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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Would all Preterists Please Check In Here
- Thread starter nonbelieverforums
- Start date
The meaning of Isaiah's name is what? Yah has saved (or Yah is Salvation). The Book of Isaiah is a Book about God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. It's just that it's among Old Testament Books.
It is great error to omit the events of prophecy given there concerning God's Plan of Salvation, which include the coming destruction of this earth age and of the rebellious, which means what connection to The Gospel of Jesus Christ? That event is PART of The Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Here's a simply analogy of what that means. Hypothetically, if The Gospel of Jesus Christ is compared to a bicycle that's in pieces and needs to come together, what happens if just one wheel, or the handle bars, or chain, etc., was left off? It would not fulfill its function as a bicycle. Likewise with The Gospel per God's Word, leaving out Scripture about the coming end of today's earth age by fire, "the heavens and the earth, which are now" which Peter taught in 2 Pet.3 from the OT prophets, that would be like leaving out an important part of the bicycle.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ includes more than our Lord's first coming to die on the cross for those who believe. It includes the whole Salvation Plan which God gave His servants to write down in The Bible from Genesis through Revelation.
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It is great error to omit the events of prophecy given there concerning God's Plan of Salvation, which include the coming destruction of this earth age and of the rebellious, which means what connection to The Gospel of Jesus Christ? That event is PART of The Gospel of Jesus Christ!
Here's a simply analogy of what that means. Hypothetically, if The Gospel of Jesus Christ is compared to a bicycle that's in pieces and needs to come together, what happens if just one wheel, or the handle bars, or chain, etc., was left off? It would not fulfill its function as a bicycle. Likewise with The Gospel per God's Word, leaving out Scripture about the coming end of today's earth age by fire, "the heavens and the earth, which are now" which Peter taught in 2 Pet.3 from the OT prophets, that would be like leaving out an important part of the bicycle.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ includes more than our Lord's first coming to die on the cross for those who believe. It includes the whole Salvation Plan which God gave His servants to write down in The Bible from Genesis through Revelation.
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Its a way to open a discussion brother. My motivation is not just to talk, but I have serious concerns. To just post the concerns do not work, because people avoid them. So in this way, we have a start to what hopefully can turn out to be profitable.
The Bible has very clear teaching on what the whole and true Gospel is. The problem is that Christianity has been taken over by the other "gospel" . THIS is something that view actually believe, purely because ,most people sincerely believe they cannot possibly be part of a deception. (Like all deceived, how do they know they are deceived, when indeed they are !)
I have never heard the true gospel being preached in any church that I have attended in my life. Now that may sound to be impossible, but its true. For thirty years I went to church and for thirty years, the other gospel was preached to me and I , like all the rest, just sat there taking it all in and submitting to it. I believed , like all the rest, that I was safe and saved. I saw no power in the church and was told that it left a long time ago. I rested in my ignorance with all the rest, who did the same. Safe in our group and safe because we thought that being so many, that deception could not be found among us. So many could not possible be deceived together. Surely my dear beloved pastor who loved the Lord with all his heart would guide us in truth ! He was such a lovely man. He passed away while he was marching for Jesus. He died right there in the street while declaring his faith publicly. Surely such a man would only bring truth to me ?! Or did he?
When I eventually tired of religion and started questioning WHY there was no power, and when I finally figured that just maybe something was not right: I went to God and asked !
The answer blew me away.
C
The Bible has very clear teaching on what the whole and true Gospel is. The problem is that Christianity has been taken over by the other "gospel" . THIS is something that view actually believe, purely because ,most people sincerely believe they cannot possibly be part of a deception. (Like all deceived, how do they know they are deceived, when indeed they are !)
I have never heard the true gospel being preached in any church that I have attended in my life. Now that may sound to be impossible, but its true. For thirty years I went to church and for thirty years, the other gospel was preached to me and I , like all the rest, just sat there taking it all in and submitting to it. I believed , like all the rest, that I was safe and saved. I saw no power in the church and was told that it left a long time ago. I rested in my ignorance with all the rest, who did the same. Safe in our group and safe because we thought that being so many, that deception could not be found among us. So many could not possible be deceived together. Surely my dear beloved pastor who loved the Lord with all his heart would guide us in truth ! He was such a lovely man. He passed away while he was marching for Jesus. He died right there in the street while declaring his faith publicly. Surely such a man would only bring truth to me ?! Or did he?
When I eventually tired of religion and started questioning WHY there was no power, and when I finally figured that just maybe something was not right: I went to God and asked !
The answer blew me away.
C
parousia70
Member
veteran said:
Rev 3:3 's "Thief's Coming" was promised by the enthroned, Glorified Christ to take place in the 1st century.
Why is it difficult for you to recognize The Promise of Christ as clear enough evidence?
As I mentioned before, the writers of scripture have a range of uses for the term "resurrection." The scriptures use the word to speak of Israel's national restorations/victories (Isa 26:13-14,19-20; Ez 37), it is also used to describe Christ Himself, even our own personal salvation, baptism, the transfer of departed souls from the Old Testament Hades (Heb. sheol) into God's heaven, as well as the final Human state.
Your assertions testify very clearly that the most overlooked application of the term "resurrection" pertains to the removal and transfer of the Old Testament dead ones from Hades into God's transcendent heaven--a major New Covenant shift which occurred during the first century. In OT times, the righteous dead did not ascend into heaven, but were kept in Hades due to the absence of a covenant sacrifice that cleansed them fully. Christ himself went to this Hades at his death (Acts 2:27,31), before ascending to heaven.
The Bible, and therefore preterism, asserts that this resurrection of the OT saints out of Hades was synonymous with the destruction of the OT Temple.
Long before the Old Testament dead ones exited Hades at the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, Hymenaeus and Philetus had begun teaching that the resurrection of the dead ones in Hades had already taken place. This error of timing was a damnable Judaizing heresy akin to all those who argued that salvation came through the Old Testament sacrifices and Moses, not Christ.
To grasp the seriousness of this timing error, we must recall that St. Paul's teaching linked the resurrection of the OT dead out of Hades to the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple system (2 Thess 2:1-10; cf. Matt 24:15). This linkage was crucial for one reason: it placed the victory over death and hades outside of the Old Covenant era and Temple system. In saying that the dead had achived their victory while the Old system stood, Hymenaeus and Philetus were in league with the Judaizers who falsely taught that salvation came by keeping the Law covenant of Moses.
Absolutely. My Hope in Christ is in Gods Eternal Heaven as well as this life. Isn't yours?
Our readers can see that I have just demonstrated otherwise.
parousia70
Member
Cornelius said:
I don't know who told you that, but you were told wrong.
Eph 3:20-21
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
To say the Church has no power today is to say Christ Jesus has no power today.
Such is untenable.
parousia70 said:
Brother, I agree that the gospel comes WITH power. I live this and believe it , daily. God's Word is the only truth and on that we can stand and see His power in every situation. God moves when we are weak. When we are weak, we rest in His power and He brings it every time.
blessings
C
parousia70
Member
Cornelius said:
according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
In the Church, is the Power and Glory of Christ, forever and ever.
parousia70
Member
Cornelius said:
And The Church is the pillar of of that truth:
1Tim 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
A rejection of the power, authority and truth of the Church is a rejection of the power, authority and truth of Christ.
Again, such is untenable.
parousia70
Member
Cornelius said:
So, how does that square with your comment here?
Vic C.
Member
Hi Para,
I miss your old avatar.
There is a growing group of believers that believe the church age is over, meaning that Christian denominations are dead and God no longer uses them for HIS glory. They are corrupt and no longer teach the true Gospel.
They believe God is now calling people out of these "churches". This is textbook Harold Camping teachings. Oh, the SDA as well as other sects, teach this also.
Now, that may be true with some denoms (that is, teaching corrupt doctrine) but I truely believe not all are corrupt and that God uses whomever HE chooses, inside and outside of churches.
I miss your old avatar.
There is a growing group of believers that believe the church age is over, meaning that Christian denominations are dead and God no longer uses them for HIS glory. They are corrupt and no longer teach the true Gospel.
They believe God is now calling people out of these "churches". This is textbook Harold Camping teachings. Oh, the SDA as well as other sects, teach this also.Now, that may be true with some denoms (that is, teaching corrupt doctrine) but I truely believe not all are corrupt and that God uses whomever HE chooses, inside and outside of churches.
parousia70 said:
Strange, can't find anywhere in my Bible that says Christ's second coming would happen in the 1st century A.D. Nor can you. So why do you latch onto doctrines of men that lie and say Christ's second coming is past, when God has given you the events to watch which reveal His return is yet future?
The Isaiah 26:14 is one of those OT Scriptures where the KJV translators translated the word Rephaim to 'dead'. It's the word "deceased" in that Isaiah verse. In case you're not aware, the Rephaim was a name used for the 'giants'. That verse is saying they will never rise, never be resurrected. Verses 19-20 ARE about the resurrection of the dead, the subject of John 5. So is Ezekiel 37. The only case difference between all those references you gave is the one of Isaiah 26:14 about the Rephaim (giants).
And to cement what timing that resurrection in Isaiah 26:19-20 is for, The LORD gave this last verse...
Isa 26:21
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(KJV)
That's about the time of God's judgment upon the WHOLE EARTH, the end of this earth age. Has the earth disclosed all her blood yet today? No, for that's about the wicked and the murders they do. Has that been disclosed yet today? No, the wicked are still doing murder, and even think they've gotten by with it. When will that be disclosed though, and by Whom? By Christ at His second coming.
But what you've shown those here by misinterpreting those Bible references, is that you cannot even recognize a simple event in God's Word like murder being disclosed in final, but instead favor the agenda of men you've latched onto, and put God's Word on a shelf.
Your assertions testify your great abuse of the word resurrection, showing your ideas about it are a long way from how God's Word defines it. What of those who came out of their graves when Christ died on the cross? Why would Christ's Apostles later preach about a future resurrection of the dead if that one was it? It's because they were speaking of the resurrection of the dead that the OT prophets spoke of for Christ's FUTURE coming at the end of this earth age, a time way future to their days.
When Christ gave His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, and spoke of His coming and the gathering of the saints to Him, that Message was continued even by His Apostle John in Revelation, which was written in the time of Domitian's reign, around 96A.D. That's about 26 years after 70 A.D., and there's John writing down Christ's Revelation about His still future coming and the events that end this world. If you haven't yet noticed by that, that shows a huge... disagreement with the Preterist doctrines of men.
You still miss a huge point in Paul's teaching, which is WHY Paul rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus for falsely preaching that the resurrection was past already in their day. Paul revealed how even the saints still alive ON EARTH are to be changed to incorruptible bodies at the same time of the resurrection of the dead saints, and BOTH are to be gathered together as one group (1 Thess.4; 1 Cor.15). It can be CLEARLY seen that has not happenned even TODAY. That means the excuse you gave for why Apostle Paul rebuked them for preaching the resurrection was past won't work; not even a little. And those who preach the resurrection is past today, ALSO deserve the same rebuke Paul gave Hymeanaeus and Philetus then. Consider yourself rebuked.
In Romans 8, Apostle Paul well explained what that 'hope' was about, and what time it was for. But it's clear you've not actually read what that Scripture is teaching there either. He said the things seen we don't hope for, but for things not seen, i.e., things that are yet to come. So why would you ADD a carnal reasoning to what Paul said there, for he was declaring hope for the glory that is yet to come, the world that is yet to come? This world we live in today is temporal, and soon to perish. So why would I have the same hope for today's world? My hope is in the glory to be yet revealed by Christ which God's Word speaks about; not this world today.
You don't realize how wrong you can be. You've just demonstrated your love and hope only in this world of today, since you have latched onto the lie that the resurrection is already past, and that Christ's second coming is already past.
parousia70
Member
veteran said:
Well, Your Bible must have Rev 3:3, among others, omitted then.
Revelation 3:3 Cements the thief's coming to the 1st century.
Rather, at the end of the Mosaic Age, a time that was near, soon, shortly, about to come to pass, on the point of ocurring, at hand, etc....
When Christ gave His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, and spoke of His coming and the gathering of the saints to Him, that Message was continued even by His Apostle John in Revelation, which was written in the time of Domitian's reign, around 96A.D.[/quote]
Incorrect.
Revelation was writtin at the close of the Mosaic Age in 66-68AD.
By far the Vast majority of Scholars affirm the pre 70 date for the Book. By far - it's not even close.
The Late daters have only one source, Ireneaus, who also claimed Christ lived to be 50 years old.
You still miss a huge point in Paul's teaching, which is WHY Paul rebuked Hymenaeus and Philetus for falsely preaching that the resurrection was past already in their day. Paul revealed how even the saints still alive ON EARTH are to be changed to incorruptible bodies at the same time of the resurrection of the dead saints, and BOTH are to be gathered together as one group (1 Thess.4; 1 Cor.15). [/quote:6vrbp6yi]
Incorrect again.
The Dead is Christ were to rise FIRST, THEN, after that, the living were to be caught up, Caught up some time AFTER the dead were raised, not at the same time.
There you go again, appealing to an extra biblical authority to prove your view.
"Just look around" is such a silly argument...
Vic C.
Member
Well I'm under the impression that the context doesn't hint at there being "some time". It certainly doesn't say some time. <goes to look>
Nope, it's not there. :D Plus, if you follow Jewish eschatology, the first two days of Rosh Hashanah is when they expect their deceased friends and family to be resurrected and to be joined with them. A shadow of things to come. The Jewish feasts and festivals help guide us in the timing of these things to come. :yes
parousia70 said:
Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)
Again, John was captive on the Isle of Patmos when Christ gave him Revelation to write down. That was in Domitian's reign around 96 A.D. And that verse does not define Christ's return as being in the 1st century A.D. Instead, it's a warning from our Lord to stay watching, for His coming as a thief is a Message tied to many other events that must occur with it.
Also, using adverbs like "at hand", "soon", etc., to base a whole doctrine on is very, very weak, and disregards the many signs Christ gave us to be watching for His return.