Would you be disapointed to find a Hindu in Heaven?

[Blazin Bones]

And by the way Brutus

You speak of PURE Catholicism. There is only one PURE in this world that I know of and that is JESUS. I suspect JESUS Catholicism might be a bit more than you want to deal with. 8-)

Maribel, believe it or not, pure Catholic doctrine teaches that mary was also pure, and so she is considered a co-redeemer. So apparently your own doctrines don't agree with your statement...

Yes, I agree that Christ alone is pure(at least among men), but that is not what Catholic doctrine teaches.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Brutus

You say people are saved by faith. Catholics have faith.

The Sacraments are a part of our faith which as you say saves us.

I never said Catholics don't have Faith. What I did say is that they base their salvation on works, which is not scriptural. Sacrements are a work, but Faith is something independently established and maintained aside from works. Catholics, from those I've met and discussed this issue with. place their faith in their sacremanet more than the do in the death of the Messiah.

You misinterpret infallibility as most people do. The Pope is infallible in his
activities (not the right word, but close) as Pope. He is not considered infallible in his activities as a personal person. I am not a theologian so I may not have said that exactly right. If I say more, I will mess it up. I would try to answer if you have a question.

Yes , in fact, he is. Why then did no one speak up when he allowed a muslim to serve as a minsiter of a church in Colorado? The Term "Vicor of Christ" is a clear implication pointing to his personal infaliability.

As far as penance goes, I really don't know what that has to do with anything. To my knowledge, confession to a priest is not even required anymore. Your words take me back many, many years. Maybe you had better update.

Penance is clearly relevant as it is a work that at least catholic children are asked to perform as a sign of remorse. Again this shows a works based Salvation.

As for confession. Confession to a preist was never scripturally required. The Bible teaches that we are to confess our sins before Christ. He's the only Preist to whom I need to confess my sins to, because he is the only one able to forgive them.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Soma you are missing some facts. The Holy Spirit is a gift of Christ. In Fact John 14:16 and following clearly teah that only those who are followers of Christ can recieve the Holy Spirit.

Your going to tell me that an Amazonian mother watching the beauty of the rain on the canopy cannot hear Christ whispering to her to work hard for the village and His Glory?

You imply that an eskimo isolated from the Westernized Hive Minded religons cannot see the Love of Jesus in his infants eyes?

You are saying that a mentally handicap buddhist that saves an old lady from a robber by giving his own life was not following the Power of The One Living Creator?

I bet you would say that a small african homeless boy without knowledge of Protestant Christianity in its more "sophisticated" doctrine that dies protecting his sister from a tiger is not led by the hand of God on an act of selfless courage?

I find that your God of semantical mind mazes is quite incongruent with Absolute Power.....

Again, your talking with your emotions and not facts...

Again, John 14:16 and following clearly teach that only those who are followers of Christ can receive the Holy Spirit. If you don't like what God's word Teaches, take it up with him.

However, for your three cases I say this. Nowhere in any of those three cases did you mention the Holy Spirit. God and Christ can reveal themselves to the lost, and that is clearly scripturally recorded. Christ came to Paul. God appeared before King Belshazzar and wrote a message one the wall.

God can indeed reveal himself to the lost, but if the lost accepts the message of Christ, they are no longer lost.

Galatians 3:28 teaches that for those who are in Christ there in no longer any distinction but the Distinction of Christ.

 

[maribel]

Brutus

You don't really know much of anything about the Roman Catholic Religion. By your own words, you are basing statements on a couple people you know who obviously have their own ways because it certainly is foreign to me. I never heard tell of Catholics thinking they were saved by works....that is a ridiculous statement by you. And Catholics most certainly base their faith on Jesus, His dying for us.

Unless you study a reliable source for information on Roman Catholic beliefs and can make informed statements, I will just ignore your posts.

 

[aiki]

Hello.

SomaSight wrote:

Salvation comes not from finding the moment of transcendence but realizing the moment is already here..... Opening your heart to the Holy Spirit requires a loss of physical boundaries and a merging of your self to all things God really is.... Love, Truth, and Faith in all God inspired action.....

The phrasing of this statement is very ambiguous. :o :-? What does "requires a loss of physical boundaries" mean? How does one merge oneself into "Love, Truth, and Faith in all God-inspired action"? Where does any of what you've said in the above quotation find support in Scripture?

The Bible recognizes that those who are not born-again may do good deeds. (Ro. 2:14, 15) But it never suggests that these deeds are acceptable to God or originate with Him. Scripture most definitely does not suggest that naturally-occuring good deeds have a salvationary effect -- quite the opposite. Isaiah the prophet wrote, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6) and Paul the apostle stated, "There is none righteous, no not one" (Ro. 3:10).

Christ is

-the sparkle in a newborn's eye....
-the nourishment of the solar energy upon the photosynthetic plants....
-the cry of the heart for his/her long lost love....
-the strong hands of a father working in the fields to support his family....
-the dedicating force behind all wonder and prayer to the Divine sound....
-the ride of the knight in shining armor defending his honor and countrymen....

Christ is none of these things. He is a distinct person, separate from what he has made. Christ is the creative power behind the development of a baby's eye, but he is not the twinkle in that eye. Christ placed in force the process of photosynthesis, but he is not the process itself. He is above these things, he is the sustainer of them, but he is not these things themselves. The painting and the Painter are not one and the same. :wink: :D

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Maribel, Go ahead and Ignore me. I'm sorry, but your own doctrines teach these things. The Doctrine of the church teaches the Mary is the Co-Redeemer with Christ.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals ... ITLES.html

However, John 14:6 of any Bible teaches that Jesus is the way, and not Jesus and Mary.

I'm not the one creating these things. The Catholic church is, and has been for several centuries.

As to Infallibility, look at questions 124 or 526 from these links.

In order for the spoken words of a person to be perfect, their mind must be perfect. If Their mind was perfect, they themsleves would be perfect. Therefore to be infallible must be to be perfect, in speech and actions.

Edited to add: Maribel, I don't get these ideas from friends, I get these from studing the catholic doctrines. I'm a Christiaity major. To study Christianity, and not look into Catholic doctrine is like studying baseball and not mentioning a baseball bat.

 

[AHIMSA]

Soma Sight wrote:

Salvation comes not from finding the moment of transcendence but realizing the moment is already here..... Opening your heart to the Holy Spirit requires a loss of physical boundaries and a merging of your self to all things God really is.... Love, Truth, and Faith in all God inspired action.....

Soma Sight, you really are quite the mystic...I love it! Those words are very poetic, and I agree with you completely.

Much of my spirituality is based on Buddhism, which I believe would say a similar thing about salvation. Salvation is not the acknowledgment of some kind of belief, its not the confirming of some complex theological statment formed over centuries of debate. Rather salvation is an experience....an awakening to our true potential as human beings. It transcends beliefs...which are nothing more than words...transcends concepts even, for it speaks alone...the language of the heart and soul.

 

[CatholicXian]

Brutus & Maribel...

We are saved by grace. By faith we accept the grace offered. And James tells us that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). And there are numerous Scriptures which record our being judged according to our actions and deeds. "Faith working through love" is what counts (cf. Galatians 5:4-6).

The Catholic Church mentions works as to avoid that occasional OSAS attitude that says "I can do as a please and still be saved". We are held accountable for what we do... as what we do expresses that which we believe. Faith is naturally expressive in the form of good works done in the name of Christ--this is what James was speaking of, and this is what the Catholic Church means.


(I hope that in your studies of Catholicism, Brutus, that you are studying more than just pointed aspects of it... the Catholic faith must be taken as a whole, not in parts)

 

[Blazin Bones]

Xian, I assure you, as I've studied Catholicism, I've kept in mind that every church we know today has a backgroud in The Catholic Church, and there fore all views must be considered.

Yes, indeed, grace is what gives redemption, but as Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, it is faith alone that saves us and allows us to accept that redemption. Again, Faith is made eveident by the works we perform, but works have no part in enabling us to receive that grace.That is why things such as sacrements and penance are good but not necessary as the Catholic church would teach many to believe.

 

[maribel]

Quoted from Brutus

I never said Catholics don't have Faith. What I did say is that they base their salvation on works, which is not scriptural. Sacrements are a work, but Faith is something independently established and maintained aside from works. Catholics, from those I've met and discussed this issue with. place their faith in their sacremanet more than the do in the death of the Messiah.

Brutus

I won't ignore you. Above in bold is why I said you were stating what you heard from friends. That is what you say in bold above.

Now you say you study the Roman Catholic religion. I can deal with that too. The only thing I have a real problem with is that every religion, church.....has faults as bad and maybe worse than the Roman Catholic religion. So why not spread around the misery a bit more.

Brutus quote
Edited to add: Maribel, I don't get these ideas from friends, I get these from studing the catholic doctrines. I'm a Christiaity major. To study Christianity, and not look into Catholic doctrine is like studying baseball and not mentioning a baseball bat.

Boy, in bold.....sure seems to say something quite good for the RCC!

 

[Blazin Bones]

I could get point out some of the faults of other denominations, however, they haven't been part of the discussion from the first post. 8-)

As For the RCC, It is the oldest established denomination, it is the largest denomination, and it is responsible for some very important historical finds. However, If someone really wanted to bash the RCC, they could simply point out that it is the only denomination that has had the two greatest church splits in History. Just as baseball need to have the bat mentioned, at some point while you are discussing church history, you have to mention the RCC.

 

[Relic]

It just makes you feel bigger to think that I don't

You don't even know me. :o Two days on this board and you attack me on a personal basis by accusing me of how I feel or think. You have no idea of how I feel or think. I'd appreciate it if you would stop telling me what I feel or think. I had no such feelings or thought none of what your accusations of me were in the above quote.

You have been interjecting what some of the people of this board think and feel all too often since you appeared here these past couple of days. You are not a mind reader. So please refrain from telling people what they are thinking and feeling because you don't know what others are thinking and feeling and will never know what anyone thinks or feels on a personal level. And, if you think I am writing things to get one up on you then you are mistaken. I am not that kind of a person and never will be. :-?


.

 

[maribel]

What is so terrible about the RCC splits Brutus?

 

[maribel]

It just makes you feel bigger to think that I don't

You don't even know me. :o Two days on this board and you attack me on a personal basis by accusing me of how I feel or think. You have no idea of how I feel or think. I'd appreciate it if you would stop telling me what I feel or think. I had no such feelings or thought none of what your accusations of me were in the above quote.

You have been interjecting what some of the people of this board think and feel all too often since you appeared here these past couple of days. You are not a mind reader. So please refrain from telling people what they are thinking and feeling because you don't know what others are thinking and feeling and will never know what anyone thinks or feels on a personal level. And, if you think I am writing things to get one up on you then you are mistaken. I am not that kind of a person and never will be. :-?


.

Sorry Relic

I deserved that. I will be more careful in the future. I hate it when I am attacked so I should know not to do it to others.

 

[Blazin Bones]

What is so terrible about the RCC splits Brutus?

What is so terrible about the splits is that is did exactly what Christians are not supposed to do, divide. One of the most important things to any body is unity.

 

[AHIMSA]

Your going to hassle the Catholic church for splitting in 1054? Then again during the Reformation?

Have you looked at the number of different fragments protestantism has broken into? Theres dozens upon dozens, if not more. I think all of Christianity is guilty of dividing itself up...not just Catholicism. And these anti-Catholic rants do nothing to re-unify the "Body of Christ"

It seems to me that people envision a united Christianity only when everyone can be pidgeon-holed into accepting the same exact series of doctrines and beliefs. I would rather see a Christianity unified under diversity, where different opinions, beliefs and traditions could be respected.

I myself have many disagreements with the social and theological aspects of the Catholic Church. However, I also recognize that it a very beautiful institution with many positive aspects.

So what if one person thinks we are saved by works, while the other by grace? So what if one believes in transubstanation, while another does not? Does this not strike anyone as irrelevant? What matters not is what one believes, but rather the fruits of that faith. If the faith is bad...it will produce bad fruits, as Christ himself said. Lets stop squabbling about petty differences between Christian demoninations and learn to celebrate the fact that they all share in the same vision of a peaceful and loving world.

Lastly, the Catholic Church, through the actions of the late John Paul II, has gained tremendous repsect in my eyes for its committment to interfaith dialouge. John Paul was not afraid to embrace other religions, to learn from them...to disagree with them...but to accept their differences and recognize the different paths to God.

There will be no peace until the religions of this earth can learn to accept one another, respect one another and learn from one another. Catholicism is the only mainstream demonination that I have seen make this very vital effort.

As a Sufi mystic once said:

There are many different paths up the mountain. But when the travellers all reach the final peak....the view is the same.

 

[maribel]

Your going to hassle the Catholic church for splitting in 1054? Then again during the Reformation?

Have you looked at the number of different fragments protestantism has broken into? Theres dozens upon dozens, if not more. I think all of Christianity is guilty of dividing itself up...not just Catholicism. And these anti-Catholic rants do nothing to re-unify the "Body of Christ"

It seems to me that people envision a united Christianity only when everyone can be pidgeon-holed into accepting the same exact series of doctrines and beliefs. I would rather see a Christianity unified under diversity, where different opinions, beliefs and traditions could be respected.

I myself have many disagreements with the social and theological aspects of the Catholic Church. However, I also recognize that it a very beautiful institution with many positive aspects.

So what if one person thinks we are saved by works, while the other by grace? So what if one believes in transubstanation, while another does not? Does this not strike anyone as irrelevant? What matters not is what one believes, but rather the fruits of that faith. If the faith is bad...it will produce bad fruits, as Christ himself said. Lets stop squabbling about petty differences between Christian demoninations and learn to celebrate the fact that they all share in the same vision of a peaceful and loving world.

Lastly, the Catholic Church, through the actions of the late John Paul II, has gained tremendous repsect in my eyes for its committment to interfaith dialouge. John Paul was not afraid to embrace other religions, to learn from them...to disagree with them...but to accept their differences and recognize the different paths to God.

There will be no peace until the religions of this earth can learn to accept one another, respect one another and learn from one another. Catholicism is the only mainstream demonination that I have seen make this very vital effort.

As a Sufi mystic once said:

There are many different paths up the mountain. But when the travellers all reach the final peak....the view is the same.

Ahimsa

I so wanted to say something like that, and you have said it so well. I will not even try to add to it. I am sure God is pleased. Thank you.

 

[Relic]

.


John 14:6

Jesus said to him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father except

through Me.




"Jesus" said, NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

There is no other way.



.

 

[Blazin Bones]

.


John 14:6

Jesus said to him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life.

No one comes to the Father except

through Me.




"Jesus" said, NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

There is no other way.



.

Exactly Relic. Jesus is the only way, AHIMSA. Yes there are tons of portetant denominations, but they are all a result of the Catholic Schisms. Just as the Bible teaches the sins of the father are seen in the son, such is true for the Catholic Church and the way protestant divisons. As For John Paul II, since he has past away, I'll let his evil works lie with him.

 

[Gary]

As Relic said....

• John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
  
  Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
  
  Ephesians 2:18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
  
  Ephesians 3:12 In him (Jesus Christ) and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
  
  1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus....
  
  Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he (Jesus Christ) is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
  
  Hebrews 10:19-22 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
  
  1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit...

I believe what John wrote about Jesus and what Jesus said. I also believe Paul, Peter and the author of Hebrews.