You have to be born.....AGAIN?

[Boanerges]

So you find the truth by ignoring the facts, well if that works of you then I am fine with it. I personally have found the the Holy Spirit has no problem with the truth of the Word and a closer examination is not to be feared.
Allow me to officially withdraw from this conversation.
I forgive you for your presumptuous judging of a brother you do not know and I pray that you are predestined to be free of your issues.
God bless you,
brother Larry.

 

[mutzrein]

So you find the truth by ignoring the facts, well if that works of you then I am fine with it. I personally have found the the Holy Spirit has no problem with the truth of the Word and a closer examination is not to be feared.
Allow me to officially withdraw from this conversation.
I forgive you for your presumptuous judging of a brother you do not know and I pray that you are predestined to be free of your issues.
God bless you,
brother Larry.

Thankyou Larry

Please note as I said in my last post - I am not questioning any person's salvation. Nor have I judged you. I do judge what people say, (out of the heart the mouth speaks) but I don't hold anything against you as a person because as you pointed out I don't know you. As far as I can see, your statement of forgiveness is therefore not warranted - but I accept that you have felt it necessary to say as much.

I don't find the truth by ignoring facts. I find the truth by asking the ONE who is the truth to reveal it to me. I have a passion for truth - and it is my earnest prayer that there would be others also who share this passion who are prepared to seek the Lord to find it.

I am merely endeavouring to uphold a salvation and a righteousness that is entirely born of God and only found in Christ. I am always happy to examine the Word of truth being mindful that it is the Spirit of Truth (not any other) that must confirm or deny what I say.

Finally, I respect your decision to withdraw at this time.

May the Lord bless you and keep you - unless you choose otherwise :gah
Ed

 

[justvisiting]

I'm responding to one of the posts that talks about unconditional election. I can only say someone has been filling your ear with total B.S. There is not one scripture in the Bible that will ever support unconditional election. The whole premise of the Bible is you are justified and Saved by Faith. You make like God sits back and says ... that's a pretty child... I choose that one... don't like him ... he goes to hell. What heresy! Every human being on the face of the earth will stand before God...past...present...and after us. We will all give account at the judgement.
It amazes me??? It's probably been repeated 10,000 times. Except you believe, believe in me, without faith it is impossible to please Him...etc. etc. Whereever do heretics get the idea that without unconditional election it is impossible to please Him. God has something to say to your callous soul.
Not every Hebrew was saved because he was a Hebrew... FAITH pleases. He is not a Jew outwardly, but inwardly, in the heart.
Anyone that can believe a predisposition by God to reject as some fancyfree marble game, doesn't have a clue what He is like. YOU ARE JUDGED ON WHAT YOU KNOW... AND WHAT YOU DO WITH WHAT YOU KNOW. Wake up and learn righteousness.

 

[mutzrein]

I'm responding to one of the posts that talks about unconditional election. I can only say someone has been filling your ear with total B.S. There is not one scripture in the Bible that will ever support unconditional election. The whole premise of the Bible is you are justified and Saved by Faith. You make like God sits back and says ... that's a pretty child... I choose that one... don't like him ... he goes to hell. What heresy! Every human being on the face of the earth will stand before God...past...present...and after us. We will all give account at the judgement.
It amazes me??? It's probably been repeated 10,000 times. Except you believe, believe in me, without faith it is impossible to please Him...etc. etc. Whereever do heretics get the idea that without unconditional election it is impossible to please Him. God has something to say to your callous soul.
Not every Hebrew was saved because he was a Hebrew... FAITH pleases. He is not a Jew outwardly, but inwardly, in the heart.
Anyone that can believe a predisposition by God to reject as some fancyfree marble game, doesn't have a clue what He is like. YOU ARE JUDGED ON WHAT YOU KNOW... AND WHAT YOU DO WITH WHAT YOU KNOW. Wake up and learn righteousness.

Hiya justvisiting. May I ask what your interpretation of unconditional election is?

 

[justvisiting]

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Furthermore... what is this unconditional... there is no unconditional anything. You are saved because you believe... if you become Apostate, you can actually be rejected. Yes, I do believe there is such a thing as Apostate.
It's true God is understanding and compassionate. The purchase of God extends to eternity. It still takes faith though. I have gone through scripture before on this. Heb 10 warnings, Jude, II Peter (dog to vomit), Paul speaking of keeping his body under subjection lest he himself should be a CASTAWAY, ETC.
If your eye offends you (Jesus)
If you want to know my state of mind about it. It is better to have confidence and love, than fear and doubt about salvation.

 

[mutzrein]

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Everything we need to know requires actions of faith on our part.

Thanks - I was looking for your thoughts on how you see this 'unconditional election' being applied incorrectly. If you could just let me know what you believe is being advanced as unconditional election and why it is wrong I'd appreciate it. I'm not suggesting I entirely agree or disagree with you, but I would like to understand what you believe others believe it is.

 

[justvisiting]

People get the idea from scriptures on predestination, election. All of a sudden they are specially chosen priests of God, that really didn't even have any choice in the matter. God just simply played the marble game and said I like that one. It's heresy! Listen to the words of Christ 10,000 times... unless you believe. I would that NONE would perish. This is not pick your favorite marble for God. We ARE SAVED BECAUSE WE RESPOND... by the way... you can reverse that process... by becoming Apostate. That's a whole new topic. I have written about that elsewhere. 1 Corinthians 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Paul himself said it was a possibility for him. There are all kinds of scriptures on that also. This is not to generate fear in anyone, but it is part of total Biblical doctrine.

 

[Heneni]

People get the idea from scriptures on predestination, election. All of a sudden they are specially chosen priests of God, that really didn't even have any choice in the matter. God just simply played the marble game and said I like that one. It's heresy! Listen to the words of Christ 10,000 times... unless you believe. I would that NONE would perish. This is not pick your favorite marble for God. We ARE SAVED BECAUSE WE RESPOND... by the way... you can reverse that process... by becoming Apostate. That's a whole new topic. I have written about that elsewhere. 1 Corinthians 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Paul himself said it was a possibility for him. There are all kinds of scriptures on that also. This is not to generate fear in anyone, but it is part of total Biblical doctrine.

Well thank you for your very spirited answer. But i think that if you believe that you chose god and he did not choose you, then you would find occasion to congratulate yourself for your most wise choices and have something to boast about before god. In the same way, if you believe that you chose god and he did not choose you, you will find yourself thinking that just as you have chosen him, you can unchoose him, and therefore you are sovereign over your lot and not him.

The people that god has chosen for salvation are the same people he has chosen to suffer on account of his name here on earth. So its not really that we get to be gods elect and sit back and think that everything is going to go swimmingly now. In fact because he has chosen you, you have also been chosen to suffer. But the kind of people that god has chosen as his own, are also the kind of people that are willing to suffer for his name. And they do this joyfully, being grateful for their salvation, knowing that they did not deserve it or merit it in any way, and that confidence that they have in gods freedom to elect them, is what makes them endure the suffering as well.

 

[justvisiting]

Absolutely wrong. You make it sound so Godly and romantic though. The truth is every man will give account for his decisions. Yes, that means our decisions. God did not make robots. Every man has been given choices... including the choice to deny the faith even after receiving the faith. 1 Timothy 4:1  ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Hebrews 3:14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1  ¶Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
REALLY I DIDN'T WANT TO GET INTO THE NEGATIVE OF IT... BUT IT IS THERE.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. There much better!

 

[joechrist]

Absolutely wrong. You make it sound so Godly and romantic though. The truth is every man will give account for his decisions. Yes, that means our decisions. God did not make robots. Every man has been given choices... including the choice to deny the faith even after receiving the faith. 1 Timothy 4:1  ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Hebrews 3:14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17  But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18  And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1  ¶Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
REALLY I DIDN'T WANT TO GET INTO THE NEGATIVE OF IT... BUT IT IS THERE.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. There much better!

I'm sorry my friend, but you are sadly mistaken. But maybe God gives A's for effort.

 

[justvisiting]

Just one last little blip here. There is more ego tripping on the part of the so called chosen, (all God's work,chosen priesthood) , than there is on the part of it's all us. It is both. I believe in the foreknowledge of God, but I don't believe He could judge someone that He never really would have given a chance to, AND HE DEFINITELY WILL BE ABLE TO JUDGE ALL MEN RIGHTEOUSLY AND FAIRLY, KNOWING THEY HAD A PROPER CHANCE.
Some of the most erudite B.S. between Calvinism and Arminianism is nothing but romantic writing and leaning on one's own understanding. I take the book at it's value. I'm not interested in romanticizing God. He is most definitely fair and Just to all.

 

[Heneni]

Just one last little blip here. There is more ego tripping on the part of the so called chosen, (all God's work,chosen priesthood) , than there is on the part of it's all us. It is both. I believe in the foreknowledge of God, but I don't believe He could judge someone that He never really would have given a chance to, AND HE DEFINITELY WILL BE ABLE TO JUDGE ALL MEN RIGHTEOUSLY AND FAIRLY, KNOWING THEY HAD A PROPER CHANCE.
Some of the most erudite B.S. between Calvinism and Arminianism is nothing but romantic writing and leaning on one's own understanding. I take the book at it's value. I'm not interested in romanticizing God. He is most definitely fair and Just to all.

I dont know much about calvin or arminianism. But there is little that paul could have romantasized about election while he was shipwrecked, beaten, persecuted and all the other suffering that went with it. God said ''let me show him (paul) all the things that he must suffer''. Does not sound too romantic to me. Paul said that he was chosen even before he was born. Did he lie? Did he incorrectly interpret the doctrine of election?

Did jesus not know what he talked about when he said ''all that the father has given me, shall not be lost''. Did you chose to let the father 'give' you to jesus? When jesus said, that none of his sheep could be plucked out of his hand, does that mean you stay in his hands because of your choice? When jesus said, ''my sheep know my voice'' is that because you chose to know it?

 

[justvisiting]

You just stated three things which are obviously true. The will of God, the will of man, and the foreknowledge of God. I'm only saying to make it look like the will of man... cannot override the will of God ... is wrong. Paul was a chosen vessel. True. Paul could have denied the faith? In the foreknowledge of God no. In the will of man. Yes.
If everything only relied on the will of God... then He wouldn't have to rebuke.

 

[Heneni]

You just stated three things which are obviously true. The will of God, the will of man, and the foreknowledge of God. I'm only saying to make it look like the will of man... cannot override the will of God ... is wrong. Paul was a chosen vessel. True. Paul could have denied the faith? In the foreknowledge of God no. In the will of man. Yes.
If everything only relied on the will of God... then He wouldn't have to rebuke.

You have not really answered my questions, but in any avent i will respond to your post.

Salavation is the will of god, his soveign will. Nobody that the father has given the son will be lost, and we had nothing to do with that choice. There is a place for discipline in the believers life, yes. But discipline leads to even more righteousness. God disciplines those he loves, those he elected. If we are not disciplined we are none of his. So obviously there are people who are not being disciplined.

I dont think we quite agree on what the judgement will be like or what people will be judged by. Do you believe that christ will judge us worthy of damnation when he has justified us on the day of judgement?

Can we be IN chirst jesus and be condemned? Would that not be similar to condemning chirst himself?

What do you think will be the charge against the elect on judgement day?

 

[mutzrein]

My view is this.

Once I had a heart of stone. I was dead in trespasses and sin. Being dead, there was nothing I could do to save myself or to make myself alive.

By God’s grace I was given life. This was not a choice I made but a divine intervention of God. God’s spirit gave birth to my spirit and the once stony heart became a heart of flesh.

Now having been made alive, I am aware that I am a son of God. And it is with this new birth that belief comes. This belief is the gift of God which stems directly from the gift of eternal life.

Man does not believe in order to gain the Spirit if God, but it is the Spirit of God which causes man to believe.

As John 1:13 says, ‘children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.’

Also if I may comment on the will of God and the will of man that has been mentioned and where I see each fitting in.

The will of God is to give eternal life to man. Those to whom God chooses to give life (until such time as they are given it) are dead and therefore cannot by their will, effect their birth. Think about our natural lives for a moment as an analogy. Can one who is not yet born, choose to have life? No. As it is in the natural, so it is in the spiritual.

HOWEVER, once man has received life it is totally different, because the gift of life which has been given him by God enables him to choose (by exercising his will) what to do with the gift.

I contend that those who have been given life will be judged – and those who haven’t, will perish – as the scripture says.

 

[justvisiting]

I can appreciate that you want to give glory to God. Nothing wrong with that. Glory to God. Ok. To only make like decisions are all one way on the part of God is wrong. It sounds very romantic and worshipful, but it's got a twist in it. Anything that isn't total truth can cause damage.
John 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Now to put the scripture that you gave in context. I think you are making like verse 13 has nothing to do with man, only God. What it is saying is that the act of redemption required Christ's blood, and God's will to allow it... it still required man's will to receive it... else why even mention receive in verse 12.
I think the real way to think about Christianity is that God is the instigator to save you, you still have to respond. The decision making process to be a Christian is no different than the decision making process after you are a Christian. Christ made many appeals for men to repent. Why didn't he just "choose them to repent". God has to rebuke us now also even after being believers, why? Why doesn't He just "choose us to repent". When I say choose it's more in the predestination (robot) type of mode.
The bottom line is we work together with God. He prompts. We either listen or don't listen. He rebukes. We obey or don't obey. Nothing is robotic about it. You are a chosen priest of God by His will. If you think it's possible that you could not obey that, you are wrong.
The perfect will of God. The orneriness of man. The permissible will of God. The will of man. The foreknowledge of God. The power of Christ to cover sin. The power of man to destroy the work of God... even after believing. All these come into play. It is an honor to a believer, to have the choice to obey or disobey. God has given all men... that FREE choice. There is no hammer and sickle making mankind obey. Those are my thoughts on the way we should view God's responsibility and our responsibility.
I do get carried away when I feel like some Christians's advocate prechosen baby selection. It is totally wrong. All mankind is called to repent. ALL

 

[mutzrein]

To me the latter verse of the passage in John explains the former - not the other way around.

That aside, would you care to comment on these scriptures?

Matthew 11:27 All things have been committed to me by my Father. No-one knows the Son except the Father, and no-one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him

John 6:64,65 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no-one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you will ask in my name

Acts 14:38 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

Romans 9:15,16 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy

Romans 9:20-21 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? for who resists His will?" But who are you O man to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 10:20 I was found by those who did not seek me, I revealed myself to those who did not ask for Me

Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In life he predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can boast . For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Heneni]

To me the latter verse of the passage in John explains the former - not the other way around.

That aside, would you care to comment on these scriptures?

Matthew 11:27 All things have been committed to me by my Father. No-one knows the Son except the Father, and no-one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him

John 6:64,65 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no-one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you will ask in my name

Acts 14:38 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed

Romans 9:15,16 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on mans desire or effort, but on Gods mercy

Romans 9:20-21 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? for who resists His will?" But who are you O man to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 10:20 I was found by those who did not seek me, I revealed myself to those who did not ask for Me

Ephesians 1:4 For He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In life he predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can boast . For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Amen.

 

[justvisiting]

Those are some pretty good predestination scriptures. I have read them all before. Sounds glorious and is glorious.
The real question to come to is this. Does God give every man a chance to repent? Pharoah was endured, warned... several times. The other thing to remember is that when Christ speaks, He is speaking with the help of the foreknowledge of the Father. Jesus knew from the beginning which ones did not believe...Jacob and Esau?... Esau refused his own birthright for food... wasn't that an act of his own will... not just God's rejection of him.
There is no doubt that God has to be the initiator... that is the calling... but does He flat out refuse someone without giving them a chance. NO! Noah a preacher of righteousness... did they listen... no. God gave them a chance to repent.
By the way the very person that is the most prolific writer on election (Paul) is also the greatest evangelist of them all, and no he was not selective in his preaching. He could not rest without spreading the gospel. Remember that. There are always two sides to what seems obvious.
2 Peter 3:9  ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. So why doesn't He just choose them all?? He leaves us a will.