Ye shall know the truth... absolute proof that the Bible is the word of God !

[francisdesales]

Well if you consider things like Abraham offering his only begotten son on the mountain, or him sending his eldest servant to find a bride for his only begotten son... and countless other stories as vague... then sure..

Glad to see you agree though.. I would think that most Christians would rejoice in this type of thing.

Well, I certainly don't want to argue about the "vagueness" with a fellow Christian, that can only result in bringing another's faith down. Nothing good can be gained from arguing that. Once a person is Christian, we easily make the connections and see the proof. They stir within us God's continuing action in the world, His foresight and His plan. So for a Christian, it certainly is helpful for our faith.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Predicting the specific ancestry, place of birth, form of death, and date of death hundreds of years before the events take place can not be considered "vague."

Like I said, nothing good can come from arguing this with another Christian. I don't feel like I have to be right over bringing another Christian's faith in the Lord down...

For me personally, it is not a major factor in my faith. I understand if it is for others.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Well, I certainly don't want to argue about the "vagueness" with a fellow Christian, that can only result in bringing another's faith down. Nothing good can be gained from arguing that. Once a person is Christian, we easily make the connections and see the proof. They stir within us God's continuing action in the world, His foresight and His plan. So for a Christian, it certainly is helpful for our faith.

Regards

That's fine.. if you consider all OT prophecy to be vague, then you're entitled to that.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, I have heard the "prophesy" proof, and to us, it aids in our belief. However, aren't the prophesies relatively vague? I believe God made them that way so that we would require faith to believe. If they were "proof", where we had no choice but to assent, it is no longer faith. Isn't that the definition of faith in Hebrews?

If the proofs are "obvious", the Jews certainly were in a position to all KNOW that Jesus was the Messiah. However, He only subtly reveals Himself, relying on the faith of the hearer, whether it touches their heart or not. If the prophesies were less vague and it was certain that Jesus fit into all of them, the Jews would have no choice BUT to assent, just like "it is light outside when the sun comes up". No one can argue that. We must assent to it. Prophesies, by their nature, are vague, giving the hearer the opportunity to believe - or not.

They are only "proof" to the believer.

Regards

Yes, Dan. 2 & Dan. 7 seem to be very vague to 'some'! See 1 John 4:6 for why that is forum.

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

That's fine.. if you consider all OT prophecy to be vague, then you're entitled to that.

Like i said, it is better if i don't defend my position and we'll leave it at that.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, Dan. 2 & Dan. 7 seem to be very vague to 'some'! See 1 John 4:6 for why that is forum.

--Elijah

That's the nature of prophesy.

To include the book of Revelation.

 

[Eventide]

That's the nature of prophesy.

To include the book of Revelation.

Well did the Catholic church think that the Revelation was vague when it embraced the doctrine of Amillennialism.. ?

 

[francisdesales]

Well did the Catholic church think that the Revelation was vague when it embraced the doctrine of Amillennialism.. ?

This is not dogmatic teaching, first of all. However, it would seem that since the Kingdom is not refering to a physical place, but God within our hearts, the central message is spiritual, not an effort to figure out the political future. Thus, the vagueness and veiled remarks to the-then current leaders in which Christian readers would make the connection between the political and the spiritual (which is how one ordinarily has any sense of the spiritual, in the first place, through the visible and known)

Jesus is reigning now with the Father. He will remain with His Church until the end of time. The millenium began with Pentacost, as Peter reveals by citing Joel. Thus, the Kingdom is the spreading of the Good News, not a political kingdom.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

This is not dogmatic teaching, first of all. However, it would seem that since the Kingdom is not refering to a physical place, but God within our hearts, the central message is spiritual, not an effort to figure out the political future. Thus, the vagueness and veiled remarks to the-then current leaders in which Christian readers would make the connection between the political and the spiritual (which is how one ordinarily has any sense of the spiritual, in the first place, through the visible and known)

Jesus is reigning now with the Father. He will remain with His Church until the end of time. The millenium began with Pentacost, as Peter reveals by citing Joel. Thus, the Kingdom is the spreading of the Good News, not a political kingdom.

Regards

A couple of comments.. first of which is that the Lord Jesus Christ said plainly that His kingdom is not of this world.. and we know that it's physical and not just spiritual because Rev 11 tells us that there will come a time when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. we also know that the god of this present evil world is Satan, who blinds those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ..

So does the Catholic church teach that Rev 11 has already been fulfilled, or that it will be fulfilled in the future.. ?

 

[francisdesales]

A couple of comments.. first of which is that the Lord Jesus Christ said plainly that His kingdom is not of this world.. and we know that it's physical and not just spiritual because Rev 11 tells us that there will come a time when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. we also know that the god of this present evil world is Satan, who blinds those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ..

So does the Catholic church teach that Rev 11 has already been fulfilled, or that it will be fulfilled in the future.. ?

It seems that my side comment about Revelation will be the new topic!

Very well. Revelation 11 can just as easily point to the fact that national politics means nothing in the Kingdom - which corresponds to Jesus' teachings. People of all nations shall become parts of THE KINGDOM, without regard for national ethnicity. This was realized in the catholic church of the first few centuries, was it not? Even the NT has its vestiges present, as Paul's letters reach out throughout the ancient Mediterranean without concern for national boundaries...

That satan remains in the world is obvious.

The "Catholic Church" does not have an "official stance" on Revelation 11. I have several extensive commentaries on these books - but there is lattitude on what we find as acceptable in these verses. Most, in the spirit of the literary genre that the Apocalypse is written, see these verses as the "sign of the times" that are present in each age of the Church - age of persecution, age of God sending His witnesses, age of "the world" rejoicing at the "witnesses" killed, and the "earthquake", God's subsequent judgment and presence in the aftermath.

Much of the language is symbolic, such as the two witnesses, the city, the earthquake, seven angels, and the beast. In my opinion, it is folly to attempt to try to place each of these first century symbols into the context of the 21st century political scene. They are meant to lift our spirits, to reassure us that God IS HERE AMONG US, even when there doesn't seem to be hope and the world is persecuting us - and God doesn't seem to be doing anything about it...

But He does and will. So be patient and stand fast to your faith. That is the overall message that the Church teaches on this entire book. However, it does not expell people if they believe the literal sense of this book.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

It seems that my side comment about Revelation will be the new topic!

There's a lot of NT scripture which is prophetic and certainly applicable to the thread.

Very well. Revelation 11 can just as easily point to the fact that national politics means nothing in the Kingdom - which corresponds to Jesus' teachings. People of all nations shall become parts of THE KINGDOM, without regard for national ethnicity. This was realized in the catholic church of the first few centuries, was it not? Even the NT has its vestiges present, as Paul's letters reach out throughout the ancient Mediterranean without concern for national boundaries...

That satan remains in the world is obvious.

The "Catholic Church" does not have an "official stance" on Revelation 11. I have several extensive commentaries on these books - but there is lattitude on what we find as acceptable in these verses. Most, in the spirit of the literary genre that the Apocalypse is written, see these verses as the "sign of the times" that are present in each age of the Church - age of persecution, age of God sending His witnesses, age of "the world" rejoicing at the "witnesses" killed, and the "earthquake", God's subsequent judgment and presence in the aftermath.

Much of the language is symbolic, such as the two witnesses, the city, the earthquake, seven angels, and the beast. In my opinion, it is folly to attempt to try to place each of these first century symbols into the context of the 21st century political scene. They are meant to lift our spirits, to reassure us that God IS HERE AMONG US, even when there doesn't seem to be hope and the world is persecuting us - and God doesn't seem to be doing anything about it...

But He does and will. So be patient and stand fast to your faith. That is the overall message that the Church teaches on this entire book. However, it does not expell people if they believe the literal sense of this book.

Regards

I think that the Revelation (or unveiling) is largely prophetic and pertains to the future.. ie, the things which shall be hereafter.. I was just wondering what the CC stance is on these things.

 

[RoadDebris]

The bible is the Word of God because our community of faith believes that it is.

Oy vey! Truth is not subject to anyone's belief. Rational people understand this.

 

[francisdesales]

Oy vey! Truth is not subject to anyone's belief. Rational people understand this.

You are confusing "truth" with "belief". And I am not advocating relativism...

All religious communities BELIEVE that their "scriptures" are from God. GOD HIMSELF doesn't come down and tell us "hey, this is my Word, this particular collection of books. Not those ones. Just these ones..." Thus, there is an element of faith that exists in determining the truth claims made by the variety of religions. WE trust that the Apostles gave us the truth of what happened at the tomb. Circumstances surrounding their witness give us a relative certainty that they were telling the truth. But that "truth claim" is based upon the witness of other people - and we weren't there.

When a person reads a set of Scriptures, whether the Koran, the Torah, or the Book of Mormon, a variety of factors will take place that for HIM, this book is "truth" or "not truth". That person will identify his decision as truth - and that is what is important to that person. Not finding the ever-elusive "PROOF", since it doesn't exist. And God doesn't desire that it does - He desires a man have faith in Him. Could not God infuse into everyone's mind that the Christian Scriptures are Truth and they need to seek no longer, offering unassailable certainty?

God allows an element of doubt to exist in everything. Thus, our faith, despite that doubt, our turning to Him, even when it doesn't seem He is active in the world and their are a variety of truth claims - is pleasing in His eyes.

Thus, the idea that the Scriptures are from God are based upon the communities' belief that they are from God. If they are from God, they are truth.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think that the Revelation (or unveiling) is largely prophetic and pertains to the future.. ie, the things which shall be hereafter.. I was just wondering what the CC stance is on these things.

For the most part, the Catholic Church teaches the very general idea of an end-times scenario, but focuses more on our OWN "end-times", the moment we approach our own end of life on this earth - for no one knows when that will occur. Much of the teachings of life after death do stem from Revelation, our own judgment, final judgment and the condemnation of sinners and so forth. But we don't take very seriously the attempts to match verses with what is going on in the political world today. In every time and place, we are told to come out of the world and yield to Christ. Even when things look bleak, God will prevail.

Regards

 

[RoadDebris]

And I am not advocating relativism...

I'm glad to hear it.

Thus, there is an element of faith that exists in determining the truth claims made by the variety of religions.

With the exception of self-awareness, there is an element of faith in everything we believe. The rational accept as true things which are supported by the evidence which don't violate the Laws of Logic.

WE trust that the Apostles gave us the truth of what happened at the tomb. Circumstances surrounding their witness give us a relative certainty that they were telling the truth. But that "truth claim" is based upon the witness of other people - and we weren't there.

I wasn't on the moon when Neil Armstrong landed there either, but it takes a lot more faith to believe the moon landings were staged than it does to accept that man has actually walked on the moon. Likewise, since all the evidence points to the Gospels and the Epistles as being true and since this belief does not violate the Laws of Logic it's most reasonable to accept them as the inspired word of God.

When a person reads a set of Scriptures, whether the Koran, the Torah, or the Book of Mormon, a variety of factors will take place that for HIM, this book is "truth" or "not truth". That person will identify his decision as truth - and that is what is important to that person.

Unfortunately, one of the factors present is a lack of reasoning skills. Mormonism is a perfect example. This false religion teaches that God is the son of a God, who is the son of a God, who is the son of a God, and so on, and so on. This is an infinite regression, a logical fallacy. It's not possible for this state of affairs to be actual because logic is integral to all existence; universal. Any statement of belief that violates logic is false. People don't understand this, or just don't care and accept counterfeit gospels because that is what they want to do, reality notwithstanding.

Not finding the ever-elusive "PROOF", since it doesn't exist. And God doesn't desire that it does - He desires a man have faith in Him. Could not God infuse into everyone's mind that the Christian Scriptures are Truth and they need to seek no longer, offering unassailable certainty?

God never asks us to have blind faith in Him. He always relates to us through our intellect.

God allows an element of doubt to exist in everything.

Is that true? If so, do you doubt your own existence? You believe it's possible that your are totally non-existent? If not then your statement is false.

Thus, our faith, despite that doubt, our turning to Him, even when it doesn't seem He is active in the world and their are a variety of truth claims - is pleasing in His eyes.

Speak for yourself. I see him sovereignly choose to act and not act in the world all the time.

Thus, the idea that the Scriptures are from God are based upon the communities' belief that they are from God. If they are from God, they are truth.

No, the origin of the idea is from God himself and is backed by the evidence and logic. Some may slavishly follow the indoctrination of their religion (ahem!) but the claim that the idea of the Bible being divinely inspired finds it's origin in man and not God himself is antithetical to Christianity.

 

[Eventide]

For the most part, the Catholic Church teaches the very general idea of an end-times scenario, but focuses more on our OWN "end-times", the moment we approach our own end of life on this earth - for no one knows when that will occur. Much of the teachings of life after death do stem from Revelation, our own judgment, final judgment and the condemnation of sinners and so forth. But we don't take very seriously the attempts to match verses with what is going on in the political world today. In every time and place, we are told to come out of the world and yield to Christ. Even when things look bleak, God will prevail.

Regards

So what I'm hearing here Francis is that the Catholic church is no different than anyone else when it comes down to the word of God.. you don't know it all and don't have all the answers... just like everyone else.. we all form opinions as to what these things mean.

 

[francisdesales]

So what I'm hearing here Francis is that the Catholic church is no different than anyone else when it comes down to the word of God.. you don't know it all and don't have all the answers... just like everyone else.. we all form opinions as to what these things mean.

Do you agree that no one knows everything about God's Word?

When interpreting Scriptures, there are a variety of senses. The literal, the metaphorical or allegorical, the moral and the anagogical (end times reference). The Church has not put out an official commentary for verse-by-verse order. This is because the last three, the so-called "spiritual sense", are subject to interpretation by the Church of today, as well as the past. Allegory can change its meaning, depending upon who is reading it - the Church of today or the tenth century or the first century. We believe God can speak to us TODAY through the spiritual sense of Scriptures, not just the literal.

And thus, the Church realizes that Revelation is not just speaking to us literally, but also spiritually, by allegory, morally, and anagogically. Our culture, environment and our personal situation will often move us to see God's Word in a slightly different way than another person. As long as these subjective interpretations do not contradict objective revelations, they are all certainly within the realm of belief and guidance for our lives.

Surprisingly, it would seem, the Church is quite flexible on passages of Scriptures, when looking at the spiritual level of interpretation.

Do we have all the answers? No. But we rely on it as a guide to know God and HIs work in our world, even today, not just for the first Christians.

Regards

 

[RoadDebris]

Spiritual? Can you define that? It sounds like you are saying the RCC can interpret scripture in a way that's not subject to logic. I mean, that would be a really honest confession and everything, but I'm surprised if you are actually acknowledging this. Are you?

 

[francisdesales]

Likewise, since all the evidence points to the Gospels and the Epistles as being true and since this belief does not violate the Laws of Logic it's most reasonable to accept them as the inspired word of God.

Of course.

Unfortunately, one of the factors present is a lack of reasoning skills. Mormonism is a perfect example. This false religion teaches that God is the son of a God, who is the son of a God, who is the son of a God, and so on, and so on. This is an infinite regression, a logical fallacy. It's not possible for this state of affairs to be actual because logic is integral to all existence; universal. Any statement of belief that violates logic is false. People don't understand this, or just don't care and accept counterfeit gospels because that is what they want to do, reality notwithstanding.

One bit of advice, take it or leave it....

I have been posting for nearly a decade on a variety of Christian forums, and have learned that the best logical and reasonable argument does NOT trump emotional beliefs held by another. I could point out the facts of baptism and its necessity, take quotes from the Catechism, logically explain everything in a reasonable fashion, but STILL have someone completely miss the boat because they are emotionally committed to believing that the Catholic Church is wrong on practically everything. You end up beating your head against a wall, and that's a fact from experience.

God never asks us to have blind faith in Him. He always relates to us through our intellect.

I didn't suggest otherwise.

Is that true? If so, do you doubt your own existence? You believe it's possible that your are totally non-existent? If not then your statement is false.

A fallacious assumption, because the context of my comment was not on literally "EVERYTHING", but on the topic of this OP.

Speak for yourself. I see him sovereignly choose to act and not act in the world all the time.

It goes without saying that I do speak for myself. Did I suggest that I spoke for you? Why are you being so combative? Ever since our discussions began, you have a very strange way of speaking to another Christian, for someone who CLAIMS to be a sheep who hears the voice of the Shepherd.

I am not here to "win points", but to share my faith. That is a deeply personal choice, and there is nothing entirely right or wrong. There is no need for your attitude with me. If you disagree with my beliefs, fine. I won't lose sleep over it.

No, the origin of the idea is from God himself and is backed by the evidence and logic.

To the first part, you provide no objective evidence. To the second part, science is also founded on "evidence and logic", and have been shown to be WRONG later on. What we hold to be true is based upon FAITH.

Some may slavishly follow the indoctrination of their religion (ahem!)

I don't slavishly follow anything, if that is the intent of the hypocritical comment. I willingly, by choice after much reasoning and contemplation, worship God as a Catholic. You worship God (slavishly or not) as a Calvinist, following the dictates and doctrines of Jean Calvin.

but the claim that the idea of the Bible being divinely inspired finds it's origin in man and not God himself is antithetical to Christianity.

No its not. That's your false opinion. You clearly are not familiar with the process with how something BECOMES IDENTIFIED as "Sacred Scriptures". The New Testament has no divinely inspired TAble of Contents, nor are the individual books self-authenticating as from God, except perhaps the Apocalypse. Not even the Gospels claim to be written or inspired by God.

We believe the Bible is from God because we believe the Church's identification of it as such, that same Church that gave us the witness of the Risen Lord.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Do you agree that no one knows everything about God's Word?

Yes

Do we have all the answers? No. But we rely on it as a guide to know God and HIs work in our world, even today, not just for the first Christians.

Regards

So do you believe that this is true for interpreting any of the scriptures, that they're not restricted to what your assembly happens to believe about them..?