilled. It is just a name, after all. Let's say that the choice of the name "preterist" is a tad misleading. Well, then perhaps a new name should be chosen. But the choice of a specific name does not invalidate the belief system itself.

 

[MimilovesBibi]

I don't have as much patience with the Preterist traditions, because it's such a silly idea. And the idea of partial Preterism is even more silly. Why? Because the base idea of 'preter' means what is past. So how can belief that all prophecy is fulfilled, EXCEPT certain prophecies about the resurrection and Christ's second coming be associated with the word 'preter' (what is past)?

This is not a valid reason to reject either preterism or partial preterism. Just because the word "preter" means "that which is past" does not mean that the term "preterist" or "partial preterist" is not a meaningful way to denote the view that many of the prophecies, often held to be unfulfilled, have yet to be fulfilled. It is just a name, after all. Let's say that the choice of the name "preterist" is a tad misleading. Well, then perhaps a new name should be chosen. But the choice of a specific name does not invalidate the belief system itself.

That is why I hate label's............... :D

 

[Cornelius]

I don't have as much patience with the Preterist traditions, because it's such a silly idea.

Dear veteran, if I may say this: Its when we call each other's ideas "silly" that communication stops. The only thing we then achieve is that we have shut a door. So anything you might share in future to any preterist who reads this, will be met with that closed door.

On forums we see this all the time. I really think we can communicate better. I am really sorry for even having to point this out, because in doing so, I most probably would create anger or resentment in you and that is not my intention either .

I can tell you something about preterist and that they have a better view of what in fact HAS been fulfilled, where others are confused about it. Where I mostly differ from them is not on what they say has happened, but that preterism's flaw is just that they have not realized that history repeats and that some things have a still greater fulfillment.

Once a preterist sees this, they will be ahead of those who are now telling them they are wrong, because they already have more insight into one aspect of the Word than others.

No offense meant to you brother, but I think we are able to just talk about things without getting personal
blessings
C

 

[veteran]

No offense taken Cornelius.

Yet I will never agree that it's OK for anyone to just believe whatever they want to believe and still claim to be Christian.

The matter goes a lot deeper than terms like Preterism. It's not difficult to recognize Bible prophecy that was clearly fulfilled as already being past. So why come up with a new term like Preterist, etc., to simply describe a prophetic event that was history? The real reason, and the very thing which eludes many of our brethren about this seminary term thing, is that when one latches onto terms like Preterism, Futurism, etc., then whatever the false prophets devise to later INCLUDE within the term, that is then fed to the believer also. And before they've realized it, they're accepting ideas that run directly counter to sound Christian Doctrine per The Bible, just because they've determined to dwell within a certain seminary position.

One such example is the resurrection of the dead. The Bible gives very specific details as to what it is, and when it is, enough detail that we can know it is still a future prophetic event, excepting Christ's Resurrection. So when was the very first time in Christian history that Christians were taught the resurrection is past? Can that idea be established as Christian Doctrine among the early Church, among Christ's Apostles? No. What can we say then, since the early Church didn't have that doctrine, that they didn't understand what God's Word taught them, nor even what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught the disciples of the early Church?

Now we can... find Christian Doctrine from Apostle Paul where he rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus for teaching the falsehood that the resurrection was past already (2 Timothy 2). And none of the early Church fathers I've read disagreed with Apostle Paul's rebuke on the matter of teaching the resurrection is past.

1 Cor 15:19
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(KJV)

What did Paul mean with the above verse in relation to the resurrection? If our Hope in Christ Jesus is ONLY in this life we have today, then we are of all men most miserable. Why would Paul say that? It's because he understood the difference between this world and the glory of the world to come, that God's Word makes many detailed distinctions between the two. Believing the resurrection is already past, like Full Preterists are taught to believe, means their Hope in Christ is ONLY of this life today. That because the resurrection is about the glory of the world to come, a time we all are supposed to be still waiting for. It's about the change of our flesh corruptible body to the incorruptible "spiritual body" that Paul taught in the 1 Corinthians 15 chapter. The details of the resurrection he gave there is hard linked to that literal body change.

So no, I will not give false ideas like Preterism quarter, and say it's simply just another Christian Doctrine. If Full Preterism would agree to drop its disqualifying doctrines, like the false teaching of the resurrection being past, and also the false idea that Christ's return is past, then I might agree with it as Christian Doctrine from The Bible. But I still wouldn't use it simply as a term to describe a certain prophecy being history. I'd simply say a prophecy was fulfilled at x time, and was history, keeping it simple.

 

[Cornelius]

The Gospel, which SOLE PURPOSE is to call sinners into salvation, is EVERLASTING.
An end to this current gospel age, as you seem to be arguing for, would render an end to the purpose of the Gospel, which scripture clearly calls "everlasting".

Dear brother, that is not the sole purpose of the Gospel. God's purpose throughout the history of man, has been to produce sons as Paul tells us in Romans
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.

Without sounding disrespectful, but this planet is a "Jesus-factory" where God is producing sons through His Word.Mat 13:24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: (The word seed here is "sperma" ) This is because the Word of God is like seed, that reproduce after its own kind.

The production process is the following: The believer dies to self (Gal 2:20) then receives the implanted Word into their hearts. God sends tribulation to test that Word , some fall away but some actually produce a 100 fold crop (Read parable of the sower) The others that make it, have a minimum crop of 30 fold (no lower number is mentioned) then 60 fold. 100 Fold is manifesting Christ. This group is spoken of in Rev 14:4 (Moses is a type for them, so are David, Mordecai , Joshua, Gideon, Isaiah and others. )
The production of sons are likened to climbing a mountain )like Moses did. (Read Hebrews," we have not come to a mount that can be touched" ......) Like Moses we climb the mountain (Kingdom of God) and at the top we find God Who gives us the Word (Moses and the Tables of stone, also in Hebrew "The Two Witnesses" ! ) the Word comes down to the people, who cannot touch the mountain in fear of death (Our flesh cannot climb this mountain, it must die to self. Jesus said, if you do not take up your cross, you CANNOT be my disciple: meaning: no death to self, no salvation, o climbing of the mountain) The Word brings glory, Moses has a shiny face.A similar type here is Jesus (type for the man child in Rev 12) is on the mountain with Peter (30) (Hope) James (60) (faith)and John (100) (Love) Jesus is on top of a .....mountain......He too shines , but more than Moses. Moses is there with Elijah (Two witnesses)

As we go up the mountain, we loose more and more of ourselves and we become more and more like Jesus. That happens to all who submit to the Word (which is God, John 1 ) The Word overtakes them , until they have no lie in their mouths (Rev 14:4) because they are not in agreement with God and can walk together with Him (How shall two walk together less they are in agreement? )

When the last outpouring of the Holy Spirit happens in the beginning of the Tribulation, those who have believed this and have been found to be dead to self: The angel of death will pass over them, because they have been partaking of the passover Lamb. They ate the legs (they walk as Christ), the ate the head (mind of Christ) and all the inner parts (heart of Christ), they have gone through the Red Sea (Baptims=death to self) and has followed the Pillar of Fire (Holy Spirit) they have been to the mountain and they have gone through the wilderness , where they have learned to trust in the promises. Now they can enter the promise(d) Land, where they will find REST (Hebrews)

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest (PHANEROO not PAROUSIA) what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested,(Phaneroo) we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

So when Christ is Phaneroo, those who have climbed the mountain, shall be like Him.

The creation is waiting for the revelation of the sons of God.



I know this will not make sense to many, but even-though I have not given too many scriptures, I can provide them Much of this is shown by studying the types and shadows and the ALL agree with what I have written,
blessings
C

 

[Cornelius]

All this made me realize that we all believe in either one of two gospels !

We either believe that Jesus only brought us "Fire-insurance" against going to Hell and His only purpose is to get us to heaven.

or

We believe the Gospel has power NOW. Not only in heaven.We believe Christ in us, is in us for a reason NOW. We believe that Jesus took the curse away NOW. We believe that we have an inheritance in Christ, where all the promises are YES (IN Him). We believe that Christ must manifest in us on this planet, we believe in holiness without which no one shall see the Lord. We believe in sanctification . This gospel allows us to rule over the curse. This planet is our training ground, where God is raising up sons, not just getting them to heaven, but moulding them , through death to self, into the very image of His Son Jesus.
In this Gospel, we believe we must bear fruit, the fruit = Christ.

We should all know which gospel we believe in, because only one of them has eternity with God as the destination.

 

[veteran]

That thinking doesn't really work, because it's an attempt to separate The Gospel from The Salvation Plan God's Word has long revealed about events to come upon this earth to end this world, and the destruction of the wicked, and His saints inheriting this earth forever. And why is God going to cleanse the inhabitants off this earth once more, but this last time by His consuming fire? Because of this...

Rev 18:2-5
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(KJV)


Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)

And here's an OT detail of what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were teaching from about the end of this earth age by God's consuming fire, burning the inhabitants off the earth...

Isa 24:1-23
1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

Those two Isaiah 24:13-14 verses are about His elect that are different from the haughty ones of the earth.

15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
(KJV)

The next chapter of Isaiah 25 continues that Message, and covers the time of the resurrection of the dead where Apostle Paul was preaching about all being changed on the "last trump", and death being swallowed up in victory per 1 Corinthians 15.

So it is not just a matter of whether or not our Lord Jesus covers our sin by Faith, and thus protects us from God's coming judgment upon the earth, for we can be sure He will protect His own as He has promised. It is also a matter of serving Him while this earth age is still established, taking His Gospel to all nations. Even in many Scriptures, like the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation Christ's servants have been forewarned that this world is not His Kingdom established on earth, for it is clear per the Scripture that He is going to bring a fire upon the earth to destroy this time we're still in today.

So those who are busy preaching His Kingdom being manifested on earth today while disregarding the many conditions like the above Scripture, and conditions like His future de facto in Person reign on earth with His saints, are in reality denying much of His written Word, and have gone their own way against Him.
.