Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Karl]

Karl, we are not to fear that which has to come, but be prepared to endure through faith which is Jesus who strengthens us and gives us patience in always looking for the coming of our Lord. When I read scriptures such as: Psa 56:4; Matthew 10:28; John 15:18-21; Hebrews 13:6; 1Peter 4:12-14; Rev 6:9-11 just to name a few. I see that God is preparing us to withstand persecutions we might face. The Prophets died a martyrs death, Jesus died a martyrs death as the Disciples and Apostles. Even today many around the world are dying a martyrs death for the sake of Christ. Why would any of us be exempt to not die in this manner. Yes, we serve a loving God who loves us, but we will also suffer for His sake as He suffered for ours. I pray that no one would have to go through things like this, but if we do I know I will have praise on my lips as I sing glory to the Lord with my dying breath just as Paul and Silas sang praises to the Lord while they were in prison.

Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luke 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Dear sister, I agree whole heartedly with what you say in this post, one of my reasons of what I was trying to show you in my last post is, ...if the Church were to go through the Trib it would be persecuted by Jesus Himself, yes the Church is and will be persecuted by the world, Jesus promised us that, .... but never by our Lord.

I gave you some "negative" reasons, the Word is full of "positive" examples, signs, types

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. Hos 12:10

of how the Church will be raptured before the Trib,

1. Enoch rapture before God's judgement on the world by the Flood.
2. The angels could not strike Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was taken out.
3. The absence of Daniel when the three Hebrew boys were in the fiery furnace.
4. The lesson learned in Moses striking the Rock twice.

Those are just a few examples that when we study them we see many Truths that correspond and support the rapture of the Church before the Trib.

Then there are the seven dispensations, that correspond to the seven seals on the scroll (proof that dispensations are not something new, but have been in the Word since John penned the Apocalypse), if the church were still on the planet during the Trib there would only be six seals and we would have an error in our Bibles, ...which would be tantamount to saying God is not perfect.

On the other hand, may I humbly ask in love, brother to sister, why do you want to believe that the Church will go through the Trib?

What comfort is there in that and from what I asked previously about the characteristic of a Bridegroom the beats His bride before marrying her, how can we think that is the character of our loving Lord, or where in the Word has He even given us the idea or thoughts He is like that?

 

[Willie T]

Dear sister, I agree whole heartedly with what you say in this post, one of my reasons of what I was trying to show you in my last post is, ...if the Church were to go through the Trib it would be persecuted by Jesus Himself, yes the Church is and will be persecuted by the world, Jesus promised us that, .... but never by our Lord.

I gave you some "negative" reasons, the Word is full of "positive" examples, signs, types

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. Hos 12:10

of how the Church will be raptured before the Trib,

1. Enoch rapture before God's judgement on the world by the Flood.
2. The angels could not strike Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was taken out.
3. The absence of Daniel when the three Hebrew boys were in the fiery furnace.
4. The lesson learned in Moses striking the Rock twice.

Those are just a few examples that when we study them we see many Truths that correspond and support the rapture of the Church before the Trib.

Then there are the seven dispensations, that correspond to the seven seals on the scroll (proof that dispensations are not something new, but have been in the Word since John penned the Apocalypse), if the church were still on the planet during the Trib there would only be six seals and we would have an error in our Bibles, ...which would be tantamount to saying God is not perfect.

On the other hand, may I humbly ask in love, brother to sister, why do you want to believe that the Church will go through the Trib?

What comfort is there in that and from what I asked previously about the characteristic of a Bridegroom the beats His bride before marrying her, how can we think that is the character of our loving Lord, or where in the Word has He even given us the idea or thoughts He is like that?

I find it amazing that people can actually believe this AND that God beat up Jesus (really, himself), on the cross. Not that I wasn't also taught this very thing...... BUT I finally began reading the Bible for myself, rather than just accepting warped ideas that were passed down from times past.

 

[for_his_glory]

Karl, if you or anyone can show me in scripture where it mentions specifically being raptured out before some 7 year tribulation then I might rethink my findings in what scripture has already shown me. I too once believed this theory just by how others taught it using scripture, but my knowledge of scripture was weak back then. It was when I read and dug deeper by allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to me as I started to compared scripture with scripture, OT and NT that my eyes were opened to what Jesus Olivet message to the Disciples in Matthew 24 was all about and that the Church will still be here through out Rev up until around Chapter 14 as I have already shown with scripture. Many teach that Matthew 24 was in the past around 70AD, but neglect what Jesus said at the beginning of His Olivet discourse and at the very end with vs. 27-31.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The Disciples ask three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world. Not all the stones in Matthew 24:2 have been thrown down yet and Jesus proceeds through all of Matthew 24 answering those three questions the Disciples asked.

Our comfort in all of this is that if we are killed we will be with the Lord forever just as those who have gone before us. Even now many of our brothers and sisters around the word including America are going through much tribulation until we see Jesus coming in the clouds and then we shall see Him in all His glory.

 

[LovethroughDove]

The Scripture that has us going to meet the Lord in the air twinkling of an eye, is the moment we die. There will be an End Time event that ends all humanity and believers will be here to see it, but our physical bodies will not even see death because of how this event happens.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Scripture that has us going to meet the Lord in the air twinkling of an eye, is the moment we die. There will be an End Time event that ends all humanity and believers will be here to see it, but our physical bodies will not even see death because of how this event happens.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You are correct except as this fleshly body dies as we are all changed into our glorified bodies before we meet Jesus in the clouds. Seems to me that the last trump of Rev 11:15-19 correlates with that of the harvest judgment of Rev 14:14-20 and after the mark of the beast in Rev 13:11-18.

 

[LovethroughDove]

1Co_15:52

You are correct except as this fleshly body dies as we are all changed into our glorified bodies before we meet Jesus in the clouds. .

You are right. I guess I was trying to say that our bodies won't have a chance to see physical death, cause the event will be so instant.

 

[for_his_glory]

You are right. I guess I was trying to say that our bodies won't have a chance to see physical death, cause the event will be so instant.

yep, in a twinkling of an eye we will be with the Lord forever

 

[Malachi]

The Disciples ask three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world. Not all the stones in Matthew 24:2 have been thrown down yet and Jesus proceeds through all of Matthew 24 answering those three questions the Disciples asked.

A closer look at the Olivet Discourse will confirm that the Church is not even in view. This discourse has nothing to say about the fate of the Church. The "elect" (v. 22) speaks of the Jewish remnant (Rom 11:5) who will be preserved through the Great Tribulation (see Rev 12:6, where the "woman" symbolizes Israel).

The disciples, as Jews, were asking the Lord about His second coming, the fate of Jerusalem, the Temple, Israel, and the end of the age in connection with that. And they received a very clear, concise explanation. They had no clue about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) at that point, and Christ did not reveal things prematurely.

What the Olivet Discourse reveals very clearly is that the Great Tribulation is an outcome of the erection of the blasphemous "Abomination of Desolation", and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that this abomination is a work of the Antichrist (Satan incarnate). In verse 15 we read of the Abomination of Desolation and then in verse 21 we read of the Great Tribulation.

Preterists have claimed that Antiochus Epiphanes erected the Abomination of Desolation during the time of the Maccabees (c.167 B.C)., but if that were true the Lord Jesus would not have pointed forward to it, since Christ was born after the Maccabes disappeared. The "type" was then, and the "antitype" is in the future.

A Jewish temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (regardless of how impossible it appears) and the Antichrist will desecrate it at prophesied in Scripture. That will trigger the Great Tribulation.

 

[Sinthesis]

Where in the bible does one get the idea that any antichrist is satan incarnate?

 

[reba]

A closer look at the Olivet Discourse will confirm that the Church is not even in view. This discourse has nothing to say about the fate of the Church. The "elect" (v. 22) speaks of the Jewish remnant (Rom 11:5) who will be preserved through the Great Tribulation (see Rev 12:6, where the "woman" symbolizes Israel).

The disciples, as Jews, were asking the Lord about His second coming, the fate of Jerusalem, the Temple, Israel, and the end of the age in connection with that. And they received a very clear, concise explanation. They had no clue about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) at that point, and Christ did not reveal things prematurely.

What the Olivet Discourse reveals very clearly is that the Great Tribulation is an outcome of the erection of the blasphemous "Abomination of Desolation", and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that this abomination is a work of the Antichrist (Satan incarnate). In verse 15 we read of the Abomination of Desolation and then in verse 21 we read of the Great Tribulation.

Preterists have claimed that Antiochus Epiphanes erected the Abomination of Desolation during the time of the Maccabees (c.167 B.C)., but if that were true the Lord Jesus would not have pointed forward to it, since Christ was born after the Maccabes disappeared. The "type" was then, and the "antitype" is in the future.

A Jewish temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (regardless of how impossible it appears) and the Antichrist will desecrate it at prophesied in Scripture. That will trigger the Great Tribulation.

The disciples had a bit to do with establishing the church and that is who Jesus was talking to at the time..

Antichrist will desecrate it at prophesied in Scripture

What passage of Scripture says this?

 

[reba]

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Rom_14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[for_his_glory]

A closer look at the Olivet Discourse will confirm that the Church is not even in view. This discourse has nothing to say about the fate of the Church. The "elect" (v. 22) speaks of the Jewish remnant (Rom 11:5) who will be preserved through the Great Tribulation (see Rev 12:6, where the "woman" symbolizes Israel).

The disciples, as Jews, were asking the Lord about His second coming, the fate of Jerusalem, the Temple, Israel, and the end of the age in connection with that. And they received a very clear, concise explanation. They had no clue about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) at that point, and Christ did not reveal things prematurely.

What the Olivet Discourse reveals very clearly is that the Great Tribulation is an outcome of the erection of the blasphemous "Abomination of Desolation", and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that this abomination is a work of the Antichrist (Satan incarnate). In verse 15 we read of the Abomination of Desolation and then in verse 21 we read of the Great Tribulation.

Preterists have claimed that Antiochus Epiphanes erected the Abomination of Desolation during the time of the Maccabees (c.167 B.C)., but if that were true the Lord Jesus would not have pointed forward to it, since Christ was born after the Maccabes disappeared. The "type" was then, and the "antitype" is in the future.

A Jewish temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (regardless of how impossible it appears) and the Antichrist will desecrate it at prophesied in Scripture. That will trigger the Great Tribulation.

I do not go by what pretrib, post trib, Preterists or religion tries to teach, but only follow that of the word of God only.

Why is it when I ask for scripture that says "Great 7 year Tribulation" or "Antichrist" no one can produce any. All they can do is show speculation of it, but not the actual words mentioned in scripture.
Malachi, can you explain why Jesus said "then after the tribulations of those days" and continues in vs. 27-31 to explain His second coming which is after everything He spoke from vs. 4-26 in Matthew 24.

 

[reba]

I do not go by what pretrib, post trib, Preterists or religion tries to teach, but only follow that of the word of God only.

Why is it when I ask for scripture that says "Great 7 year Tribulation" or "Antichrist" no one can produce any. All they can do is show speculation of it, but not the actual words mentioned in scripture.
Malachi, can you explain why Jesus said "then after the tribulations of those days" and continues in vs. 27-31 to explain His second coming which is after everything He spoke from vs. 4-26 in Matthew 24.

We agree on some points

 

[Kathi]

I do not go by what pretrib, post trib, Preterists or religion tries to teach, but only follow that of the word of God only.

Why is it when I ask for scripture that says "Great 7 year Tribulation" or "Antichrist" no one can produce any. All they can do is show speculation of it, but not the actual words mentioned in scripture.
Malachi, can you explain why Jesus said "then after the tribulations of those days" and continues in vs. 27-31 to explain His second coming which is after everything He spoke from vs. 4-26 in Matthew 24.

I don't understand.If you take the Word of God literally it has a lot to say about the upcoming tribulation and the Antichrist.As far as when the rapture will happen and pre trib,mid trib and post trib that is icing on the cake.We will just have to wait and see. But if you do not take the Bible literally and giving it your own meaning you will not come up with the future events that are intended.Jesus Christ took the Bible literally.The Disciples took the Bible literally.If you do not you can cause a person to stumble and fall in their walk with God and that you will hear about in your judgment.
There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky.When we put ourselves above which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally we are putting ourselves about God.

 

[Willie T]

We agree on some points

I have found that I agree with some people all of the time, and with all people some of the time............., on SOME things.

 

[for_his_glory]

These are the scriptures that speak of tribulation and antichrist. I see none that speak of a Great 7 year Tribulation or just one Antichrist

Tribulation:

Mat_13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mar_13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Antichrist:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[jasonc]

I don't understand.If you take the Word of God literally it has a lot to say about the upcoming tribulation and the Antichrist.As far as when the rapture will happen and pre trib,mid trib and post trib that is icing on the cake.We will just have to wait and see. But if you do not take the Bible literally and giving it your own meaning you will not come up with the future events that are intended.Jesus Christ took the Bible literally.The Disciples took the Bible literally.If you do not you can cause a person to stumble and fall in their walk with God and that you will hear about in your judgment.
There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky.When we put ourselves above which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally we are putting ourselves about God.

uhm, jews do have them. go to them and ask, they might show you a couple places where they take that. ie and eye for eye wasn't a literal statement.

 

[for_his_glory]

We agree on some points

The more I dig the more the Holy Spirit reveals to me. I've been digging for deeper truth since 1998 n what Gods word says as I had to learn to separate myself from what man had taught me all those years before.

 

[Willie T]

I don't understand.If you take the Word of God literally it has a lot to say about the upcoming tribulation and the Antichrist.As far as when the rapture will happen and pre trib,mid trib and post trib that is icing on the cake.We will just have to wait and see. But if you do not take the Bible literally and giving it your own meaning you will not come up with the future events that are intended.Jesus Christ took the Bible literally.The Disciples took the Bible literally.If you do not you can cause a person to stumble and fall in their walk with God and that you will hear about in your judgment.
There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky.When we put ourselves above which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally we are putting ourselves about God.

Therein lies the rub. We all know for a fact that every page of the Bible cannot be taken literally.

I think the biggest headache we give ourselves is choosing to either take parts literally, or apocalyptically, (the ORIGINAL, Biblical meaning... NOT our modern view of "Doomsday stuff") however it suits the doctrine we wish to shoehorn it into.

 

[Willie T]

The more I dig the more the Holy Spirit reveals to me. I've been digging for deeper truth since 1998 n what Gods word says as I had to learn to separate myself from what man had taught me all those years before.

Hard work, isn't it? I sometimes can't believe all the stuff I just "accepted" for so many decades. I never thought I could be that gullible.