You Are Without Excuse' Quath & Others.

[Orion]

But getting harsh won't change Quath, unless I'm speaking out of turn. To Quath (again, another good point, in his point of view), the Quran says that all Christians are going to hell without embracing Allah. :-?

I think that is the crux of the matter to people like Quath. When they don't see Christianity as any different than what the Muslim believes, what good does it do to even speak harshly to them about something they may see as just words from some guy thousands of years ago that is no more supernatural than the words recorded from any other religion's god(dess)es.

 

[Relic]

It's difficult to have hope and faith among those who have already given up on hope or have never had it in the first place.

Yes, it is so true!

And come to think about the characteristics of ... HOPE


Romans 8:24-25
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.



I wonder.... maybe the atheists, or the agnostics lack of, or teetering belief and hope comes from a lack of patience, a lack of persistence. There is a lack of hope because they are lacking in the discipline of patience and persistence.

Hope, patience, persistence, they are all tied together in order for faith to thrive. They are all ingredients of faith which leads to belief(conclusion). I'd say an example would be similar to that of making a chocolate cake.... if you leave out a certain ingredient.... it just doesn't taste right. It's not a genuine chocolate cake. So it is with the case of Faith... if you leave out the ingredients necessary to have Faith, it just isn't going to be right. Faith without hope, patience and persistence, can't manifest.

Some more thoughts to consider
these "key ingredients"
Having (taking on) hope and patience, leads to "building the characteristic" of faith. We are told to rejoice in our hope and to have (take on) patience. Think about it... How can a person hope when they hold onto despair? So it's a trade off, we have a choice, we can hold onto feelings of despair, or we can give sacrifices of praise. Praise keeps hope alive! Despair kills it! So then, how can faith thrive or grow strong when it is surrounded by a lack of patience and lack of persistence which is a form of despair.

Romans 12:12
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; ...


In scripture it is stated that we are to give Sacrifices of Praise. So then, I see it this way.... as we remember to "rejoice in Hope".... and as we do so, (sometimes we must make a sacrifice of a mood in order to get to this place of praise ) I would say, then, that in doing so, it gives way for patience to then manifest and abide.
It's a process of growth, liken to "a blossoming, of a character" so to speak. We become that which we think! And many times... we must sacrifice our "negatives, the doubts, the despair", the lack of patience, etc., to make way for the opposite of it.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

In order to "Have" something we must "do" something to acquire it. In order to make a specific characteristic our own me must take it on as our own. Many times.... we need to practice a thing over and over again, before it becomes a part of us. No differently than a musician must practice to make playing music a habit, a perfected habit. IF we hold onto thoughts long enough without a change of mind they are made manifest according to the spirit of them.

Hope is something we grab onto... regardless of the tribulations that come to try and steal it away from us. Hope wouldn't be hope anymore if it already arrived. Hope comes before the manifestation of anything!
Far too many people give up on hope way too soon because they have disposed of patience. Remember, We are saved by hope, as is stated in Romans 8:24-25 in the above scripture.

We, holding onto the promises of the "Holy" Spirit, remain in hope of Holy spirit manifestations. It is not by holding onto the things of the spirit of despair, doubt, impatience, and lack of persistence/giving up. NO, because by holding onto those negative thoughts we become what we hold onto. The "I am, that I am" that God describes in Exodus, means more than most people realize.

It may at first be a confusing concept to some, but it is something to think about rather than not

.





Romans 15:13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

 

[sisterchristian]

But getting harsh won't change Quath, unless I'm speaking out of turn. To Quath (again, another good point, in his point of view), the Quran says that all Christians are going to hell without embracing Allah. :-?

I think that is the crux of the matter to people like Quath. When they don't see Christianity as any different than what the Muslim believes, what good does it do to even speak harshly to them about something they may see as just words from some guy thousands of years ago that is no more supernatural than the words recorded from any other religion's god(dess)es.

I think the best remedy for an unbeliever is simply PRAYER. That's how I came to the Lord, by my sister faithfully praying and fasting for me for weeks! Finally God brought me to a point in my life where I just found myself crying out to him, not really realizing that I was doing that, but God knew my heart at that moment and came in and saved me, I love that song ALABASTER BOX it reminds me of myself. So when people try to tell me that there is no God, I just want to say to them YOU WEREN'T THERE THE NIGHT HE FOUND ME, YOU DID NOT FEEL WHAT I FELT WHEN HE PUT HIS LOVING ARMS AROUND ME. Thank you Jesus! My point is... that sometimes you have to stop casting your pearls before swine.

 

[Rhetorickety]

Love them with truth and you won't love them to hell.

I'm not exactly sure how to properly preach. What I was thinking was that it is important to not try to purely convince people of the truth of Christ with the wise words of men, so to drain the cross of Christ of its power. Uh, that is basically me paraphrasing a verse from something Paul wrote, so it might not be completely as he put it, which would change the meaning in a very detailed way.

Anyway, if we start to judge others as worthy of hell, which is to condemn, I think, we start to pour out judgement on our own heads, or at least hold judgement above them, since this judgement would seem to be circumstancial. This would indeed give Satan a large foothold. Now I do not want that to happen. Neither do I want others to think that we judge people in such a manner; this would greatly deter our efforts to bring them to salvation.

Quath does not know what he is doing, and no matter how much people will mock us, they know not of the glory of the Lord. Brothers, we must strengthen the church, to ensure its safety, and what strengthens the church? The word of God, and even moreso, doing the will of God. We must first go back to the base things, because some us are infants in Christ, and we must be very careful, so as not to cause people to stumble on the account, because they do not completely understand it.

Quath, I do not judge you. But how to reach you? I will pray to God, and I ask the others to pray.

 

[Featherbop]

This is a Christian Forum, not a Skeptic's Forum. All comments that are posted in direct oppositon to Almighty God, Christianity, Christians, the Preaching of the Gospel, and/or any Tenets of the Christian Faith are considered hostile to this forum and are a violation of the Terms of Service. This post will be edited to remove any and all such remarks. Any further comments considered hostile to the Christian Faith will bring formal warnings.

First of all, the threats are empty. Edited You're going to convince a skeptic of hell as much as I'm going to convince you that a purple lizard monster is going to come and eat you. Not scary and convincing if I can't produce the monster.

Edited

Finally, stunts like this reinforce skeptical thought. Using Edited lack of evidence for extraordinary claims, and general Editedagreement with believers is probably-and I'm going out on a limb here-going to lead a skeptic to conclude the religion/deity/belief is false and worthless.

For a skeptic, this kind of behavior has the opposite effect of being convincing: It does not make sense that an omnipotent, omniscient god who supposedly wants people to avoid hell would not personally inform people of the danger with direct evidence. Edited

 

[Fnerb]

Finally, stunts like this reinforce skeptical thought. Using cheap emotional manipulation, lack of logical consistency, lack of evidence for extraordinary claims, and general lack of rationality and agreement with believers is probably-and I'm going out on a limb here-going to lead a skeptic to conclude the religion/deity/belief is false and worthless.

I don't entirely agree with this. I honestly don't think as you call them, "cheap emotional manipulation" or "lack of evidence for the extraordinary claims" are the means that lead skeptic's to the conclusion you have suggested. Are they / do they do that to you? It would appear so because you have already made up your mind that believing in Jesus is worthless and that He doesn't exist. God doesn't force his way into anyone's hearts nor into anyone lives.

For a skeptic, this kind of behavior has the opposite effect of being convincing: It does not make sense that an omnipotent, omniscient god who supposedly wants people to avoid hell would not personally inform people of the danger with direct evidence. It is absurd to think it would rely on humans who have no evidence and have no more power than to threaten non-believers because they don't believe without evidence.

He has given us all the warning that we need in the Bible. And in all honesty, your argument doesn't really hold water for me. Would it be helpful for many to have Jesus walking on this earth right now? Sure. However even during the 33 years he was on this earth, people still rejected him.

So would you really believe it even if he was in the flesh? Or would you just shrug him off?

 

[Lewis]

But getting harsh won't change Quath, unless I'm speaking out of turn. To Quath (again, another good point, in his point of view), the Quran says that all Christians are going to hell without embracing Allah. :-?

I think that is the crux of the matter to people like Quath. When they don't see Christianity as any different than what the Muslim believes, what good does it do to even speak harshly to them about something they may see as just words from some guy thousands of years ago that is no more supernatural than the words recorded from any other religion's god(dess)es.

No it won't change Quath' but you cannot sugar coat anything with people like that. Let me say something sometimes when I tell somebody what the Bible says' they tell me that I am being harsh. But the Bible said it' I didn't. The Bible does not sugar coat anything. It tells you to be loving and it also tells you to get with people when you have to. Fire and Brimstone' is sometimes needed. Then most of the times it is not. It all depends. The secular world thinks that Christians are supposed to be a bunch of passive punks. Do you think Jesus was ? How did He act when He went through the temple that time' turning over tables and driving people out. He had to get harsh. And sometimes He had to lay out the apostles.

 

[sisterchristian]

No it won't change Quath' but you cannot sugar coat anything with people like that. Let me say something sometimes when I tell somebody what the Bible says' they tell me that I am being harsh. But the Bible said it' I didn't. The Bible does not sugar coat anything. It tells you to be loving and it also tells you to get with people when you have to. Fire and Brimstone' is sometimes needed. Then most of the times it is not. It all depends. The secular world thinks that Christians are supposed to be a bunch of passive punks. Do you think Jesus was ? How did He act when He went through the temple that time' turning over tables and driving people out. He had to get harsh. And sometimes He had to lay out the apostles.

YOU GO BOY!!! :smt066

 

[Featherbop]

I don't entirely agree with this. I honestly don't think as you call them, "cheap emotional manipulation" or "lack of evidence for the extraordinary claims" are the means that lead skeptic's to the conclusion you have suggested.

Lack of extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims is not going to convince a skeptic. They will probably need very good evidence for something supernatural. The cheap emotional manipulation does not in and of itself lead to a conclusion I don't think, save for showing how devoid of reason the claim is perhaps.

Are they / do they do that to you?

Pretty much. I need extraordinary evidence for supernatural claims. Threatening eternal torment is not going to be effective on me, because without the evidence I could not have a sincere belief.

It would appear so because you have already made up your mind that believing in Jesus is worthless and that He doesn't exist.

I don't accept the supernatural claims about the man, no. I do not know much about the historical Jesus though. As far as having made up my mind, everything is suceptible to evidence.

God doesn't force his way into anyone's hearts nor into anyone lives.

Unfortunately, many theists seem to have a problem being forceful themselves though. But I appreciate those who are respectful of others.

So would you really believe it even if he was in the flesh? Or would you just shrug him off?

God/Jesus would have to manifest physically, then perform miracles such as in religious texts, and do some physically impossible things. After that, consider me a theist.

 

[sisterchristian]

God/Jesus would have to manifest physically, then perform miracles such as in religious texts, and do some physically impossible things. After that, consider me a theist.

Well let me just give you a little bit of advice here, when you're left here during the tribulation period because of your unbelief (that is if you don't die first cause than you'd be in deep doodoo) whatever you do, DO NOT take the mark of the beast on you! :o

 

[Featherbop]

Well let me just give you a little bit of advice here, when you're left here during the tribulation period because of your unbelief (that is if you don't die first cause than you'd be in deep doodoo) whatever you do, DO NOT take the mark of the beast on you! :o

You take care, too.

 

[sisterchristian]

You take care, too.

Always! :wink:

 

[Fnerb]

Pretty much. I need extraordinary evidence for supernatural claims. Threatening eternal torment is not going to be effective on me, because without the evidence I could not have a sincere belief.

I can see the evidence every day. Everywhere I turn, when I really get down and think about it, screams supernatural and miraculous. Life in general gives Him testimony. I cannot nor will get into specificts, we have an entire forum dedicated to that. In my mind, everything screams of a creator.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to how confident you feel. Have you ever gambled before? Let's look at the two scenarios.

First, let's say you are right - there is no God and those of us who believe are just wasting our time. We die, we become fertilizer, that's it. What have I lost? Nothing. What have I gained? Nothing.

Second, let's say I'm right - there is a God and judgment day does come. What do I gain? Everything. What do you lose? Everything.

So you see, I am not missing out on anything by believing in Jesus. In fact, I would argue that from a pure secular standpoint, my life is better.

Featherbop, I hope you come to have serious doubts ... about your doubts. :-D

 

[Featherbop]

I can see the evidence every day. Everywhere I turn, when I really get down and think about it, screams supernatural and miraculous. Life in general gives Him testimony. I cannot nor will get into specificts, we have an entire forum dedicated to that. In my mind, everything screams of a creator.

I used to believe that too. I believed mere existence screamed of an obvious creator, and I couldn't stand the atheists who didn't believe in god.

However, I've come to realize several problems: If the universe is evidence of a creator, then you don't need faith in it. If you need faith, then mere existence cannot be evidence of a god, because you need faith. I find that theists and creationists usually try to play it both ways depending on what kind of person they are talking to. If a person will accept a god by faith, evidence does not matter. If a person does not have a faith, then they try to use the evidence from creation argument.

I've also realized that if you want to claim evidence, god needs to come visit, take credit and show us the methods and creative power. Assuming a creator has the power and intellect to create a universe and wants skeptics to believe, then personally introducing itself is one of the best ways to accomplish convincing someone. Should not be difficult, and should be desirable to do.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to how confident you feel.

I have confidence in evidence, because it is one of, if not the best tool we have for determining fact from fiction.

First, let's say you are right - there is no God and those of us who believe are just wasting our time. We die, we become fertilizer, that's it. What have I lost? Nothing. What have I gained? Nothing.

Pascal's Wager.

If you believed in a god, then died, and did not get an afterlife because that god is not real, then you lost a life to a lie.

Plus, I am not saying there are no gods outright, I am saying I do not have evidence that any exist.

Second, let's say I'm right - there is a God and judgment day does come. What do I gain? Everything. What do you lose? Everything.

False dilemma. You are assuming that there are only two extremes and no other possibilities.

Many gods and afterlifes could exist. Allah, Yahweh, Odin, Thor, Vishnu, and a whole host of others. Or none could exist.

You have just as many possibilities of being wrong and losing everything.

So you see, I am not missing out on anything by believing in Jesus. In fact, I would argue that from a pure secular standpoint, my life is better.

Well, I think there are plenty of people who say they need certain beliefs to make their lives better, regardless. Maybe for some people that is the case. It is not for me.

If I cannot have evidence, and then confidence that X belief is true, then the belief cannot be sincere and I would be wasting life on something untrue.

Featherbop, I hope you come to have serious doubts ... about your doubts.

Everything is susceptible to evidence.

 

[Fnerb]

Well Featherbop all I can say is that I'm thankful you haven't completely shut your heart to Him. :-D

 

[Featherbop]

Well Featherbop all I can say is that I'm thankful you haven't completely shut your heart to Him. :-D

Heh. Well putting it in those terms, my "heart" doesn't really enter into it. My mind is open to evidence that would determine what I think, but my heart doesn't determine what I think and believe. It just isn't reliable. You know, my mentioning cheap appeals to emotion and all. :fadein:

 

[Rhetorickety]

No sir, nihilism is not practical.

 

[Featherbop]

No sir, nihilism is not practical.

And water is wet. Point?

 

[Atonement]

Heh. Well putting it in those terms, my "heart" doesn't really enter into it. My mind is open to evidence that would determine what I think, but my heart doesn't determine what I think and believe. It just isn't reliable. You know, my mentioning cheap appeals to emotion and all. :fadein:

but my heart doesn't determine what I think and believe. It just isn't reliable

HUH???


I'm sorry, what kinda remark is that? Have you ever been in love? Do you have kids? Do you know how to discipline children and love them? You may ask what my point is.. Any parent (I'm speaking as a parent here), knows that this remark was just silly.

How do you know that you're in love with your spouce, Huh?

Have you ever heard the phrase "blinded by love?"

Have you ever wanted to beat the crap out of someone so bad it hurt because they stabbed you in the back, ripped you off etc?

Have you ever ran out in the middle of the street because you saw your baby that was about to get hit by a car, but you pulled them out of the street and you put no 2nd thought into it?

Don't come here and tell us that our hearts don't feed thoughts into our brain, because this is what you are saying, that it does not happen to you... And anyone who believes that should be in a padded room... Just like I know you don't believe it.. Because it's just foolish... You think from your heart every single day with out you even noticing it..

 

[Featherbop]

I'm sorry, what kinda remark is that?

What has you all up in arms? I'll explain further.

The metaphorical heart is not reliable for deciding what to believe and what to think. It is, as I understand most people to mean, the part of a person that is emotional. This concept of the heart apparently comes from the ancient Egyptian belief that the physical heart is the seat of the mind. Today of course, the brain has been demonstrated to be the residence of the mind. However, the heart metaphor has persisted.

Emotions are in the brain of course. Reason comes from the brain as well. I dought any human could separate the two, so of course a person is going to have emotions and think emotionally at least some of the time. I understand that emotions have some value, such as playing a part in making moral decisions. So thinking emotionally may not always be a useless thing. It does not have have value in separating fact from falsity, because it gives no way of differentiating the two. So if I were to think emotionally and determine what to think and believe, then I could easily believe in something logically inconsistent and without supporting evidence. I am not going to do that because it is unreliable.

Don't come here and tell us that our hearts don't feed thoughts into our brain, because this is what you are saying, that it does not happen to you...

Our emotions do feed into our rational capacity. I'm not saying it doesn't. Nor am I saying I never think emotionally. Gee Whiz :smt083

What I've been talking about in this thread was that I'm not going to become theistic or religious through emotional feelings. Emotions have uses. Forming beliefs is not one of them. Or at least, I need something more reliable than that.