Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Malachi]

I do not go by what pretrib, post trib, Preterists or religion tries to teach, but only follow that of the word of God only.

That is excellent. At the same time, since the Bible is not a text book, we need to build doctrine by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not looking for specific terms we use which are "shorthand" to help explain the prophesies. Something which Christians easily forget is that sometimes God even builds a doctrine on just one word (Gen 15:6 "believed"), or even whether a word is singular or plural (Gal 3:16 "seed" not "seeds").

Why is it when I ask for scripture that says "Great 7 year Tribulation" or "Antichrist" no one can produce any.

As stated, Scripture is not a text book, so you should not expect text book answers. You should carefully study Daniel and Revelation in conjunction with each other (as well as 2 Thessalonians and a few other passages), and you will find these truths. There are excellent Bible tools such as the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which will help you tie the Scriptures together.

All they can do is show speculation of it, but not the actual words mentioned in scripture.

Responsible Christians are fully aware that they cannot play with Bible doctrine using wild speculations. "The actual words" that God uses can vary tremendously even though they speak of the same subject. For example, in John chapter one, Jesus is called "the Word", "the true Light", "the only begotten of the Father", "Jesus Christ", "the only begotten Son", "the Lord", "the Lamb of God", "the Son of God", "Jesus", "Rabbi", "the Messias", "the Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", "the son of Joseph", "the King of Israel" and "the Son of Man". That's 17 names and titles in one chapter. Similarly, the Antichrist has many names and titles, and it is now up to you to search the Scriptures.

Malachi, can you explain why Jesus said "then after the tribulations of those days" and continues in vs. 27-31 to explain His second coming which is after everything He spoke from vs. 4-26 in Matthew 24.

Absolutely. In Matthew 24 the Lord gave a summation of all the major events which would occur between His first and second comings, and which would culminate in His second coming "in power and great glory" (v. 30). This should be compared with Mark chapter 13 and Luke chapter 21 in order to tie it all together. But this is only the beginning. You then have to go to all the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies which tie into what is summarized here. Its a lot of work, but it should result in a clear understanding of the truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't understand.If you take the Word of God literally it has a lot to say about the upcoming tribulation and the Antichrist.As far as when the rapture will happen and pre trib,mid trib and post trib that is icing on the cake.We will just have to wait and see. But if you do not take the Bible literally and giving it your own meaning you will not come up with the future events that are intended.Jesus Christ took the Bible literally.The Disciples took the Bible literally.If you do not you can cause a person to stumble and fall in their walk with God and that you will hear about in your judgment.
There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky.When we put ourselves above which parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally we are putting ourselves about God.

Much in the Bible is literal and much is Spiritual with it's symbolism. Shadows of the old revealed in the new. If we would just read scripture as it is written, word for word comparing scripture with scripture, OT with NT instead of reading it with what others try and teach us then the Holy Spirit will reveal all truth. Are we lead around like a bull with a ring in its nose, or are we lead by the Holy Spirit as we discern all things taught to us as The Holy Spirit will show us truth from error.

I want to be prepared if I am still alive and have to go through all things as I want to know what I might have to face in persecutions and tribulations for the sake of my faith which is Christ Jesus. Why should we fear that which has to come. All they can do is kill this fleshly body. So what, then we will be with the Lord forever. Meanwhile while we are still alive we need to continue in teaching the Gospel of Christ for His salvation to be found in others just like those who are being persecuted to death in other countries as they die a martyrs death, but yet praise the Lord with their dying breath.

 

[Kathi]

Therein lies the rub. We all know for a fact that every page of the Bible cannot be taken literally.

I think the biggest headache we give ourselves is choosing to either take parts literally, or apocalyptically, (the ORIGINAL, Biblical meaning... NOT our modern view of "Doomsday stuff") however it suits the doctrine we wish to shoehorn it into.

And you did read my statement?"There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky." ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hard work, isn't it? I sometimes can't believe all the stuff I just "accepted" for so many decades. I never thought I could be that gullible.

Me too Willie. I don't want a feel good message, I want meat.

 

[Willie T]

And you did read my statement?"There are still figures of speech in the Bible.Such as if someone told you it was raining cats and dogs outside you would not expect to look outside and see cats and dogs coming from the sky." ?

I think it goes way beyond some occasional Jewish idioms.

 

[jasonc]

im waiting for the marriage to the lamb and the hidden the Yud Hey Vah Hey. last I check Jesus claimed to the Jews to be The YHWH.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is excellent. At the same time, since the Bible is not a text book, we need to build doctrine by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not looking for specific terms we use which are "shorthand" to help explain the prophesies. Something which Christians easily forget is that sometimes God even builds a doctrine on just one word (Gen 15:6 "believed"), or even whether a word is singular or plural (Gal 3:16 "seed" not "seeds").



As stated, Scripture is not a text book, so you should not expect text book answers. You should carefully study Daniel and Revelation in conjunction with each other (as well as 2 Thessalonians and a few other passages), and you will find these truths. There are excellent Bible tools such as the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge and Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which will help you tie the Scriptures together.



Responsible Christians are fully aware that they cannot play with Bible doctrine using wild speculations. "The actual words" that God uses can vary tremendously even though they speak of the same subject. For example, in John chapter one, Jesus is called "the Word", "the true Light", "the only begotten of the Father", "Jesus Christ", "the only begotten Son", "the Lord", "the Lamb of God", "the Son of God", "Jesus", "Rabbi", "the Messias", "the Christ", "Jesus of Nazareth", "the son of Joseph", "the King of Israel" and "the Son of Man". That's 17 names and titles in one chapter. Similarly, the Antichrist has many names and titles, and it is now up to you to search the Scriptures.



Absolutely. In Matthew 24 the Lord gave a summation of all the major events which would occur between His first and second comings, and which would culminate in His second coming "in power and great glory" (v. 30). This should be compared with Mark chapter 13 and Luke chapter 21 in order to tie it all together. But this is only the beginning. You then have to go to all the Old Testament and New Testament prophecies which tie into what is summarized here. Its a lot of work, but it should result in a clear understanding of the truth.

Here we go around the Mulberry bush again. No precise answers, but only speculations and instruction of how I should study the word of God. Why do we need to build doctrine when we already have the doctrine of Christ right before us. We compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT to see the shadows of the OT come to light in the NT, not by what others try to teach us, but by the Holy Spirit teaching us all truths so that we can be confident in what we teach others. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and allow the Holy Spirit reveal all truth.

 

[Willie T]

Here we go around the Mulberry bush again. No precise answers, but only speculations and instruction of how I should study the word of God. Why do we need to build doctrine when we already have the doctrine of Christ right before us. We compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT to see the shadows of the OT come to light in the NT, not by what others try to teach us, but by the Holy Spirit teaching us all truths so that we can be confident in what we teach others. I never ask anyone to agree with me, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves and allow the Holy Spirit reveal all truth.

Wow! THAT says a mouthful.

 

[jasonc]

why do we need to build doctrine?

answer because we must and are taught to so that this church and show other it is the right and only anointed one. rather then spend time as doing the doctrine easily taught by jesus, to wit:
1) visit the inmates in jail
2) feed the poor
3) be the dad to the fatherless or mother to them
and so on.

 

[Willie T]

answer because we must and are taught to so that this church and show other it is the right and only anointed one. rather then spend time as doing the doctrine easily taught by jesus, to wit:
1) visit the inmates in jail
2) feed the poor
3) be the dad to the fatherless or mother to them
and so on.

Aw rats! It's so much more fun to come up with something that I can hold up as being better than what the other guy has.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gods word is only doom and gloom to those who reject him. Christ has brought us the glorious Gospel of grace that no matter what we face in life it's all good news in the end if we hold on to our faith, which is Christ Jesus, that we have eternal life with the Father in the end.

 

[Kathi]

Gods word is only doom and gloom to those who reject him. Christ has brought us the glorious Gospel of grace that no matter what we face in life it's all good news in the end if we hold on to our faith, which is Christ Jesus, that we have eternal life with the Father in the end.

I have known a few non believers who I could see deep down in their heart that they hoped there was not a hell.

 

[reba]

The more I dig the more the Holy Spirit reveals to me. I've been digging for deeper truth since 1998 n what Gods word says as I had to learn to separate myself from what man had taught me all those years before.

Hard work, isn't it? I sometimes can't believe all the stuff I just "accepted" for so many decades. I never thought I could be that gullible.

That was very hard to do.. i think i should say that is hard to do it is on going...
That is one the reason i post so often as to what the scriptures LITERALLY says .. (ie) there is no mention of antichrist in The Revelation of Jesus Christ... There is no THE great tribulation... Jesus plainly says

Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
etc..

 

[for_his_glory]

answer because we must and are taught to so that this church and show other it is the right and only anointed one. rather then spend time as doing the doctrine easily taught by jesus, to wit:
1) visit the inmates in jail
2) feed the poor
3) be the dad to the fatherless or mother to them
and so on.

jasonc, you hit the nail on the head for that of Matthew 25 in those things we are to continue in until the Lord returns no matter what we will or will not face until He comes in the clouds and calls us home.

 

[jasonc]

That was very hard to do.. i think i should say that is hard to do it is on going...
That is one the reason i post so often as to what the scriptures LITERALLY says .. (ie) there is no mention of antichrist in The Revelation of Jesus Christ... There is no THE great tribulation... Jesus plainly says

Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
etc..

I don't know how I was so guillable either. plain reading says what is says.im not saying I have it all figured out. I certainly don't.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have known a few non believers who I could see deep down in their heart that they hoped there was not a hell.

Just as God said that he would that none should perish, but only knows His own by what spirit is living in their heart.

 

[reba]

I don't know how I was so guillable either. plain reading says what is says.im not saying I have it all figured out. I certainly don't.

completely agree jasonc ..

 

[Kathi]

Will some be

 

[JLB]

A closer look at the Olivet Discourse will confirm that the Church is not even in view. This discourse has nothing to say about the fate of the Church. The "elect" (v. 22) speaks of the Jewish remnant (Rom 11:5) who will be preserved through the Great Tribulation (see Rev 12:6, where the "woman" symbolizes Israel).

The disciples, as Jews, were asking the Lord about His second coming, the fate of Jerusalem, the Temple, Israel, and the end of the age in connection with that. And they received a very clear, concise explanation. They had no clue about the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) at that point, and Christ did not reveal things prematurely.

What the Olivet Discourse reveals very clearly is that the Great Tribulation is an outcome of the erection of the blasphemous "Abomination of Desolation", and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that this abomination is a work of the Antichrist (Satan incarnate). In verse 15 we read of the Abomination of Desolation and then in verse 21 we read of the Great Tribulation.

Preterists have claimed that Antiochus Epiphanes erected the Abomination of Desolation during the time of the Maccabees (c.167 B.C)., but if that were true the Lord Jesus would not have pointed forward to it, since Christ was born after the Maccabes disappeared. The "type" was then, and the "antitype" is in the future.

A Jewish temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem (regardless of how impossible it appears) and the Antichrist will desecrate it at prophesied in Scripture. That will trigger the Great Tribulation.

So the disciples, such as Peter, James and John, are not counted as the Church?

That's funny!!!

Really it's not funny, it's sad to think that teachings such as this are out there.


I can't imaging anything being so far from the truth that the scriptures teach us.


"The Church leadership is not really the Church because they were "Jews".


Complete and utter nonsense!!!!


JLB

 

[Eugene]

it's all good news in the end if we hold on to our faith, which is Christ Jesus, that we have eternal life with the Father in the end.

So God is telling the one, Yeah, you just about made it. Just to think, if you had not have lost your faith during that trial of your faith as you suffered with cancer.

Strong’s Everlasting
1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2 without beginning
3 without end, never to cease, everlasting

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life (Whoa; does that actually mean conditional life dependent upon my continued faithfulness?), and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (This is accomplished the moment we believe!)

Oh but LORD, Mar 13:13 . . he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (What you talking about? the end of what?) Context? Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not.