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You have to be born.....AGAIN?

I get the feeling that Nicodemus wasn't confused...

Like the Apostle Paul, Nicodemus was a Pharisee and as such, he knew scripture. I'd take it one step further and say that Nicodemus had much zeal for both scripture and YHVH. However, within the context of John 3, it was Nicodemus' interpretation of scripture to which Jesus is refering.

Ask yourself this. What would happen if you spent your whole life honestly and truly devoted to living the way God wanted you to live to find out that in the process, you missed the mark on the most important part? Wouldn't that prick your heart?.... Nicodemus had a choice to make, and further reading of Johns gospel, we see how Nicodemus responded to his heart being pricked.
 
Boanerges said:
These are just my thoughts on the subjects being discussed here.
Being born again. Never has there been such an important topic that has had such a wide variety of understandings. The following is my take on this and I respect rights of others to disagree.
What does it mean to be born again?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is tripartite- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God made man in His own image - tripartite - spirit, soul and body.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The day Adam ate the forbidden fruit his body did not die nor did his soul. Adam experienced a spiritual death that separated him from God and his children are born with that same condition




God would make a way for His fellowship with man to be restored and this way was prophesied by Ezekiel :

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



There had to be a cleansing of sin and a spiritual rebirth for man and God to once again meet and take those long walks in the garden.
Jesus Himself tells us that we cannot see, perceive or have any part in the Kingdom of God without this spiritual rebirth:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Unless a man be born of water (the natural birthing process of the body (breaking of the water bag) and the Spirit (the impartation of new spiritual life) He cannot enter into God's Kingdom. What is born of the flesh [(body), mans efforts] cannot please God nor stand in His presence.

We are given a new spiritual man or inner man made (anew) in God's image:
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This salvation experience or "born again" experience places new life in the believers by spiritual regeneration.
The soul (mind, will, intellect, emotions) must come in agreement with the spiritual revelation given by the Holy Spirit in the Word of God. As this soul is made new (in it's very life force) and every way of thinking it is become renewed and thinks, acts and believes the Word of God in every circumstance- this is the saving of the soul.


Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


As the spirit receives revelation, the mind is renewed and the body follows the thoughts of the renewed mind- this is a man who walks pleasing to God in every area of his life. He is now complete and mature following God's plan and purpose for his life and the power of the Living God flows freely in and through him.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.





Predestination;
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The God who knows all knows every heart. He knows all our choices and knows the beginning from the end. His Son died for all but all will not come though He desires them to. He sees a heart that will have Him and He molds every circumstance to bring that person to the place of surrender to Himself. Predestination is according to foreknowledge.

Many blessings in His most wonderful Name,
your brother Larry.

The day Adam ate the forbidden fruit his body did not die nor did his soul. Adam experienced a spiritual death that separated him from God and his children are born with that same condition

Actually Adam did die the day he ate,,,,,1 day to God is a 1,000 years to us.....
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam did not live to be a thousand,,,as a matter of fact no man did,,,so in all,,,Adam did die the same day he ate just like God said he would....

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
 
That is certainly one day of looking at it. Respectfully I would disagree with that of course. God was talking to Adam and telling him in terms that Adam understood. He also already declared that :
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Adam was certainly not God so to him the day (one morning and one evening) thou eat of it".
But there are certainly no hard feelings if you disagree.
Many blessings in His Name,
brother Larry.
 
Boanerges said:
That is certainly one day of looking at it. Respectfully I would disagree with that of course. God was talking to Adam and telling him in terms that Adam understood. He also already declared that :
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Adam was certainly not God so to him the day (one morning and one evening) thou eat of it".
But there are certainly no hard feelings if you disagree.
Many blessings in His Name,
brother Larry.


Hi brohter larry, it seems like we agree then on what born again is..but to be sure, you believe that a man's spirit has to be born,again, from the womb of a mother, with the regenerated spirit inside of him, is that correct?
 
Hi brohter larry, it seems like we agree then on what born again is..but to be sure, you believe that a man's spirit has to be born,again, from the womb of a mother, with the regenerated spirit inside of him, is that correct?[/quote]

Let me see if I can express my thoughts in a clearer manor:
We will get a new body later at the resurrection
He is saving our soul as our mind is renewed according to His Word and by the revelation of His Spirit.

To be born again (in my opinion) one must willingly accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ paid on his (or her behalf), this is a conscience choice. One is born once (physically) being spiritually dead (separated from God by sin) and must be born again to a new spiritual life by the Holy Spirit imparting this new life. This occurs as we submit to Christ as Savior and the very Spirit of God comes to dwell in our body.
 
Boanerges said:
Hi brohter larry, it seems like we agree then on what born again is..but to be sure, you believe that a man's spirit has to be born,again, from the womb of a mother, with the regenerated spirit inside of him, is that correct?

Let me see if I can express my thoughts in a clearer manor:
We will get a new body later at the resurrection
He is saving our soul as our mind is renewed according to His Word and by the revelation of His Spirit.

To be born again (in my opinion) one must willingly accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ paid on his (or her behalf), this is a conscience choice. One is born once (physically) being spiritually dead (separated from God by sin) and must be born again to a new spiritual life by the Holy Spirit imparting this new life. This occurs as we submit to Christ as Savior and the very Spirit of God comes to dwell in our body.[/quote]

Ah ok, then we dont agree...heheh.

I cant find any scriptural foundation that jesus comes into the body at the moment we say the 'sinners' prayer and our spirits and regenerates us. This spirit, was recreated on the cross, and taken to paradise, where we are born from above.
Another issue we disagree on is that we must by an action of our will accept the sacrifice of jesus christ. I think its precisely because we are born from above that we will accept the gospel. We accepted the sacrifice of jesus, when jesus was lifted up and he drew all man to him. We were elected an predestined to do that. The reason i believe this is simple. You cannot be a true witness to the saving grace of god, unless you were at the event. I cant be called to be a witness if i didnt witness the saving grace of jeuss on the cross. And so the gospel isnt 'new' news to the christians, it is good news.

Heneni
 
Boanerges said:
Hi brohter larry, it seems like we agree then on what born again is..but to be sure, you believe that a man's spirit has to be born,again, from the womb of a mother, with the regenerated spirit inside of him, is that correct?

Let me see if I can express my thoughts in a clearer manor:
We will get a new body later at the resurrection
He is saving our soul as our mind is renewed according to His Word and by the revelation of His Spirit.

To be born again (in my opinion) one must willingly accept the sacrifice Jesus Christ paid on his (or her behalf), this is a conscience choice. One is born once (physically) being spiritually dead (separated from God by sin) and must be born again to a new spiritual life by the Holy Spirit imparting this new life. This occurs as we submit to Christ as Savior and the very Spirit of God comes to dwell in our body.

Now you say that to be born again comes down to a conscience (conscious?) choice.

How would you interpret this then? John 1:13 'children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.'
 
We (as Christians)are indwelt by Christ:

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.



My thoughts on His saving grace- it was accomplished at the cross and I see it experientially every day. It is by His grace (unmerited favor ) that I experience a living relationship with my heavenly Father.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I am indeed born again from above as it is the Holy Spirit of God Himself that imparts this resurrection power in me:

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.




About free will and predestination:

One must understand the difference between God’s perfect will and His permissive will.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is One example would be :
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
While God is not willing that any should perish some will. That is either a direct contradiction to and against His will (which is impossible) or God allows them to disobey. The concept of choice and/or disobedience to God is not foreign to scripture:
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:






Predestination is only by foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Of our choices.


Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

A good simplified explanation of predestination is found here:


Predestination, a Horrible Decree or God's Omniscience?

There is usually much mysticism experienced when man discusses the subject of predestination. There are admittedly many nuances and various types of predestination taught by man. To address every flavor of predestination advanced by the various religions would be beyond the space limitations of this material. Therefore, I shall focus on the core issues of predestination.

Many have charged God with being a respecter of persons based on their understanding of predestination. However, the Bible plainly asserts and affirms God is no respecter of persons. "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said," we are told, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10: 34, see also Rom. 2: 6-11, Eph. 6: 9, Col. 3: 25, Jas. 2: 1). Any doctrine, then, that places God in a position of being an arbitrary respecter of persons is patently false. Not only did Peter declare that God is no respecter of persons, but he proceeds to unmistakably show those whom God accepts. "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Some confuse and equate Divine foreknowledge and foreordination:


"(1) Calvin's definition. Reprobation was, for Calvin, involved in election, and Divine foreknowledge and foreordination were taken to be identical. Calvin's mode of defining predestination was as the eternal degree of God, by which He has decided with Himself what is to become of each and every individual. For all, he maintains, are not created in like condition; but eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal condemnation for others. Calvin confesses that this is a 'horrible decree…'" (The International Standard Bible Enclyclopaedia, vol. 4, pg. 2436).

However, God can know a matter before hand without predetermining the matter to the point that the people (in this case) are excluded, as far as their will and participation are concerned (see more later). Some religionists, nonetheless, maintain such a radical view of predestination that in stressing the sovereignty of God, they have totally eliminated the will and role of man.

Our English word "predestinate" is from the Greek proonzo. "Pro, beforehand," W.E. Vine comments, "and honzo, denotes to mark out beforehand..., foreordain...." Indeed, predestination is a biblical subject: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son..." (Rom. 8: 29). Again, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will…" (Eph. 1: 4, 5).

Predestination as taught in the Bible. The scriptures teach the foreknowledge of God. God is able to "declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things are not yet done..." (Isa. 46: 10). Since God's scheme of redemption was planned from the original creation, it is obvious that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, etc. (I Pet. 1: 20, Eph. 1: 4,5, cf. Matt. 25: 34, Rev. 13: 8, 17: 8). Even though God knew Adam and Eve would sin, he did not force or program them to sin. As free moral agents, Adam and Eve elected to commit sin (Gen. 3). Man's will is involved in his salvation, not God's irresistible coercion (Jn. 3: 16, Matt. 11: 28-30). Nonetheless, God knew some would accept before they accepted (Acts 18: 9-11). Hence, some were "ordained to eternal life" because God knew they would obey the gospel when they heard it (Acts 13: 48, cp. Rom. 10: 16).

Predestination as taught by man. "God hath decreed in himself from all eternity by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely and unchangeable, all things whatsoever come to pass," writes man (Philadelphia Confession of Faith, ch. 6, para. 2-4). Calvinism teaches that man is so depraved that he cannot accept God's grace without a special, irresistible working of the Holy Spirit, independent of man's will. It is often in this vein that man teaches that God decided who would be saved and who would be lost before creation and that this decree was arbitrary on God's part (not involving man). Hear John Calvin:

"In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of the Scripture, we assert, that by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined, both whom he would admit to salvation, and whom he would condemn to destruction. We affirm that this counsel, as far as concerns the elect, is founded on his gratuitous mercy, totally irrespective of human merit; but that to those whom he devotes to condemnation, the gate of life is closed by a just and irreprehensible, but incomprehensible, judgment. In the elect, we consider calling as an evidence of election, and justification as another token of its manifestation, till they arrive in glory, which constitutes its completion. As God seals his elect by vocation and justification, so by excluding the reprobate from the knowledge of his name and the sanctification of his Spirit, he affords an indication of the judgement that awaits them." (Institutes of the Christian Religion, translated by John Allen.)

There have been many religious discussions relative to the role of God and man in man's salvation. It seems man is determined to pervert God's simple plan for man's salvation in either teaching man earns his salvation (God's grace not needed) or in asserting salvation is all of God (man's obedience not involved). The scriptures consistently teach and exemplify both God and man's part in the salvation of man. Man must believe, repent, confess Christ's deity, and be baptized in order to be saved (click on "Salvation" to read more). Since man is not sinless, God provides the necessary grace whereby obedient man can be saved. However, God's grace is not "grace alone," as the Calvinists contends (see addendum).

One early debate involving the matter of predestination was conducted between Augustine of Hippo and Pelagius. In fact, Augustine originally taught John Calvin's five-point system of predestination. Augustine taught that man has nothing to do with his own salvation. Man has inherited the totally depraved nature of Adam and Eve to the point they are spiritually incapable of availing themselves of God's grace, he further contended. As a result of the depraved Adamic nature being inherited, babies are born in sin and with a sinful nature. Augustine argued that the only way any are saved is by God intervening and choosing some whom he calls his elect to be saved. This choosing is totally arbitrary and independent of those chosen. Those thus chosen, cannot ever be lost or fall from grace. To the converse, those not arbitrarily chosen before the foundation of the world to everlasting life are irrevocably doomed to hell, having absolutely no hope of salvation, regardless of what they do or do not do. Such a doctrine as formulated by Augustine constitutes true "Calvinism" today.

Pelagius, on the other hand, taught that each man is created free just as Adam was and that each man must choose whether he will serve God or the devil. All men, contended Pelagius, are not sinners because Adam sinned, but because each man himself has violated God's law. Pelagius argued that when God extended the plan of salvation, it is for all who will obey, not just a few whom God arbitrarily chose, totally independently of themselves. Each man may cooperate with God and be saved through his faith and obedience to God's will.

It is tragic that most who "ruled" on the results of the debate at the ecumenical Council of Ephesus (AD 431), favored the views of Augustine. It is equally sad that many continue to embrace the godless doctrine of Augustine today under the name of Calvinism.

God is a God of love and ultimate equity. God's grace that brings salvation is accessible to all (Tit. 2: 11-14). God's elect are those who appropriate God's grace in simple submission to his will. Election is begun, continued, and climaxed in man exercising his free moral agency and choosing to accept God's extension of his grace (I Pet. 1: 2; I Thes. 1: 4-8; 2 Pet. 1: 5-11).

In closing, biblical predestination is proof of God's omniscience. Furthermore, biblical prophecy is predicated on God's foreknowledge and predestination (a marking out beforehand). Moreover, the fact that God knew that only a few would accept his Son is also indicative of God's love in sending his Son. "The few" who will be saved are not a group whom God arbitrarily and totally without any participation on their part, choose to be saved, but those who "enter in at the strait gate" and follow "the narrow way" (Matt. 7: 13, 14). (To read related material, click on "No Respecter of Persons," "Joseph, a Study of God's Providence," and, "God's Eternal Plan of Salvation.")

Addendum: The Christian stands in grace (1 Pet. 5: 12), grows in grace (2 Pet. 3: 18), and is to be strong in grace (2 Tim. 2: 1). Grace (charis) is God's favor. We are called by grace (Gal. 1: 15), justified by grace (Tit. 3: 7), and we are established by grace (Heb. 13: 9). The Bible also says we are saved by grace (Eph. 2: 5, 8). However, are we saved by grace alone? Beloved, Paul said God's grace "brings salvation", but he also affirmed God's grace "hath appeared to all men" (Tit. 2: 11). God has certainly done his job in universally extending grace. If it were just a matter of salvation by grace alone, all would be saved. However, only a few shall be saved (Matt. 7: 13-14). Hence, there is more involved than grace alone! Man must appropriate God's grace. It is true grace is a gift from God, man cannot earn it (cf. Rom. 11: 6, Eph. 2: 8-10). Some confuse earning and accepting. Man can and does receive God's grace in vain (2 Cor. 6: 1). Christians can also "fall from grace" (Gal. 5:4). In the wonderful text of Ephesians two, we have two elements, grace and faith, and two players, if you will: God and man. Paul wrote, "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." (vs. 8). Grace emanated from God, but faith is man's responsibility. No, grace alone does not save. Man seems determined to attach "alone" to grace, belief, and baptism. Man has participation in his salvation - from the beginning (accepting grace) to the end (continuing in grace, Acts 13: 43). Grace reigns through righteousness, man's humble obedience (Rom. 5:21).

As seen in the foregoing material, totally applied, Calvinistic Predestination denies events and circumstances happening simply because of the choices of man and natural events. To read more about causative circumstances and choices, click here. To read about the five point doctrinal system of Augustine and Calvin, .
http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTARO24.htm
 
Your question was "How would you interpret this then? John 1:13 'children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.'"
As I have posted above it is God's will for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ and yet this will not happen. There is His perfect will - " not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " and His permissive will were many perish - "Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Hi larry, Predestination in my opinion does not mean foreknowledge of our choice.

If by our choice then we have something to boast about. We can say 'i made the choice' and therefore take credit for salvation, and would deny god the freedom to elect. It would mean god elected because we would have made the choice or we were going to make the choice out of our own volition and choice

Its rather that god has elected us that we do believe. As jesus said to the pharisees.

''I told you, and you dont believe....but you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep''

Jesus did not say you dont belong to my fold because you dont believe. He said you dont believe because you are not a sheep. Belonging to the sheep ENABLES a person to believe.

We cannot believe in god unless we have faith, faith that he predestined to give us, so that salvation is all his work, and not our choice. God has to call faith into being in order for us to believe. Its not because we had faith of our own that we believe, but because he is the author of it.

Salvation is all the work of god, from start to finish. He elects a people before the foundation of the world, he predestines this people to be conformed to the image of his son, he calls them to himself in faith that he authors, he justifies them through that faith, and he finaly glorifies them.
 
I appreciate your opinion on that. While I will have to stick with my view based on Romans 8:29 and 2 Peter 1:2 I have several friends that espouse the same beliefs and we are still brothers- LOL!
It is a lot of fun discussing the Word with folks from different backgrounds and different ways of looking at the scripture. Iron sharpens iron does it not? :)
Seriously I do not expect the Body of Christ to be unified in doctrine until the Lord Himself comes back but we can walk in love, unity and purpose serving our Lord.
Many blessings and much love in His wonderful Name,
your b(r)other Larry.
 
Boanerges said:
I appreciate your opinion on that. While I will have to stick with my view based on Romans 8:29 and 2 Peter 1:2 I have several friends that espouse the same beliefs and we are still brothers- LOL!
It is a lot of fun discussing the Word with folks from different backgrounds and different ways of looking at the scripture. Iron sharpens iron does it not? :)
Seriously I do not expect the Body of Christ to be unified in doctrine until the Lord Himself comes back but we can walk in love, unity and purpose serving our Lord.
Many blessings and much love in His wonderful Name,
your b(r)other Larry.

HEHE, yes this is a controversial topic. I find that election gives me a lot of peace in time of trouble, because i know that i didnt choose god he chose me, as the bible says. The most nourishing doctrines naturally is the most attacked

God knew you say, that we were going to make the choice to believe and therefore predestined us for salvation. I dont deny that god knows everything and knows what will happen. But consider this. God knew that pharaoh would not let his people go from the foundation of the world, and YET he still got in there, into his heart, and HARDENED it. God predestined pharoah to show his wrath through pharoah, and he wasnt going to let pharaoh mess up his plans, so he got right into his heart and hardened it. Now we can say that pharaoh made the choice, or god made it for him. In the same way, god elected us for salvation and he gets right in there, into our hearts, and softens it so that we might believe, because he is not going to let us mess up his plans.
 
Boanerges said:
Your question was "How would you interpret this then? John 1:13 'children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.'"
As I have posted above it is God's will for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ and yet this will not happen. There is His perfect will - " not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " and His permissive will were many perish - "Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry but I don't see how you have answered my question. You say that you can choose to be born again. John 1:13 indicates not.

How about answering my question with your own words rather than a cut and paste of someone elses discourse on a theology that you seem to want to adopt.

Man's use of the phrases God's "perfect will" and "permissive will" when related to salvation are just a reflection of his inability to comprehend that salvation is of God. Man cannot choose to be born of God. Can a heart of stone choose to become a heart of flesh? Can what is not born choose to be born? This is not to say that man has no free will - but free will can only be exercised once man has been given life.
 
mutzrein said:
Boanerges said:
Your question was "How would you interpret this then? John 1:13 'children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.'"
As I have posted above it is God's will for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ and yet this will not happen. There is His perfect will - " not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " and His permissive will were many perish - "Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry but I don't see how you have answered my question. You say that you can choose to be born again. John 1:13 indicates not.



How about answering my question with your own words rather than a cut and paste of someone elses discourse on a theology that you seem to want to adopt.

Man's use of the phrases God's "perfect will" and "permissive will" when related to salvation are just a reflection of his inability to comprehend that salvation is of God. Man cannot choose to be born of God. Can a heart of stone choose to become a heart of flesh? Can what is not born choose to be born? This is not to say that man has no free will - but free will can only be exercised once man has been given life.

For me to agree with your interpretation I would have to believe that man can defy God's will for him to be saved (2Pe 3:9 ) and yet at the same time be unable to choose to do so.
So then (reading God's Word from your view) God's Word states that He wills for those souls to be saved but they are not because He chose not to save them? That is a paradox of sorts is it not?
We are born again by His power and by His will through foreknowledge of our choices. Cut, paste, glue, whatever- it does not change the truth of what was spoken.
 
Heneni said:
Boanerges said:
I appreciate your opinion on that. While I will have to stick with my view based on Romans 8:29 and 2 Peter 1:2 I have several friends that espouse the same beliefs and we are still brothers- LOL!
It is a lot of fun discussing the Word with folks from different backgrounds and different ways of looking at the scripture. Iron sharpens iron does it not? :)
Seriously I do not expect the Body of Christ to be unified in doctrine until the Lord Himself comes back but we can walk in love, unity and purpose serving our Lord.
Many blessings and much love in His wonderful Name,
your b(r)other Larry.

HEHE, yes this is a controversial topic. I find that election gives me a lot of peace in time of trouble, because i know that i didnt choose god he chose me, as the bible says. The most nourishing doctrines naturally is the most attacked

God knew you say, that we were going to make the choice to believe and therefore predestined us for salvation. I dont deny that god knows everything and knows what will happen. But consider this. God knew that pharaoh would not let his people go from the foundation of the world, and YET he still got in there, into his heart, and HARDENED it. God predestined pharoah to show his wrath through pharoah, and he wasnt going to let pharaoh mess up his plans, so he got right into his heart and hardened it. Now we can say that pharaoh made the choice, or god made it for him. In the same way, god elected us for salvation and he gets right in there, into our hearts, and softens it so that we might believe, because he is not going to let us mess up his plans.

God bless you my friend! One day we will have no more things to sort out but in the mean time let's enjoy doing so. :)
 
Boanerges said:
mutzrein said:
Sorry but I don't see how you have answered my question. You say that you can choose to be born again. John 1:13 indicates not.

How about answering my question with your own words rather than a cut and paste of someone elses discourse on a theology that you seem to want to adopt.

Man's use of the phrases God's "perfect will" and "permissive will" when related to salvation are just a reflection of his inability to comprehend that salvation is of God. Man cannot choose to be born of God. Can a heart of stone choose to become a heart of flesh? Can what is not born choose to be born? This is not to say that man has no free will - but free will can only be exercised once man has been given life.

For me to agree with your interpretation I would have to believe that man can defy God's will for him to be saved (2Pe 3:9 ) and yet at the same time be unable to choose to do so.
So then (reading God's Word from your view) God's Word states that He wills for those souls to be saved but they are not because He chose not to save them? That is a paradox of sorts is it not?
We are born again by His power and by His will through foreknowledge of our choices. Cut, paste, glue, whatever- it does not change the truth of what was spoken.

Thanks for the response.

Could it be that you have misinterpreted 2 Peter 3:9. This is not speaking of salvation!

I read this, not as speaking of the world - but those to whom it is addressed - those who through the righteousness of our God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, have received faith. (2 Peter 1:1)

These are already God's children. They are already born again. It says, "He is patient with YOU not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

You see repentance is granted to those who are already God's children - NOT the world.
 
If it were not possible for the lost to repent how can we save anyone?
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



2Pe 3:9 TheG3588 LordG2962 is not slackG1019 G3756 concerning his promise,G1860 asG5613 some menG5100 countG2233 slackness;G1022 butG235 is longsufferingG3114 toG1519 us-ward,G2248 notG3361 willingG1014 that anyG5100 should perish,G622 butG235 that allG3956 should comeG5562 toG1519 repentance.G3341



In light of the fact that God has given me assurance of salvation (1Jn 5:13) and the fact that Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1Jn 2:2) I do not believe I am misinterpreting 2Peter 3:9 and in fact after doing an in depth study on the word any it still translates "any". LOL! And in fact the preceding verses in that chapter seem to be dealing with His merciful attitude towards man in general.
My God knows the beginning form the end and I am at perfect peace with God's Word . He made us for fellowship but saw afore-time the sin issue and thus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World. According to foreknowledge of sin He predestined His son to pay the price of our redemption.

Since this seems to be the key verse around our disagreement let us look at the scriptural meaning of "foreknow" First from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G4267
ÀÃÂογινÎÃκÉ
proginÃ…ÂskÃ…Â
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

We can narrow down the exact application by cross referencing to the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament. The Vines is keyed of the Strong's but matches specific definitions to specific verses thus eliminating much confusion:


From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament:
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.
B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.
 
Boanerges said:
If it were not possible for the lost to repent how can we save anyone?
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I would say your approach is typical of many who are armed up to the eye balls with expositories, dictionaries, lexicons, concordances etc which you pore over in an effort to understand the very scripture that eludes you. I confess, I also was like this but then discovered that one of the most important elements to remember when looking at scripture MUST be CONTEXT. If you don’t keep it in context then you will go astray.

I am not questioning a person’s salvation. I am merely concerned that there are many in the ‘church’ who seem to believe that it is possible for man to choose to be born again. I will make this as crystal clear as I can. ANYTHING that man thinks that he can do in order to achieve a relationship with God is SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now I’m not going to comment any further on your post than the two statements you have made at the top of this post – apart from saying this. Remember the context. You cannot take a verse from here, another from there, marry them and hey presto there’s our doctrine.

So, on to your statement:
If it were not possible for the lost to repent how can we save anyone?
Good question. Answer: You can’t. Why? Your question is based on a false premise because what you are doing is applying the words ‘repent’ and ‘save’ to someone who is outside of the kingdom of God. Ie who is NOT born again. If it was applied to someone who was ALREADY born again and who had wandered from the truth, then it is valid.

Next: Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And this is exactly what I have been talking about. The problem is you have chosen to select only a small part of the scripture (taken it out of context) and tried to apply it to ALL. Read the scripture again! Start at verse 19, “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, . . .â€Â
You see, you couldn’t have chosen a better passage to illustrate the way in which scripture is taken out of context – not just by yourself of course, but by men who seek to justify a theology of self righteousness.

If you want to know THE truth, you will not find it in expositories. If you are a man of God, I would earnestly encourage you to seek after the truth as it is in Christ alone. Leave your expositories behind. Closet yourself away with your bible and in prayer ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you.
 
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