Growth Zeal Without Knowledge

[netchaplain]

“I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge” (Rom 10:2).

As it is seen, zeal can be possessed short of effectiveness when not accompanied with knowledge (knowledge precedes understanding in learning but not in application). Though Judaism is not the way of Christianity it did teach preparation for it (Gal 3:24, 25) in types (sacrificial ordinances) and shadows (Col 2:16, 17; Heb 8:5; 10:1), but the instruction to the Jew was to go from Judaism to Christianity, as some did.

One of the greatest oppositions to Christianity since its conception is attempting the admixture of Judaism and Christianity (Judaeo-Christian?!#), which error cannot be effected but produces confusion resulting in distraction. Through the entirety of the Pauline epistles the Apostle exposed this errant concept as much as he disclosed growth in the Gospel of Christ, which explains the present terminology of "Galatianism."

“It takes more to break inertia than to ease momentum. Misdirected zeal is more easily corrected than inert sloth.” M.J.S.

“The snare with zealous, but unprepared and unbroken hearts, is to do the right thing in the wrong way. It is not enough to know the right thing, but I must know the right way of doing it. The latter is not easily learned; the former is the fruit of light; the latter is never acquired but as there is practical grace and love—the activity of the Lord Jesus’ nature in me by the Spirit.” J.B.S.

“But not according to knowledge”: it was not well regulated, it proceeded on mistaken principles, and moved in a wrong way, in persecuting the Church of God, in doing things contrary to the name of Christ, in putting to death his ministers and members, thinking that hereby they did God good service; which arose from their ignorance of their Father, and of the Son.

“Though they had a zeal of God, they knew neither God nor Christ aright; they did not know God in Christ, nor Jesus to be the true Messiah; they understood neither law nor Gospel truly and fancied that the Gospel was contrary to the Law, and an enemy to it. Therefore, in their great zeal opposed it and the professors of it, they were zealous of the law and of doing the commands of it, but knew not the true nature, use, and end of the law (Rom 10:4), as appears in 10:3 of Romans.” JG

Contemporary Christendom consists of many babes-in-Christ (1Cor 3:1 – not a rebuke but for maturity self-evaluation) believers due to lack of Scriptural knowledge (resulting in limited understanding) from having not yet read and re-read—even the NT—enough to at least be familiar with its contents. The resolution?—do not stop re-reading the NT.

I would like to suggest one Gospel (not all 4 at once) then through to Revelation (then Revelation every 3rd time through). It doesn’t matter how fast or slow as long as it is no less than the half of a page, then mark where you stopped (pencil w/eraser), which eliminates the need for deciding what to read.

I only suggest this method because it has worked well for me within the last 35 years (read OT about three times and the NT about a dozen). Regardless the method of choice the most significant issue is that of not requiring to decide what to read because you know where you stopped. (p.s. I read the OT about every four times through the NT).

As I’ve mentioned, speed is irrelevant because the prime objective is exposure to the Word, so the Spirit can do more of what He desires with you. Like the analogy of tanning under the sun, as sufficient exposure to the sun results in tanning, so does God’s teaching’s when sufficiently exposed to the Word, which is the Book of the Son, for is has been well said, “there is a scarlet thread of Christ which traverses the entirety of Scripture.”

My brotherly-love to all!
Bob (NC)

 

[Brother Mike]

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
(Rom 10:1-3)

Paul is speaking about Israel who had ZERO zeal for the things of the Spirit and ZERO zeal for the things of the Lord Jesus. How does this apply to believers in Christ Jesus? I don't see a connection here. You mentioned they had no excitement of Jesus, but they are Jews, so no wonder there.

Also, speed does seem important.
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[netchaplain]

Paul is speaking about Israel who had ZERO zeal for the things of the Spirit and ZERO zeal for the things of the Lord Jesus. How does this apply to believers in Christ Jesus?

Hi BM - I suppose the way I presented my point has obscured some of what I intended to share, but my intention is to relate the similarity between the majority Jews not moving on to Christ, and Christian's not moving on in growth in Christ--both due to lack of Scriptural knowledge; most Jews because of this are missing salvation, resulting in the perishing of the generality of a chosen nation; and the Christian not growing in their faith, resulting in a weakened service and witness.

Also, speed does seem important.
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.[/QUOTE]
My understanding here is that their problem wasn't time relate as much as it was knowledge and comprehension of Scripture. Paul indicated they had enough time that should have resulted in maturity, but they have yet to sufficiently understand the Scriptures.

Thanks for your reply a God's blessing to your Family!

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi BM - I suppose the way I presented my point has obscured some of what I intended to share, but my intention is to relate the similarity between the majority Jews not moving on to Christ, and Christian's not moving on in growth in Christ--both due to lack of Scriptural knowledge; most Jews because of this are missing salvation, resulting in the perishing of the generality of a chosen nation; and the Christian not growing in their faith, resulting in a weakened service and witness.

Also, speed does seem important.
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

My understanding here is that their problem wasn't time relate as much as it was knowledge and comprehension of Scripture. Paul indicated they had enough time that should have resulted in maturity, but they have yet to sufficiently understand the Scriptures.

Thanks for your reply a God's blessing to your Family![/QUOTE]

OK, thank you for explaining that. I thought that is the point you were making. I am not really concerned about the Jewish issue, certainly without Jesus they have not even started.

The zeal without knowledge title sort of led me to think of the new believer who is excited and sharing, but not having all the facts together yet. In other words, they may mean well, but might say a few wrong things just because of being so immature in the Word.

However, you address the believer not growing, as denoting someone that was saved several years, but not increasing in the knowledge of God, and still having zeal to share.

It's an interesting topic, because my thinking on this has changed.

We do have 10 year old babies, immature, still needing bottles, and willfully ignorant due to lack of diligence in finding out what exactly all things new was suppose to mean.

I also see massive amounts of revelation people have, they would not possibly use in their lifetime, but give to others that need it, to make it through the day.

Focused on faith and trusting God, healing, and things that can help people now from the Lord, I have been told by lots of folks I have amazing revelation on these things. I use to think it was because I study all the time for years. My great efforts have paid off, and everyone else must be a bit lazy to not know some things I know.

I don't think that is it though. There is a reason some of us have amazing revelation and others don't. Those few that are called to teach, need the revelation. There are many parts in the body, and many offices and callings that make the whole. The 12 said it's not fit we wait tables, but to spend the time in the Word and prayer. They had all the revelation as that was what they were graced to get, to give others. Stephen was set out to take care of the tables and people. To get the revelation the others had, He would have had to be called to the same position as they.

So someone called to preach and teach, would have a grace to get revelation than someone that was not called. So, If I put them down for being stupid, (Which I have been good at) I might be really dishonoring the Lord if that persons is walking in the grace they were given to accomplish what they are called to do.

Your problem comes in when someone thinks themselves a teacher, but never called a teacher. They are out of their place and grace, and hence full of bad doctrines.

Anyway.

Be blessed.

 

[ezrider]

I suppose the way I presented my point has obscured some of what I intended to share, but my intention is to relate the similarity between the majority Jews not moving on to Christ, and Christian's not moving on in growth in Christ--both due to lack of Scriptural knowledge; most Jews because of this are missing salvation, resulting in the perishing of the generality of a chosen nation; and the Christian not growing in their faith, resulting in a weakened service and witness.

The lack of scriptural knowledge or the wealth of scriptural knowledge should not be the point, nor should growing in Faith be conflated with growing in scriptural knowledge. Walking in Faith provides understanding that knowledge alone can not provide.

Like your OP presents, there are many who posses a zeal for God, but they also posses the knowledge of the Law. The knowledge of Sin and Death that comes by knowledge of the Law has caused you to seek salvation in the Lord, but then by that same knowledge and zeal for the Lord, the become the accuser of the brethren, calling out there sins. Is this the witness that Jesus declared to all? The knowledge of the Law comes with the temptation for one to assume the seat of Moses for themselves, judging between right and wrong. But Jesus has asked us not to judge one another, for with the law comes a power that we can not comprehend, and we wield that power like a two year old holding a load weapon. Judgement belongs to the Lord, and that should be the beginning of wisdom.

Reading the scripture to ascertain the knowledge it posses is like holding a two edged sword. It is not the knowledge of the scripture that sets apart the believer from spiritually growing in their Faith and relationship with God through Jesus Christ, it is the way that they receive those words into their hearts. Let me give an example for that which I speak.

Matthew 23:13-17
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows 'houses, and for a pretence make long prayer:therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind:for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold.

Matthew 23:23-28
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Now, in light of the scriptures I just posted, let me asked you how you received the word, what you think about these passages as you read them. From what perspective do you set yourself. When you read these passages of woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, do you picture yourself as one sitting on the right hand of God delivering the words of condemnation to the scribes and Pharisees? Or have you received the Word of the Lord as it was given unto you, as the Pharisee under condemnation; Woe unto you!

Possessing the knowledge of the scripture is not enough, and holding the knowledge of the words of the scripture does not necessarily inform anyone on how you have actually received the word of truth. I can attest to you, that your true spiritual growth will not begin until you can open your heart and receive the Word as it was meant for you to be received, as the scribe and Pharisee, and as the hypocrite. But if you think of yourself as Jesus saying woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, then you have not received His word into your heart.

 

[netchaplain]

OK, thank you for explaining that. I thought that is the point you were making. I am not really concerned about the Jewish issue, certainly without Jesus they have not even started.

The zeal without knowledge title sort of led me to think of the new believer who is excited and sharing, but not having all the facts together yet. In other words, they may mean well, but might say a few wrong things just because of being so immature in the Word.

However, you address the believer not growing, as denoting someone that was saved several years, but not increasing in the knowledge of God, and still having zeal to share.

It's an interesting topic, because my thinking on this has changed.

We do have 10 year old babies, immature, still needing bottles, and willfully ignorant due to lack of diligence in finding out what exactly all things new was suppose to mean.

I also see massive amounts of revelation people have, they would not possibly use in their lifetime, but give to others that need it, to make it through the day.

Focused on faith and trusting God, healing, and things that can help people now from the Lord, I have been told by lots of folks I have amazing revelation on these things. I use to think it was because I study all the time for years. My great efforts have paid off, and everyone else must be a bit lazy to not know some things I know.

I don't think that is it though. There is a reason some of us have amazing revelation and others don't. Those few that are called to teach, need the revelation. There are many parts in the body, and many offices and callings that make the whole. The 12 said it's not fit we wait tables, but to spend the time in the Word and prayer. They had all the revelation as that was what they were graced to get, to give others. Stephen was set out to take care of the tables and people. To get the revelation the others had, He would have had to be called to the same position as they.

So someone called to preach and teach, would have a grace to get revelation than someone that was not called. So, If I put them down for being stupid, (Which I have been good at) I might be really dishonoring the Lord if that persons is walking in the grace they were given to accomplish what they are called to do.

Your problem comes in when someone thinks themselves a teacher, but never called a teacher. They are out of their place and grace, and hence full of bad doctrines.

Anyway.

Be blessed.

I too believe we are on the same track!

 

[netchaplain]

The lack of scriptural knowledge or the wealth of scriptural knowledge should not be the point, nor should growing in Faith be conflated with growing in scriptural knowledge. Walking in Faith provides understanding that knowledge alone can not provide.

Hi ezirider - I agree that that knowledge alone is not useful, but understanding of something cannot come without first having knowledge of it, hence knowledge of Scripture first--then understanding in time.

Like your OP presents, there are many who posses a zeal for God, but they also posses the knowledge of the Law.

My point concerning the Law is that all (Jews) are suppose to move on from it.[/QUOTE]

Now, in light of the scriptures I just posted, let me asked you how you received the word, what you think about these passages as you read them.

As I've mentioned in about the 5th paragraph in the article, "not a rebuke but for maturity self-evaluation."

 

[Jesus Martyr]

This is how I understand why the Jews were cut off and cast away

Mar_3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts...
Joh_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom_11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
2Co_3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[netchaplain]

This is how I understand why the Jews were cut off and cast away

Mar_3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts...
Joh_12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom_11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
2Co_3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Hi JM - My comprehension concerning God casting away and cutting of the Jews are only to those who continue in disbelief, which has involved the majority of them, along with the majority of the rest of the world who disbelieve.

But there will eventually come the time God will cause the remaining Jews in the end time (Millennium) to believe by putting His Spirit in them (Eze 36:26, 27; Jer 31:31-33). I see that the majority of Romans 11 concerns God bringing Israel back unto Himself!

Thanks for the reply and God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Hi JM - My comprehension concerning God casting away and cutting of the Jews are only to those who continue i disbelief, which has involved the majority of them, along with the majority of the rest of the world who disbelieve.

But there will eventually come the time God will cause the remaining Jews in the end time (Millennium) to believe by putting His Spirit in them (Eze 36:26, 27; Jer 31:31-33). I see that the majority of Romans 11 concerns God bringing Israel back unto Himself!

Thanks for the reply and God's blessings to your Family!

Thank you and blessings to your family too

But...
I personally live in the New Covenant and enjoy being one in the House of Israel, just as promised by the law and the prophets, let me show you;

I see Jer 31:31-34 fulfilled and quoted word for word as so in the New Covenant in Christ's Blood made with believers here;

(Heb 8:7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Heb 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(Heb 8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(Heb 8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
(Heb 8:13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,... And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...
(Luk 22:20) In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.


No doubt about it

And I also see Eze 36:26,27 fulfilled here, and I most certainly live in these promised blessings as do you if you think about it

As promised, "a new heart"... (manifestly declared, so there's no doubt)

(2Co 3:3)Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

As promised, "a new spirit in us"...

(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water andofthe Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

He took away the "stony heart"

(2Co 3:3 again)...manifestly declared ... not in tables of stone,...

As promised He has "cleansed me"... (preceeding verse in Ezekiel vs 25)

(Tit 3:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(1Th 4:8) He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

No doubt about it

And yes, Romans 11 is quite clear that the Jews were cut off and by belief and baptism, they too can be added back into the House of Israel along with you and I. That is the Gospel of Salvation to Israel

And the reason we preach, is so that can happen! It sure isn't going to happen any other way, we know that, because there is only ONE way for Jews or Israelites out of the Gentiles to be saved, and that is by this;

(1Co 1:21) for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.

Do I hear an Amen?

Blessings again!

 

[netchaplain]

I can understand (because of the way Scripture sometime reads) why some would conclude that the body of Christians now represents Israel (Col 1:18; Eph 5:23 et al.), but I believe this concept is more confusing than just seemingly obscure. The scriptural distinctness concerning the linguistic usages of Israel, Judah, etc. are to me easier to understand when taken literal, and I have not encountered Scriptural conflict in maintaining the two groups as separate throughout Scripture. This also enhances the Church's unity concerning its uniqueness in consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

There is much scriptural obscurity pertaining to God's future plans with the nation and people of God--Israel, and this is why I believe many, in an attempt to address passages related to this subject, attempt to spiritualize the Church and Israel as one body (Judaeo-Christian!?). For example, "All Israel will be saved' (Rom 11:26) refers to the generality (majority), or even everyone single one of Israel coming to salvation all at once, which event has of course yet to occur, considering most Jews are still in unbelief.

Regardless, doctrines concerning the issues between the Church and Israel (and many other doctrines which are not related to receiving salvation) are non-essential (as to being saved), but serve to strengthen faith and grow in Christ.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

Hi again,

I have no confusion over it

Did you see how perfect those O.T. verses you provided prophecied to Israel, are fulfilled in the New Covenant in Christ's Blood to all believers? Quite a shocker to me too when I first saw it and began my long crawl out of dispensationalism.

I can show you that all the law and the prophets were fulfilled in Christ.

(Luk 24:44) And he said unto them, Thesearethe words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, andinthe prophets, andinthe psalms, concerning me.
(Luk 24:45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Pick any O.T. prophecy you think hasn't been fulfilled.
Just as I provided the scriptures on the Ezek verses, so will I be as easily able to show any other as fulfilled in the N.T. in Christ and to each and every believer who comes into Israel. You will truly enjoy seeing it I promise It is as a million light bulbs going off all at once!

Natural Israel was cut off from the Birthright because of unbelief.

(Mat 21:43)Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Agreed?

We who the "nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" are Israel;

Do we still agree?

We know that the Name Israel is not upon those who were cut off;

(Rom 9:6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Rom 9:7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Agreed?

Those are the only "two groups" spoken of concerning "Israel". The ones who used to be but were cut off. The ones that are true Israel because they "bring forth the fruit" and are "Christian."

Interrupt here at any time you don't see agreement please, we'll look at it closer then.

The Birthright has no relation to anyone else of genealogy. (Except Christ born of Judah of course Gen 49:9,10).

Agreed?

Any who are "graffed into Israel" as Rom 11 says, "are all Israel saved". That is exactly the message of Paul in all of Rom 11 as is all Holy Writ of the N.T.

It is easy to see, not a shred of confusion.
All One Gospel.
There is no other "gospel".

And "all at once"? I don't think so... else the scriptures are wrong;

The Marriage Covenant that God promised to Israel, has never stated such a concept;

(Jer 3:14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

That is how we have been coming to Zion for the last two thousand years.

(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And quite definitely, it is ONLY through the "foolishness of preaching" that ANYONE is brought salvation 1 cor 1:21.

So let me ask you a question brother... let's start here;

Are you of the opinion that genealogy of a race of people from Abraham is what determines who is of the Blessing of the Birthright? The answer to this can help us "cut to the chase" on this entire topic wouldn't you say?

Thank you for replying and may your day be blessed!

 

[netchaplain]

There is much to discuss concerning this subject, but I have yet to find enough agreement with the concept of Spiritualizing Israel to be the Body and Church of Christ that discussions and disagreements are always endless. At present I'm at the position that there will be two groups of saved peoples--Israel, who will consist of disbelieving Jews up to the Millennium but converted at the sight of Jesus' return, and whom will inherit the New Earth as promised; and the Church, who will consist of converted Jews and Gentiles, whom have inherited and will ever dwell in the New Heaven.

I believe the prophecies of Eze 36 and Jer 31 and that "all Israel shall be saved" will occur when the remaining Jews during the start of the Millennium see the Lord Jesus, and then God will put His Spirit in all the Jews and cause them to walk in a New Covenant--which will derive from the Blood Covenant of Christ, as all covenants do.

This is when they will believe because they will finally see Him, but this type of faith will be inferior to the faith of the Christian who will have already believed, and this is what I also believe Jesus intended when He said to Thomas, "because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (Jhn 20:290).

 

[Brother Mike]

There is much to discuss concerning this subject, but I have yet to find enough agreement with the concept of Spiritualizing Israel to be the Body and Church of Christ that discussions and disagreements are always endless. At present I'm at the position that there will be two groups of saved peoples--Israel, who will consist of disbelieving Jews up to the Millennium but converted at the sight of Jesus' return, and whom will inherit the New Earth as promised; and the Church, who will consist of converted Jews and Gentiles, whom have inherited and will ever dwell in the New Heaven.

I believe the prophecies of Eze 36 and Jer 31 and that "all Israel shall be saved" will occur when the remaining Jews during the start of the Millennium see the Lord Jesus, and then God will put His Spirit in all the Jews and cause them to walk in a New Covenant--which will derive from the Blood Covenant of Christ, as all covenants do.

This is when they will believe because they will finally see Him, but this type of faith will be inferior to the faith of the Christian who will have already believed, and this is what I also believe Jesus intended when He said to Thomas, "because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (Jhn 20:290).

Reading through the post, it seems it has gotten a bit complicated. I Originally did not read the Jews into right away, though mentioned in the OP.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

Israel still has a way, and God has made promise to them, but they can not remain in unbelief. We are not talking all of Israel there though, as many have no zeal even to Judaism and have forgotten God much like many in other countries. I have to believe God has some plan to open their eyes like Paul had his closed to be opened. Paul had a zeal, but Paul was misdirected with that zeal.

Mike.

 

[netchaplain]

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)

I have to believe God has some plan to open their eyes like Paul had his closed to be opened. Paul had a zeal, but Paul was misdirected with that zeal.

Hi BM - I believe they will be re-grafted when they see Him, which will begin their New Covenant. This would mean that the Jews who are alive at His return (starts the Millennium at the first resurrection) will be saved because they will see Jesus and believe; and the Jews who believed before seeing Him are part of the Church and Body of Christ.

 

[Jesus Martyr]

There is much to discuss concerning this subject, but I have yet to find enough agreement with the concept of Spiritualizing Israel to be the Body and Church of Christ that discussions and disagreements are always endless. At present I'm at the position that there will be two groups of saved peoples--Israel, who will consist of disbelieving Jews up to the Millennium but converted at the sight of Jesus' return, and whom will inherit the New Earth as promised; and the Church, who will consist of converted Jews and Gentiles, whom have inherited and will ever dwell in the New Heaven.

I believe the prophecies of Eze 36 and Jer 31 and that "all Israel shall be saved" will occur when the remaining Jews during the start of the Millennium see the Lord Jesus, and then God will put His Spirit in all the Jews and cause them to walk in a New Covenant--which will derive from the Blood Covenant of Christ, as all covenants do.

This is when they will believe because they will finally see Him, but this type of faith will be inferior to the faith of the Christian who will have already believed, and this is what I also believe Jesus intended when He said to Thomas, "because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (Jhn 20:290).

Yes, I am well aware of what you believe brother. But my question was;

Are you of the opinion that the genealogy of the twelve sons of Jacob is what determines who recieves the Blessing of the Birthright? Everything you are talking about is Blessings of the Birthright. Jacob went through great trouble to secure that Birthright to Himsef (Gen 27:36)... who did it get passed along to? Was the Birthright passed along to his twelve sons of the twelve tribes of Israel?
If so, is that why this future thing you are describing is to yet happen to those people who call themselves Jews over in the middle east?

That seems to me to be what you are saying... that those who call themselves "Israel" over in the ME have all this to look forward to "because they are blood descendents of Abraham"... is that what you are saying?

Would love to hear your answer

 

[netchaplain]

Everything you are talking about is Blessings of the Birthright.

I 'm not referring to the birthright that Jacob bought from Esau, which was primarily two-fold: it included a double portion of the inheritance from the father; and it included a blessing from Isaac which involved the promise that Jacob would have lordship over other nations. The blessing contained promise of divine protection, so that whoever cursed Jacob would be cursed, and whoever blessed Jacob would receive the blessing of God.

I'm referring to salvation to all the unbelieving Jews in the last days!

 

[Jesus Martyr]

May I beg you for only scriptures please brother? I promise you I will not throw out unfounded opinions. I simply ask for the same courtesy my dear, does that sound reasonable?

SCRIPTURALLY...When did the "Last Days" start?! (hint, it is NOT FUTURE FROM NOW)

(Act 2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
(Act 2:17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
(Heb 1:2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Fact #1) "The Last Days" phrase is shown as fulfilled at the end of the Old Covenant and beginning of the New Covenant. 2000 years ago!

It was THEN that Abraham's Covenant of the Birthright (SALVATION and DOMINION) and the Scepter was to be Manifest.

(Gen 49:1) And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

And HERE are the two aspects of the "Abrahamic Covenant" that were spoken.

The "Scepter" aspect;

(Gen 49:8) Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
(Gen 49:9) Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
(Gen 49:10) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

And the "BIRTHRIGHT" aspect was upon JOSEPH'S son Ephraim; (Gen 48)

(Gen 49:22) Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
(Gen 49:23) The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
(Gen 49:24) But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
(Gen 49:25)Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: (CHILDREN OF GOD!)
(Gen 49:26) The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.


THAT is the Birthright. THIS is the Salvation to the Jews "in the last days" which began when CHRIST CAME of the line of JUDAH as promised.

See how simple that correct answer is? I didn't even have to go outside of Holy Writ or put in my own private opinion Let us never do that as teachers!

Salvation and Dominion. To JOSEPH'S Son EPHRAIM, the YOUNGER son. The GRANDSON of Jacob was who the Birthright/Domion Blessing came upon.

Grampa Jacob even crossed his hands to place his right hand on the head of the younger son (Gen 48), and the Birthright Blessing upon Him was quite specifically

(Gen 48:19) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: howbeit his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
(Gen 48:20) And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Jacob Pronounced HIS NAME ISRAEL UPON THE YOUNGER SON. And He gave HIM Ephraim, the Right of the Firstborn. "THE BIRTHRIGHT"
The Birthright that he loved enough to con Esau out of it, who didn't deserve it.

The two aspects of this Great Covenant is renown throughout scriptures.

Psa_114:2 Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.

Psa_145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

The Scepter and the Birthright.

And I will proved the Lord's answer to the question for you, that I've asked of you more than once...

I asked, "Do you think that the Genealogy of Jacob's twelve sons are of the Birthright"?.

And here is the answer...


(1Ch 5:1) And the sons of Reuben the first-born of Israel (for he was the first-born; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's couch, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel; and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
(1Ch 5:2) For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the prince; but the birthright was Joseph's),

And finally, the JEWS DID FIRST receive this opportunity as a "Nation" to accept this Blessing of the Birthright;

(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

And that HAPPENED.

The Bible contains no idea as you put forth. Nothing about "first the Jews, then the gentiles, THEN the Jews AGAIN lol. [third?]

The Jews had the first opportunity to be part of the Birthright. Some did, but as "A Nation", they were "cut off". They widowed themselves.
There is now "no difference" how they can be saved than anyone else. Only through being remarried to Him raised from the dead, through repentance, baptism and dying to self and being raised up in New Life in Christ.

That is the Gospel and it is our Salvation to all Jews and all Gentiles, for there is no difference!

Act_15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Believe it

Blessings to you and your family!

 

[netchaplain]

I appreciate the courteous manner in which you maintain our correspondence, but I believe we are too indifferent concerning this issue to continue advantageously for either of us, and will be glad to continue with you on other issues, especially essential doctrines.

I fully understand the disagreements concerning this issue, and there are not many on the internet that have enough likeness as mine about it to discuss it.

May we continue in discussions that will be closer to both of our understanding!

 

[Jesus Martyr]

This is NOT a debate forum.