Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[GodsGrace]

It was something that happened to me. Not a feeling, it "felt"

John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

I had asked you how we could know we are saved, and your answer was that you felt this tingling feeling.
I asked what about those who don't.

We've both said all there is to say.

Continue in your walk toward God.
Don't ever turn around and go the other way.

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

I had asked you how we could know we are saved, and your answer was that you felt this tingling feeling.
I asked what about those who don't.

We've both said all there is to say.

Continue in your walk toward God.
Don't ever turn around and go the other way.

Wondering

I love him Sister. Probably more than anyone could express.

 

[FreeGrace]

LTD,
Christianity and being born agan is not a feeling.
It's something that we can know for sure because God and Jesus told us how we could know.

John, the Apostle, who spent over 3 years with Jesus wrote John 3:16.
If I believe in His Son, whom He sent so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, that is how I know I am saved.

He also wrote 1 John 5:13 for how to know:
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

One day you may not have any feelings at all anymore, but you can still be assured you are saved by having faith in God's Son and by believing in Him for your salvation.

Wondering

Amen!

 

[Particular Baptist]

These questions are for Particular Baptist:

Hmmm. I don't really know what the 1689 Second London Confession is.
Is it superior to the bible?

I'm also not familiar with the Baptist Catechism of 1695.
It says that all sin is punished? I thought all sin was forgiven by the atoning death of Jesus, Lord and Savior.

So when a child dies, it's God who's making him die to teach me something and chastise me, as per your statement above?

And Catholics believe in cosubstantiation???
Oh. I thought they believed in TRANSsubstantiation.

Could you tell me the difference??

Yes. I find all your statements very confusing.


Wondering

It is interesting you have the ability to log into an Internet message board but not to open a new tab to search out what these documents are, who wrote them or what they say. There is no point in speaking with you beyond this reply, as it seems your propensity to mince words (as well to deviate a thread beyond its topic; I Tim. 6.20-1). At the risk of speaking in the ears of a fool, let's try to make sense of this nonsensical reply.

1) Since you are intellectually dishonest, lazy and unwilling to read what the 1689 Second London Confession says (much less the signature line) it is subservient to the Bible. Chapter I, Of the Scriptures, confesses,

Paragraph 9. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which are not many, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.20
20 2 Pet. 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16

Paragraph 10. The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.21
21 Matt. 22:29, 31, 32; Eph. 2:20; Acts 28:23

. I'll take a wild guess, and assume that you probably won't ever read all the Scriptures listed, but that is on your head.

At further risk of answering a fool, yet though Proverbs 26 declares a time for it, elect infants, which would be all infants passing in infancy, go to be with the Maker having no ability to judge or be judged for their sins. The third paragraph of the tenth chapter has very pertinent scripture.

Paragraph 3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
10 John 3:3, 5, 6
11 John 3:8

Romans 9.11 "(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

3) I very clearly said the Romanists believed in transubstantiation; usually in a debate when you put words in other peoples mouths, you forfeit; wonderful job. What an expert ad hominem.

4) The other statements or questions made are
so foolish; there is no point in answering a clamourous woman.

 

[GodsGrace]

I love him Sister. Probably more than anyone could express.

You're a blessed child of God.
Be thankful and never leave Him.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

It is interesting you have the ability to log into an Internet message board but not to open a new tab to search out what these documents are, who wrote them or what they say. There is no point in speaking with you beyond this reply, as it seems your propensity to mince words (as well to deviate a thread beyond its topic; I Tim. 6.20-1). At the risk of speaking in the ears of a fool, let's try to make sense of this nonsensical reply.

1) Since you are intellectually dishonest, lazy and unwilling to read what the 1689 Second London Confession says (much less the signature line) it is subservient to the Bible. Chapter I, Of the Scriptures, confesses, . I'll take a wild guess, and assume that you probably won't ever read all the Scriptures listed, but that is on your head.

At further risk of answering a fool, yet though Proverbs 26 declares a time for it, elect infants, which would be all infants passing in infancy, go to be with the Maker having no ability to judge or be judged for their sins. The third paragraph of the tenth chapter has very pertinent scripture.

Romans 9.11 "(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

3) I very clearly said the Romanists believed in transubstantiation; usually in a debate when you put words in other peoples mouths, you forfeit; wonderful job. What an expert ad hominem.

4) The other statements or questions made are
so foolish; there is no point in answering a clamourous woman.

Yes. I agree with you.
There is no reason in speaking to a fool.
So I bid you a good day.
And may God's love be with you, in your heart, and may you share
that love with other Christians.


Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree. I went from being quite literally in a cold sweat and stuck to the pew, to feeling lighter than air and at peace the moment I yielded to the Holy Spirit. Way before I ever made it to the front with the preacher, I was SAVED!

I agree, too. God's Will, will be done.

It was the Holy Spirit that convinced me, it would take the Holy Spirit to un-convince me. I just don't see that happening.

I agree.
When I got saved, I felt as though I was floating in the air.
I was a drug addict and the Holy Spirit made me feel higher most naturally than drugs could ever make me feel.
And He just took all that away from me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, we all know that lust is sinful. And it would be extremely easy to believe that all of us (you and me) are guilty of the "lust of the eyes".

So, have you plucked your eyes out of your head yet? If not, why not? Jesus said to pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin and to avoid being cast into hell fire.

Why have you not obeyed the words of Jesus?

If he was talking about my own eyes then you'd have an argument. But a plain read of the passage shows he's referring to cutting off those who cause us to lust, or covet, or whatever, so as to send us to hell (the thing OSAS claims can never happen).

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

You're ignoring the context. As we can plainly see, Jesus is talking about cutting off those who cause stumbling. To be obedient to Jesus the church must cut off the 'whoever' (vs.6) that is leading the church into stumbling, for example, by teaching the church that they can return to their full blown sinful, lusting, coveting, unbelieving lives and they will still have Christ's eternal life.

Jesus says to get rid of those people out of his Body who cause that stumbling so that those who are stumbled won't go to hell. But OSAS insists that it is impossible for that to happen because a believer, supposedly, can not lose his salvation. But Jesus is PLAINLY teaching otherwise. Stumbled believers are most certainly in danger of being cast into hell. The words are plain as day. And woe to the man who causes that stumbling!

You have to unrightly divide the passage away from the 'whoever' in vs. 6 to make it a safe, meaningless passage about cutting off your literal body parts. But reading the whole passage we can plainly see the part that gets cut off are those who cause stumbling of the body so as to send it to hell. Plain as day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree.
When I got saved, I felt as though I was floating in the air.
I was a drug addict and the Holy Spirit made me feel higher most naturally than drugs could ever make me feel.
And He just took all that away from me.

Now wouldn't it be nice if our churches were equipped to keep us in that experience with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think everyone on the thread would agree.

Hyper-grace doctrine teaches their version of OSAS that says the believer can even become an unbeliever, departing the faith, and they still have Christ's eternal life. Did you know this? And that doctrine is being argued right here in this thread. They claim no amount of stumbling, even no longer believing in Christ, can cause the believer to lose Christ's eternal life.

 

[chessman]

a plain read of the passage shows he's referring to cutting off those who cause us to lust, or covet, or whatever, so as to send us to hell (the thing OSAS claims can never happen).

So a believer's "lust, or covet or whatever" sends believers to Hell???

I picture someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart standing before Christ on The Day of Judgment and Christ saying to him, 'sorry bro, even though I know you love me, my sacrifice did not cover your "lust or covet or whatever". That's an atrocious picture of Christ's atonement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christianity and being born agan is not a feeling.

I beg to differ. Peace and joy are feelings. And that is what the Holy Spirit grows in our hearts.

It's something that we can know for sure because God and Jesus told us how we could know.

This is how we know:

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren.
18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us..." (1 John 3:14,18-19 NASB bold and underline mine)

That's why the Bible encourages us to do that which shows we are indeed born again and ready to meet God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So a believer's "lust, or covet or whatever" sends believers to Hell???

No, the unbelief and contempt for the free gift that caused the sin does.

I picture someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart standing before Christ on The Day of Judgment and Christ saying to him, 'sorry bro, even though I know you love me, my sacrifice did not cover your "lust or covet or whatever". That's an atrocious picture of Christ's atonement.

It is, but that's hardly what I've been saying for months and months in this forum.
UNBELIEF is what will bring the Judgment on the (former) believer that OSAS is certain can never come down on the one who once believed. Your daily struggle with sin, growing up into Christ, all the while believing and trusting in Christ to cover your failures, won't cause you to lose your salvation. Forgiven sin can not be held against the believer.....ever. It's when you trample on that forgiveness you have received, that is when you no longer have any protection against the Judgment of God to come:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised." (Hebrews 10:26-36 NASB capitals and italics in original)

 

[chessman]

It is, but that's hardly what I've been saying for months and months in this forum.

It's not what you said just then though. I'm with you to a certain extent. Just as the picture I described (someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart standing before Christ on The Day of Judgment and Christ saying to him, 'sorry bro, even though I know you love me, my sacrifice did not cover your "lust or covet or whatever") sounds atrocious, I think a picture of someone who does NOT love the Lord Jesus Christ (or thinks Jesus was not Messiah) standing before Jesus on The Day of Judgment expecting Jesus' atonement to cover their sins is atrocious.

But that's not OSAS. You should stop claiming that it is.

 

[JLB]

So a believer's "lust, or covet or whatever" sends believers to Hell???

I picture someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart standing before Christ on The Day of Judgment and Christ saying to him, 'sorry bro, even though I know you love me, my sacrifice did not cover your "lust or covet or whatever". That's an atrocious picture of Christ's atonement.

I picture someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart

Your "logic" does not come from the scriptures.

If you love Him, then you will be faithful to him, as an obedient wife is faithful to her husband, and does not commit adultery.

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? James 4:4-5


If a person has a problem with lust then God's has a solution for that problem, as He has given all that we need to walk as godly people representing His kingdom in righteousness, and have eternal life.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4


He want's to forgive us, but He also want's us to be cleansed through confessing our sins, and learning from our mistakes.

• 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Paul then describes the works of the flesh, and warns that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


He who says, “I know Him,” [the definition of eternal life] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Please consider these scriptures.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But that's not OSAS. You should stop claiming that it is.

Don't tell me, tell Freegrace.
He's the resident hyper-grace OSASer that claims former believers who have denied Christ who sanctified them will still retain Christ's eternal life.

I can respect the traditonal OSAS argument that the true believer will not fail in his faith. But, besides the many pointed warnings in the Bible for believers to keep believing, there are too many former true believers for there to be any truth that true believers will not depart the faith. My tongue talking wife became one of them. She had weak faith and showed herself to be of type 2 soil. Her roots did not go down deep enough to keep her in the faith when we encountered trial and tribulation. But I know she was in the faith because she had the spiritual gift of tongues.

 

[JLB]

Just as the picture I described ("someone who loves the Lord Jesus with all his heart standing before Christ on The Day of Judgment and Christ saying to him, 'sorry bro, even though I know you love me, my sacrifice did not cover your "lust or covet or whatever")

I picture Jesus telling this person, the same thing He told the woman named Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess...

And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Revelation 2:21

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:5

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:15

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 1 John 5:2

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? James 4:4-5


JLB

 

[chessman]

If a person has a problem with lust then God's has a solution for that problem,

And boy do all persons have a problem with lust, coveting and whatever other sin you'd like to discuss. And that's the point. God's solution for our problem is a true heart filled faith in Christ. Period! Something the Holy Spirit was sent to seal for us persons.

If you want to show from the Scripture that a person can or has lost a true heart felt faith in Christ, go for it. Good luck with that. It wasn't in any of the passages you posted. In fact what was in them was the solution to our problem. Namely the fact that He has given believers His divine power!

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4

Correct, believers have escaped the corruption!

 

[chessman]

He want's to forgive us, but He also want's us to be cleansed through confessing our sins, and learning from our mistakes.

I'd say; He want's to forgive us, but and He also want's us to be cleansed through confessing our sins, and learning from our mistakes.

And He will totally cleanse us one day. I'm 100% confident we can't do it ourselves.

 

[chessman]

He's the resident hyper-grace OSASer

It's called hyper-grace OSAS for a reason. It's beyond OSAS. Plus, we're supposed to let others state their own positions, not state their positions/interpretations for them.

Don't tell me,

You're the one that said;

a plain read of the passage shows he's referring to cutting off those who cause us to lust, or covet, or whatever, so as to send us to hell (the thing OSAS claims can never happen).

Why should I tell it to someone else???