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Wrong view of faith

Oats

Member
Why does it seem that most Christians say that there is no actual evidence for God only faith?

I think that you can have faith in something that has a huge list of evidence...

I think believing in God is realising he is in the room right now reading what you writing

He was there yesterday when that thing went wrong.

He will be there on Judgement day.


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I can say I have faith all I want, but at the end of the I can say that isn't even a mustard seed.

Jesus' apostles were with him and their faith failed....when the proof was talking to them in the face

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So my claim is that you can believe something with a long list of evidence but not have faith.


There is evidence for God.

But very little faith exist in this world

Thank you Holy Spirit
 
<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Why does it seem that most Christians say that there is no actual evidence for God only faith?


Is this true? Seems there is evidence all around us, isn't there?
 
Is this true? Seems there is evidence all around us, isn't there?
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There is evidence, but it can be analyse different ways. Some closer to the truth than others....but the thing about the truth is that you dont have to believe...
 
Jesus' apostles were with him and their faith failed....when the proof was talking to them in the face
Proof isn't talking to me in the face though (and I'd beg to differ that proof was talking to them in their faces - "miracles" are rarely proof of divinity, only supreme trickery in many cases). Why must we rely on 2000+ year-old texts that have been corrupted through translation and perversion by churches and institutions of old? - why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?

I cannot and will not place my faith in words recounting such extraordinary events that were recorded thousands of years ago - I do not place my faith in the Vedas, Upanishads, or the Epic of Gilgamesh for example; I've no need or compulsion to do so - so why ought I put my faith in the Gospels, the writings of Paul, the Torah or any other biblical texts?

There is evidence for God.
Such as? You haven't actually presented any.

But very little faith exist in this world
Thank science, as one may say.
 
Proof isn't talking to me in the face though (and I'd beg to differ that proof was talking to them in their faces - "miracles" are rarely proof of divinity, only supreme trickery in many cases). Why must we rely on 2000+ year-old texts that have been corrupted through translation and perversion by churches and institutions of old? - why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?

I cannot and will not place my faith in words recounting such extraordinary events that were recorded thousands of years ago - I do not place my faith in the Vedas, Upanishads, or the Epic of Gilgamesh for example; I've no need or compulsion to do so - so why ought I put my faith in the Gospels, the writings of Paul, the Torah or any other biblical texts?


Such as? You haven't actually presented any.


Thank science, as one may say.
I see your point but it is the only game in town, God has given humans a recognization of God through creation,an explanation of God through the bible, a conviction of God through His Spirit speaking to our hearts, and a testimony of God through believers. God believes that is enough.
 
- why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?


You will get your chance when he returns. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord, so you will know he is God. Unfortunately if you don't believe before then it will be too late for you.
 
I went out deep sea fishing. The water was a bit colder than normal and the fishing was not great. The skipper got a call on his cell phone saying that a lot of birds were diving of the coast so we went and had a look. What amazed me was the hundreds of dolphins, the whales, the seals and the different array of birds diving as an mass of anchovies swam underneath us. The dolphins chased the boat and i was amazed. I live in a part of South Africa that has had a boom in game reserves and just taking a 20km ride out the town I live in I get to see rhinos', elephants, giraffe, lions(if you lucky), wild dogs and a multitude of buck.
In this I see the evidence of GOD. Take away biblical prophecy and whatever you want to. Let me see God's creation and I have my evidence. I don't need faith to see that, my faith is in Christ alone that he took the punishment for my sins.
 
why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?
He did! But, we still won't believe. Does he need to do it every day for eternity?

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’†Luke 16:27-31, NKJ


I would be curious if you believe that Caesar existed and why you believe this.
 
Proof isn't talking to me in the face though (and I'd beg to differ that proof was talking to them in their faces - "miracles" are rarely proof of divinity, only supreme trickery in many cases). Why must we rely on 2000+ year-old texts that have been corrupted through translation and perversion by churches and institutions of old? - why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?

I cannot and will not place my faith in words recounting such extraordinary events that were recorded thousands of years ago - I do not place my faith in the Vedas, Upanishads, or the Epic of Gilgamesh for example; I've no need or compulsion to do so - so why ought I put my faith in the Gospels, the writings of Paul, the Torah or any other biblical texts?


Such as? You haven't actually presented any.


Thank science, as one may say.



address my points

1. The Argument from Change

The material world we know is a world of change. This young woman came to be 5'2", but she was not always that height. The great oak tree before us grew from the tiniest acorn. Now when something comes to be in a certain state, such as mature size, that state cannot bring itself into being. For until it comes to be, it does not exist, and if it does not yet exist, it cannot cause anything.
As for the thing that changes, although it can be what it will become, it is not yet what it will become. It actually exists right now in this state (an acorn); it will actually exist in that state (large oak tree). But it is not actually in that state now. It only has the potentiality for that state.
Now a question: To explain the change, can we consider the changing thing alone, or must other things also be involved? Obviously, other things must be involved. Nothing can give itself what it does not have, and the changing thing cannot have now, already, what it will come to have then. The result of change cannot actually exist before the change. The changing thing begins with only the potential to change, but it needs to be acted on by other things outside if that potential is to be made actual. Otherwise it cannot change.
Nothing changes itself. Apparently self-moving things, like animal bodies, are moved by desire or will—something other than mere molecules. And when the animal or human dies, the molecules remain, but the body no longer moves because the desire or will is no longer present to move it.
Now a further question: Are the other things outside the changing thing also changing? Are its movers also moving? If so, all of them stand in need right now of being acted on by other things, or else they cannot change. No matter how many things there are in the series, each one needs something outside itself to actualize its potentiality for change.
The universe is the sum total of all these moving things, however many there are. The whole universe is in the process of change. But we have already seen that change in any being requires an outside force to actualize it. Therefore, there is some force outside (in addition to) the universe, some real being transcendent to the universe. This is one of the things meant by "God."
Briefly, if there is nothing outside the material universe, then there is nothing that can cause the universe to change. But it does change. Therefore there must be something in addition to the material universe. But the universe is the sum total of all matter, space and time. These three things depend on each other. Therefore this being outside the universe is outside matter, space and time. It is not a changing thing; it is the unchanging Source of change.
 
Why don't you bring me a "cup full of god" and I will look at it and make that assessment myself.

God is Invisible, unknowable, Untangable, Unmeasureable, And hasn't been catagorically seen to impact the universe in a consistent or detectable way.

Surely in that case faith or non-faith of such an entity is Irrelivent.
By not beliving in such a creature I'm not damaged or harmed in any apprent external way.
So basically it dosen't matter.

Just what did your god do?
 
Why don't you bring me a "cup full of god" and I will look at it and make that assessment myself.

God is Invisible, unknowable, Untangable, Unmeasureable, And hasn't been catagorically seen to impact the universe in a consistent or detectable way.

Surely in that case faith or non-faith of such an entity is Irrelivent.
By not beliving in such a creature I'm not damaged or harmed in any apprent external way.
So basically it dosen't matter.

Just what did your god do?


He is knowable, and possible to experience.

But can Science bring God down to a science, no.


But can you see God , yes, however no man has ever seen God though, in his fullness that is
 
He is knowable, and possible to experience.

But can Science bring God down to a science, no.


But can you see God , yes, however no man has ever seen God though, in his fullness that is
Then he's only a subjective thing and you can't expect objective external viewers to accept that explaination.

I haven't ever known or felt him. So My lack of faith is as good as your faith based on the exact same reasoning.
 
Then he's only a subjective thing and you can't expect objective external viewers to accept that explaination.

I haven't ever known or felt him. So My lack of faith is as good as your faith based on the exact same reasoning.

Your right, and this is where I will have to bow out.

God does exist, but you choose not to believe.

No one is completely objective

You have a five sense bias

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If the Bible is right about what it says about us sinners than why would God be wrong?
 
Proof isn't talking to me in the face though (and I'd beg to differ that proof was talking to them in their faces - "miracles" are rarely proof of divinity, only supreme trickery in many cases).
I have some sympathy for your view here. I would not consider a miracle as a proof of divinity. But many Christians, myself among them, would not put forward "miracles" per se as evidence for the existence of God.

Why must we rely on 2000+ year-old texts that have been corrupted through translation and perversion by churches and institutions of old? - why cannot God reveal himself in the flesh so we can worship or reject him accordingly?
I suggest you will probably not be able to put forward credible evidence that there has been substantial "perversion" of the relevant texts. I am not suggesting that there are no "errors", but you are making quite a claim here, and I suspect you will not be able to support (any more than I could "prove" that the texts are uncorrupted).

On the matter of God being here in the flesh, I think we should be careful about our expectations in this respect. While I certainly understand the desire to "see God in the flesh", as it were, the fact that we don't is not really evidence that God does not exist. There may be any number of reasons why God remains "hidden" at this time.
 
Then he's only a subjective thing and you can't expect objective external viewers to accept that explaination.

I haven't ever known or felt him. So My lack of faith is as good as your faith based on the exact same reasoning.
I would say that I do not "experience" God in the sense that I suspect Oats (and many others) mean. However, I still strongly believe in the reality of the Christian God.

I know this may hurt some feelings, but I do not see how I can make my point otherwise. So here goes:

The Bible presents us with a complex single narrative - a "story" if you will. In the last 5 years or so, I have undertaken serious study of this story. What I have discovered is a story of incredible complexity, sophistication, and coherence. I won't get into the details, but I would assert that the story is itself so compelling that it has a "ring of truth" about it. So I would say that the greatest evidence for the reality of the Christian is that the Biblical narrative is itself so compelling - its a story so "strange", yet so "sensible" that it "has to be true".

And now for the part that I am sure will offend my fellow Christians. Coming to understand this narrative is a lot of hard work. And many are not willing (or, in some cases, not able) to engage in the project of coming to understand the grand story. So you get Christians appealing to "their subjective experience" as the thing in which faith is grounded. I am, addmittedly, very skeptical - why do some Christians have such experience and others, like me, do not? Personal "experiences" are tricky and I do not think they are a solid guide to determining the truth.
 
Why does it seem that most Christians say that there is no actual evidence for God only faith?

I think that you can have faith in something that has a huge list of evidence...

I think believing in God is realising he is in the room right now reading what you writing

He was there yesterday when that thing went wrong.

He will be there on Judgement day.


------------

I can say I have faith all I want, but at the end of the I can say that isn't even a mustard seed.

Jesus' apostles were with him and their faith failed....when the proof was talking to them in the face

--------------


So my claim is that you can believe something with a long list of evidence but not have faith.


There is evidence for God.

But very little faith exist in this world

Thank you Holy Spirit


Romans 1:20 NLT

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
 
You will get your chance when he returns. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord, so you will know he is God. Unfortunately if you don't believe before then it will be too late for you.
Let me say this very, very clearly: this is not just. This God, if he will indeed indict me and my fellow men for not believing that which cannot be seen, heard, known or at all scientifically observed, instead requiring a fleeting faith, is not a just God.

And for the record, sanity is not statistical. I will not know, nor will I indeed accept, that he is God simply because every knee is bowing and every tongue is confessing that he is. 1.5 billion or so people are currently doing this for Allah, and I became an apostate when I was 15.

Romans 1:20 NLT

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Seeing "the invisible" seems a bit of a paradox doesn't it? Why does the Earth and the sky, and everything God has made, point to your God and not the gods of the Greeks or the Hindus?

God believes that is enough.
Then why must non-believers "suffer" in their perpetual ignorance? Clearly, it is not enough: it is not enough to expect me to believe because a series of translated writings written thousands of years ago tell me of this God; it is not enough to expect me to believe because his existence is somehow self-evident; it is especially not enough to expect me to believe because everyone else does.

He did! But, we still won't believe. Does he need to do it every day for eternity?
That is exactly what he needs to do. To sit on his throne in plain view so we can worship him or not accordingly.

‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’†Luke 16:27-31, NKJ
I would not call one who could rise from the dead a God, no. Is one of God's special properties rising from the dead? One would think that a special property of God is that he does not die (please, spare me the half-man, half-God; I'm well versed in it from my Christian days).

A God would know how to prove to me that he is God, all things considered (him being omniscient and omnipotent). Rising from the dead is certainly an amazing feat (if he did really rise from the dead), but neither does it demonstrate any supernatural power nor does it demonstrate absolute divinity.

I would be curious if you believe that Caesar existed and why you believe this.
The only reliable evidence we have of a historical Jesus is a passing remark made by Tacitus. I continue to believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Caesar's existence as a Roman Emperor is historically valid and reliable.

This is the same reason as to why I am conflicted in believing that Socrates existed as a historical figure, rather than as a literary of Plato, and why I see no compelling reason to believe that Laozi existed.

address my points
I don't consider ontological arguments to be valid evidence.

In any case: if the universe was created by God, because all things must have been created, then what created God, and what created whatever created God? Why can we not, according to your logic, cut out the middleman? - why did a God have to create the universe

t is the unchanging Source of change
So I assume you're a deist then?

He is knowable, and possible to experience.

But can Science bring God down to a science, no.


But can you see God , yes, however no man has ever seen God though, in his fullness that is
If he is knowable and "possible to experience," then he is observable and within the realm of scientific observation. God is not somehow exempt from this.

God does exist, but you choose not to believe.
That was the most magnificent cop out I've seen on an internet forum for a long time.

You have a five sense bias
There's no such thing.

If the Bible is right about what it says about us sinners than why would God be wrong?
Because you assume the bible is right. This is circular logic in its finest form.

I suggest you will probably not be able to put forward credible evidence that there has been substantial "perversion" of the relevant texts. I am not suggesting that there are no "errors", but you are making quite a claim here, and I suspect you will not be able to support (any more than I could "prove" that the texts are uncorrupted).
That's fair. "Serious error," which can result in grievous misinterpretation, is probably a better term than perversion, because it may not have been translated incorrectly on purpose, and any evidence that it was is merely circumstantial ("the RCC translated it to fulfill their agenda" and so forth).

On the matter of God being here in the flesh, I think we should be careful about our expectations in this respect. While I certainly understand the desire to "see God in the flesh", as it were, the fact that we don't is not really evidence that God does not exist. There may be any number of reasons why God remains "hidden" at this time.
Sure, but I am not an antitheist - presented with evidence for a God, I would certainly believe in his existence. Results for a test which try to prove the existence of something unseen do not come back with "it doesn't exist" but "inconclusive," meaning that we have no substantial reason to believe that it does exist, but at the same time, it very well might. The aether as a theory related to relativity was never formally "disproven," but Einstein rendered it superfluous - it might exist, but we've no reason to believe that it does when we have an explanation that better explains the observed phenomena, namely special relativity (this was before we flew space shuttles to the moon and beyond; the physics tends to disagree with the aether now).
 
Seeing "the invisible" seems a bit of a paradox doesn't it? Why does the Earth and the sky, and everything God has made, point to your God and not the gods of the Greeks or the Hindus?
The One God who made you, made you with the built-in capacity to recognize Him and His handiwork. His Spirit speaks through His creation. The inner acknowledgment that there is something or Someone superior and supernatural leads one to seek out God. He will be found, because He is chasing you.

Bottom line, however, is what will you do with the realization? You have a choice to follow up with God and receive what he has to offer, or to reject Him out of hand completely and receive what recompense that brings.

By the way, the gods of the Hindus or the Greeks never existed. Most are from the imagination of men and others are actual demons.
 
The One God who made you, made you with the built-in capacity to recognize Him and His handiwork.
Do you have scripture to back this up?
Bottom line, however, is what will you do with the realization?
Well, I would be incredibly jaded by the fact that this God does exist and yet the world remains the same. I would ask the God in plain speech "why," and he would answer me, and I would then go forth from there either praising or rejecting this living God depending on the answer he as given me.
You have a choice to follow up with God and receive what he has to offer, or to reject Him out of hand completely and receive what recompense that brings.
I consider Pascal's wager to be a ridiculous exercise.
By the way, the gods of the Hindus or the Greeks never existed. Most are from the imagination of men and others are actual demons.
I would say the same about the God of the Christians and the Jews, but I will probably receive another infraction if I do.
 
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