Would you be disapointed to find a Hindu in Heaven?

[Soma-Sight]

Would you be disappointed to find a Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Catholic, New Ager, skeptic, communist or liberal in Heaven?

Or would you be glad to see that God's favor included the heathen?

 

[Blazin Bones]

That would prove that the God I worship wasn't who He claimed to be, and that He was just as any of us, unjust. However, God can't be that way or else He wouldn't be God.

 

[maribel]

I think we may be surprised as to who we find in Heaven.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Wait, I just remebered this. If there is no sadness in heaven, how will we be dissapointed? Nope I won't care a bit. however, it would still go against what God word teaches us.

 

[maribel]

Would you be disappointed to find a Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Catholic, New Ager, skeptic, communist or liberal in Heaven?

No, but I would be surprised to find a Christian.

And so very well said! :angel:

 

[Soma-Sight]

That would prove that the God I worship wasn't who He claimed to be, and that He was just as any of us, unjust. However, God can't be that way or else He wouldn't be God.

Well put Brutus, all statistical analysis of the Bible seems to point to caucasian, conservative, republican, capitalist evangelicals as the inheritees of the New Age of humanity in Heaven..... Of course there will be some exceptions but the doctrinal issues of the Evangelical system seem to always fall in this category....

I guess I wonder where that will leave the Jews though?

 

[Blazin Bones]

^ Soma, who said anything about white, conservative capitalists. I didn't...

I'll admit I look over the last two catagories. However, For God to admit a follower of the Hindu, Pure Catholism, Buddhist, or pure new age philosphies into heaven God would have to go against His word.

Hindu do not worship God
Buddhists deny that God exists
Catholics believe they are saved by works
New agers deny God His sovereignty

The Bible clearly teaches that if you do not love Jesus and serve God with your all, and if you do not ask jesus to be your redeemer, you can't be saved. Soma, If you don't like that, take it up with God.

By The way: If God only took white, conservative, capitalist, republicans into Heaven, then I'm stuck in hell. The only thing I fall under is the White part.

 

[Soma-Sight]

The Bible clearly teaches that if you do not love Jesus and serve God with your all, and if you do not ask jesus to be your redeemer, you can't be saved. Soma, If you don't like that, take it up with God.

Wait a minute? That sounds like a works doctrine there Brutus!

But for the record, dont you think serving God takes many forms? As does loving God and relying on Him for your Salvation? Do you equate the observation of the Holy Spirit into anthropomorphized humanistic perception? I dont. In my estimation the Holy Spirit works on the HEART of every individual regardless of circumstances and cultural paradigms. I go as far as saying He is our Heart. If you act upon the True Love that is possible to be made manifest through your flesh in certain circumstances...... that entails a sort of "belief" and "confession" of a power that is transcendant over material benefit for the ego or selfish desires.

This sort of "call" of God is also independant of any cultural significance such as "location", "intellect", or "language".

Simply put this sort of belief could be done by a person that is deaf, blind, dumb, or even infant. The True presence of God can be felt even by those that have never heard his "linguistic" Name and cultural codification.

But then again I may be missing some facts......

 

[maribel]

^ Soma, who said anything about white, conservative capitalists. I didn't...

I'll admit I look over the last two catagories. However, For God to admit a follower of the Hindu, Pure Catholism, Buddhist, or pure new age philosphies into heaven God would have to go against His word.

Hindu do not worship God
Buddhists deny that God exists
Catholics believe they are saved by works
New agers deny God His sovereignty

The Bible clearly teaches that if you do not love Jesus and serve God with your all, and if you do not ask jesus to be your redeemer, you can't be saved. Soma, If you don't like that, take it up with God.

By The way: If God only took white, conservative, capitalist, republicans into Heaven, then I'm stuck in hell. The only thing I fall under is the White part.

So Brutus

This is news to me and I have been Roman Catholic all my life, a long time, news to me that "Catholics believe they are saved by works".

So tell me, what say you saves a person?

 

[Blazin Bones]

The Bible clearly teaches that if you do not love Jesus and serve God with your all, and if you do not ask jesus to be your redeemer, you can't be saved. Soma, If you don't like that, take it up with God.

Wait a minute? That sounds like a works doctrine there Brutus!

But for the record, dont you think serving God takes many forms? As does loving God and relying on Him for your Salvation? Do you equate the observation of the Holy Spirit into anthropomorphized humanistic perception? I dont. In my estimation the Holy Spirit works on the HEART of every individual regardless of circumstances and cultural paradigms. I go as far as saying He is our Heart. If you act upon the True Love that is possible to be made manifest through your flesh in certain circumstances...... that entails a sort of "belief" and "confession" of a power that is transcendant over material benefit for the ego or selfish desires.

This sort of "call" of God is also independant of any cultural significance such as "location", "intellect", or "language".

Simply put this sort of belief could be done by a person that is deaf, blind, dumb, or even infant. The True presence of God can be felt even by those that have never heard his "linguistic" Name and cultural codification.

But then again I may be missing some facts......

Soma you are missing some facts. The Holy Spirit is a gift of Christ. In Fact John 14:16 and following clearly teah that only those who are followers of Christ can recieve the Holy Spirit.

Second where do you see me promoting a works based salvation. James taught us in his letter that faith without works is dead. He did not say that works will save you. Paul taught us in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved by faith so that no man may boast.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I'll admit I look over the last two catagories. However, For God to admit a follower of the Hindu, Pure Catholism, Buddhist, or pure new age philosphies into heaven God would have to go against His word.

Hindu do not worship God
Buddhists deny that God exists
Catholics believe they are saved by works
New agers deny God His sovereignty

So Brutus

This is news to me and I have been Roman Catholic all my life, a long time, news to me that "Catholics believe they are saved by works".

So tell me, what say you saves a person?

Maribel, Faith saves you. As I pointed out to Soma, Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly teaches that man is saved by faith.

Second, note in the begining of my post that I have the word Pure in front of the word Catholic. If you take purely what is held as Catholic doctrine, you indeed have a works based salvation.

1. You have the Sacrements, which are taught as rules that must be followed.

2. You are require to make penance for your sins, when then Bible teaches that Confession(true confession) is all that is needed for forgiveness.

3. The Catholic church teaches that the Pope is infaliable. If this is true, why then does the pope need to take last rights. Infaliable would indicate that he should receive eternal life in heaven. However, he is still made to take last rights. This makes his salvation based on that work, instead of just his infaliablity.

These are just a few ways in which Catholicism, in it's pure state, is a works based Salvation. Needless to say that Catholicism holds doctrines which lessen Christ redemption and raises the power of saints. I apologize for saying just Catholics, but I thought that the previous pure would have been applied to my following statement.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Soma you are missing some facts. The Holy Spirit is a gift of Christ. In Fact John 14:16 and following clearly teah that only those who are followers of Christ can recieve the Holy Spirit.

Your going to tell me that an Amazonian mother watching the beauty of the rain on the canopy cannot hear Christ whispering to her to work hard for the village and His Glory?

You imply that an eskimo isolated from the Westernized Hive Minded religons cannot see the Love of Jesus in his infants eyes?

You are saying that a mentally handicap buddhist that saves an old lady from a robber by giving his own life was not following the Power of The One Living Creator?

I bet you would say that a small african homeless boy without knowledge of Protestant Christianity in its more "sophisticated" doctrine that dies protecting his sister from a tiger is not led by the hand of God on an act of selfless courage?

I find that your God of semantical mind mazes is quite incongruent with Absolute Power.....

 

[AHIMSA]

I find it very interesting that exclusivist Christians claim that we find heaven by grace.

But then they say...to merit that grace...one must believe and live for Christ, one must surrender one's self completely to the will of God...then, on that merit, you recieve grace.

Yet by its very definition, grace is unmerrited. There is nothing you can do to deserve it.

I strongly detest this notion of the salvation formula that belief in christ = salvation........for in the end, what is a belief unless it produces action?

Did Christ die for you or did he not? It matters not whether you believe he died for you. To say that his atonement is somehow dependent on your belief of that event occuring...its like saying medication won't for an illness unless you believe in the medication.

Why would Christ's atonement depend on whether or not you think it happened?


...............then again...I don't even believe in atonement.........but just for the sake of argument

 

[Soma-Sight]

Did Christ die for you or did he not? It matters not whether you believe he died for you. To say that his atonement is somehow dependent on your belief of that event occuring...its like saying medication won't for an illness unless you believe in the medication.

That does seem to be the concensus from the pulpit doesnt it?

I see Christ in all things........ I see Him in nature, in philosphy, in a job well done, in sound, in theory, in my family, in a tree, in my heart....

I believe in all these things as being part of His own Spirit, and the Love of these things as best as your character allows seems to open the veil of the immaterial to the present moment.

"Love God and treat others as you would like to be treated"

Isnt that what any good person doesn regardless of religious background or cultural conditioning?

Christ is

-the sparkle in a newborn's eye....
-the nourishment of the solar energy upon the photosynthetic plants....
-the cry of the heart for his/her long lost love....
-the strong hands of a father working in the fields to support his family....
-the dedicating force behind all wonder and prayer to the Divine sound....
-the ride of the knight in shining armor defending his honor and countrymen....


Salvation comes not from finding the moment of transcendence but realizing the moment is already here..... Opening your heart to the Holy Spirit requires a loss of physical boundaries and a merging of your self to all things God really is.... Love, Truth, and Faith in all God inspired action.....

 

[maribel]

[quote="Brutus/HisCatalyst":39e44]
I'll admit I look over the last two catagories. However, For God to admit a follower of the Hindu, Pure Catholism, Buddhist, or pure new age philosphies into heaven God would have to go against His word.

Hindu do not worship God
Buddhists deny that God exists
Catholics believe they are saved by works
New agers deny God His sovereignty

So Brutus

This is news to me and I have been Roman Catholic all my life, a long time, news to me that "Catholics believe they are saved by works".

So tell me, what say you saves a person?

Maribel, Faith saves you. As I pointed out to Soma, Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly teaches that man is saved by faith.

Second, note in the begining of my post that I have the word Pure in front of the word Catholic. If you take purely what is held as Catholic doctrine, you indeed have a works based salvation.

1. You have the Sacrements, which are taught as rules that must be followed.

2. You are require to make penance for your sins, when then Bible teaches that Confession(true confession) is all that is needed for forgiveness.

3. The Catholic church teaches that the Pope is infaliable. If this is true, why then does the pope need to take last rights. Infaliable would indicate that he should receive eternal life in heaven. However, he is still made to take last rights. This makes his salvation based on that work, instead of just his infaliablity.

These are just a few ways in which Catholicism, in it's pure state, is a works based Salvation. Needless to say that Catholicism holds doctrines which lessen Christ redemption and raises the power of saints. I apologize for saying just Catholics, but I thought that the previous pure would have been applied to my following statement.[/quote:39e44]

Brutus

You say people are saved by faith. Catholics have faith.

The Sacraments are a part of our faith which as you say saves us.

You misinterpret infallibility as most people do. The Pope is infallible in his
activities (not the right word, but close) as Pope. He is not considered infallible in his activities as a personal person. I am not a theologian so I may not have said that exactly right. If I say more, I will mess it up. I would try to answer if you have a question.

As far as penance goes, I really don't know what that has to do with anything. To my knowledge, confession to a priest is not even required anymore. Your words take me back many, many years. Maybe you had better update.

 

[maribel]

And by the way Brutus

You speak of PURE Catholicism. There is only one PURE in this world that I know of and that is JESUS. I suspect JESUS Catholicism might be a bit more than you want to deal with. 8-)

 

[maribel]

I find it very interesting that exclusivist Christians claim that we find heaven by grace.

But then they say...to merit that grace...one must believe and live for Christ, one must surrender one's self completely to the will of God...then, on that merit, you recieve grace.

Yet by its very definition, grace is unmerrited. There is nothing you can do to deserve it.

I strongly detest this notion of the salvation formula that belief in christ = salvation........for in the end, what is a belief unless it produces action?

Did Christ die for you or did he not? It matters not whether you believe he died for you. To say that his atonement is somehow dependent on your belief of that event occuring...its like saying medication won't for an illness unless you believe in the medication.

Why would Christ's atonement depend on whether or not you think it happened?


...............then again...I don't even believe in atonement.........but just for the sake of argument

Interesting Ahimsa

Jesus didn't look around and say "I am going to die for you, you and you". He just up and died for all of us, every last one of us, no holds barred. And you are right....whether or not we believe it doesn't change the fact that He died for all of us. A pure, unadulterated gift of eternal life He gave to all of us. He didn't ask us if we wanted it, He just gave it, free. As one minister I admire said "God is the Judge and Jesus defends us and has already paid the price for our sins". I wish I could remember the rest of what he said. And I don't even have a clue as to what religion he belonged to. I just liked his thoughts.

 

[Relic]

I find it very interesting that exclusivist Christians claim that we find heaven by grace.

But then they say...to merit that grace...one must believe and live for Christ, one must surrender one's self completely to the will of God...then, on that merit, you recieve grace.

Yet by its very definition, grace is unmerrited. There is nothing you can do to deserve it.

I strongly detest this notion of the salvation formula that belief in christ = salvation........for in the end, what is a belief unless it produces action?

Did Christ die for you or did he not? It matters not whether you believe he died for you. To say that his atonement is somehow dependent on your belief of that event occuring...its like saying medication won't for an illness unless you believe in the medication.

Why would Christ's atonement depend on whether or not you think it happened?


...............then again...I don't even believe in atonement.........but just for the sake of argument

Interesting Ahimsa

Jesus didn't look around and say "I am going to die for you, you and you". He just up and died for all of us, every last one of us, no holds barred. And you are right....whether or not we believe it doesn't change the fact that He died for all of us. A pure, unadulterated gift of eternal life He gave to all of us. He didn't ask us if we wanted it, He just gave it, free. As one minister I admire said "God is the Judge and Jesus defends us and has already paid the price for our sins". I wish I could remember the rest of what he said. And I don't even have a clue as to what religion he belonged to. I just liked his thoughts.

You misunderstand the term "freely given". If we don't live in Christ we have not freely received! We all have FREE WILL. It is what you do with it that is what determines what you receive.

There is nothing we can do to deserve Grace IF we are OUTSIDE OF CHRIST JESUS! Without being IN Christ Jesus. we are nothing! We must humble ourselves and Give our lives to Christ and WALK IN THIS WAY.
We receive nothing without the Spirit of Christ living IN us.

Grace is not for those who reject walking WITH Christ JESUS.

How can it be given to those who reject it? Free doesn't mean it is given to the sinner who refuses to REPENT, to TURN AWAY from their sins/iniquity.

The road is narrow. Not broad.


Jesus didn't preach on how to enter the Kingdom of heaven for nothing.

There is a WAY and IF one does not WALK WITH CHRIST, IN the TRUE SPIRIT of Christ they miss the whole teaching of what it means to come to repentance, and to be BAPTISED by the "HOLY" Spirit. so as to walk with God.

Grace is Freely given, to those who take it IN THE NAME OF CHRIST JESUS.

What makes anyone think Grace is for the one who continually walks in unrepentance of sin, and continually walks in the way of iniquity?

Sacrifice means we too must TAKE UP OUR CROSS AND WALK WITH HIM.
Matthew 10:38 , Matthew 16:24 , Mark 8:34 , Mark 10:21 , Luke 9:23 , Luke 14:27 , 1 Corinthians 1:17 , 1 Corinthians 1:18 , Galatians 5:11

A Key to receiving Grace IS THROUGH BEING WILLING TO COME TO REPENTANCE. without coming to Christ through repentance is a futility! We have free will, and IF we are going to live outside of Walking with Christ Jesus we are not in a position to freely accept that freely given gift. You can't receive Grace if You don't live IN CHRIST.
There is NO GRACE OUTSIDE OF HIM! Grace is IN CHRIST JESUS.
There is a price to pay, Romans 12:1 , that price comes with giving ourselves up as a living sacrifice to HIM by way of coming to Repentance. IT IS AN ACT OF OUR OWN FREE WILL. WE FREELY GIVE TO CHRIST BY OUR SUBMISSION TO HIM.

UNDERSTAND WHAT "FREELY Given" in this sense truly MEANS!

We too must FOLLOW HIM IN THEY WAY IN WHICH HE WALKS. Do you think we don't have to do anything? Do you think we don't have to turn away from the iniquity of our ways? That takes a lot of work. to walk in the grace of God. And we don't get it if we aren't willing to give our ALL to him by coming to Repentance. Repentance IS NOT EASY! THAT IS WHERE THE HARD WORK IS AND THAT IS WHERE FAITH COMES ALIVE!

Transgression of the HOLY Spirit is not the way to receiving Grace.


There are steps we all must take in order to receive the grace and salvation of Christ Jesus.

We MUST walk in the Same Path.

What's it take to grow up in Christ Jesus?
Let the Father, teach you AND, discipline you.

There will be trials and tribulations in this live. Acts 14:22 , Romans 5:3 , 1 Peter 4:12

HE taught us HOW to overcome them all buy teaching us that we all must Take up our own cross also and bear it. We must be dead to sin, and alive IN Christ.

Renewing the mind in the HOLY Spirit, is not without labor!

Grace is given freely, meaning it is offered to us freely. But the price of earning it means to take up the cross and learn what it means to come to the Salvation of Christ Jesus.

You think everything is free without having to work diligently for it?

If so, then you got the whole message of the gospel wrong. It's take a lot of diligent work to learn how to overcome and walk with Christ. Tribulations alway get in the way of that walk IF we are not BORN AGAIN into the HOLY spirit by the RENEWING of the MIND. We must take on that mind IN Christ Jesus. or else we are not OF Him but of the things of this world!

Anything that is about to be born MUST go through the labor .

Faith without works is dead! Jesus taught what it takes to walk in his ways. And it is NOT a do nothing free ride handed to you on a silver spoon in which you don't have anything to do or overcome. Coming to Repentance and overcoming tribulations takes a lot of HARD WORK! And that is where your Grace comes freely. When you WALK IN Christ. The more you walk in Christ the more God's Grace is shed on you (blessing). But that doesn't mean we will not have anymore trials and tribulations to overcome. Romans 5:3 , Ephesians 3:13 , 2 Thessalonians 1:4 ...
Without that walk you have nothing but living in the carnal minded life that is to no advantage into the kingdom of heaven.

Does a mother not go through labor before the Birth?


Read the new testament again and pay particular attention to the words of Christ Jesus. You think it's all a free ride? No, We've GOT WORK TO DO!

Repentance IS WORK! that leads to the remission of sins. NOT EASY!

But Grace IS freely given to those who are willing to take what it takes to get to that place! The mercy seat is not without coming to a humble heart. Pray God be so merciful. We all need to ask the Lord for His grace and mercy.

Without asking we receive not!

Simple enough, but not easy. Who said it would be easy?

.

 

[Relic]

...............then again...I don't even believe in atonement.........

How can anyone not believe in atonement?

Atonement means to make amends. To make amends is to mend something. a reconciliation.

If you are in need of mending and reconciliation, does that then mean you don't want to be, if you say you don't believe in atonement ? You don't want reconciliation? :o


.

 

[maribel]

Relic says:

You misunderstand the term "freely given". If we don't live in Christ we have not freely received! We all have FREE WILL. It is what you do with it that is what determines what you receive.

There is nothing we can do to deserve Grace IF we are OUTSIDE OF CHRIST JESUS! Without being IN Christ Jesus. we are nothing! We must humble ourselves and Give our lives to Christ and WALK IN THIS WAY.
We receive nothing without the Spirit of Christ living IN us.

Grace is not for those who reject walking WITH Christ JESUS.

How can it be given to those who reject it? Free doesn't mean it is given to the sinner who refuses to REPENT, to TURN AWAY from their sins/iniquity.

The road is narrow. Not broad.

Oh I understand all that stuff Relic

It just makes you feel bigger to think that I don't, but I do. I do believe that if I said white was white that you would argue that it wasn't.....that the reality is that white is white. Argument for the sake of argument is such a waste of good time.

God's grace is given freely to all people who have the freedom/choice to turn away from it if they wish, but the grace is there for them if they choose it. And of course I must add for you that the choosing to accept the grace requires responsibility, a given as far as I am concerned.