Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[JLB]

I'd say; He want's to forgive us, but and He also want's us to be cleansed through confessing our sins, and learning from our mistakes.

And He will totally cleanse us one day. I'm 100% confident we can't do it ourselves.

• Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:20-22

• “If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15

And boy do all persons have a problem with lust, coveting and whatever other sin you'd like to discuss. And that's the point. God's solution for our problem is a true heart filled faith in Christ. Period! Something the Holy Spirit was sent to seal for us persons.

Speak for yourself.

• God's solution is for us by the Spirit to put to death the lustful deeds of the flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

• God's solution is for us to walk according to the Spirit, so we will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

• God's solution is for us not to present our members a slaves to sin, but as slaves to righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you want to show from the Scripture that a person can or has lost a true heart felt faith in Christ, go for it. Good luck with that. It wasn't in any of the passages you posted. In fact what was in them was the solution to our problem. Namely the fact that He has given believers His divine power!

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8

 

[chessman]

She had weak faith and showed herself to be of type 2 soil.

Someone who has "weak faith" (someone who doesn't even understand the true faith as the rocky ground didn't, see Matt 13:23 if you don't believe me) is not in "the faith". And we all know what happens to someone that does not understand the true faith. See Matt 13:19a

Faith in Christ Jesus to have forgiven our sins is NOT weak. It's powerful. Divinely sent and perfect, in fact.

James 1:17-18 (LEB) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of change. By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

​

 

[FreeGrace]

If he was talking about my own eyes then you'd have an argument.

Oh, I see. Jesus was only talking about everyone else's eyes. My mistake.

But a plain read of the passage shows he's referring to cutting off those who cause us to lust, or covet, or whatever, so as to send us to hell (the thing OSAS claims can never happen).

No, a literal take on His words leads one to dismemberment and self mutilation.

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

So far, nothing here about the lake of fire.

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

Again, hyperbolic and hypothecal. If this is literal, then get out the sharpest knife you possess and start cutting off body parts. One cannot have it both ways; cherry picking what to take literally and what to take figuratively.

It's either fully literal or fully figurative.

You have to unrightly divide the passage away from the 'whoever' in vs. 6 to make it a safe, meaningless passage about cutting off your literal body parts.

The passage is either fully literal, or fully figurative. Can't have it both ways, to cherry pick your way out of this.

But reading the whole passage we can plainly see the part that gets cut off are those who cause stumbling of the body so as to send it to hell. Plain as day.

This is what is "plain as day" from Scripture:
Eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23).
God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29.
Eternal, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hyper-grace doctrine teaches their version of OSAS that says the believer can even become an unbeliever, departing the faith, and they still have Christ's eternal life.

It is obvious that the eternal insecurity folk do not believe in God's grace. They clearly see God's grace as being "too much" for those who don't deserve it by the use of "hyper-" attached to the word grace.

Did you know this? And that doctrine is being argued right here in this thread.

What has been proven is that God's grace holds every single one who has believed. If that offends anyone, that is their own problem. God's grace is FAR BIGGER than the eternal insecurity folk either comprehend or like.

But the truth is that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

They claim no amount of stumbling, even no longer believing in Christ, can cause the believer to lose Christ's eternal life.

Because those who have believed are secure in God's hand (John 10:29).

God's grace is FAR BIGGER than anything that any person can do. Which seems to offend some, apparently.

 

[FreeGrace]

Don't tell me, tell Freegrace.
He's the resident hyper-grace OSASer that claims former believers who have denied Christ who sanctified them will still retain Christ's eternal life.

Once again we see those who are offended by God's grace by the use of "hyper-" attached to 'grace'.

I can respect the traditonal OSAS argument that the true believer will not fail in his faith.

What's to respect, when the Bible teaches that some believers WILL abandon the faith?

But, besides the many pointed warnings in the Bible for believers to keep believing, there are too many former true believers for there to be any truth that true believers will not depart the faith.

I have fully acknowledged that fact. I believe ALL that the Bible says. Unlike the eternal insecurity crowd, who does not believe that eternal life is irrevocable.

My tongue talking wife became one of them.

What in the world?? How else would one speak??

She had weak faith and showed herself to be of type 2 soil. Her roots did not go down deep enough to keep her in the faith when we encountered trial and tribulation. But I know she was in the faith because she had the spiritual gift of tongues.

And because God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable, she'll be in heaven. Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish. Therefore, she will never perish.

It's sad to hear of any believer who has lost their faith. But the Bible says it happens. I cannot figure out why some believers don't believe that. But I also cannot figure out why some believers think that God's grace isn't big enough for such believers.

 

[smaller]

The bulk of what we as believers have been left to "grapple" with in various churches in their doctrines arises because of a general failure to recognize scriptural principles, and the vain attempts to squeeze these positions into one side of the ledgers of God. That's how we got orthodox against orthodox, Calvin against Arminian. Every little sect against every other little sect. A jot here, a tittle there, 3 or 4 words dividing millions of people. It's a shame really.

What these things DO tell us all though, is that there IS a lot of deception to wade through in these various so called doctrines and positions. This much is a FACT. I've had to go through these "messy plates" all of my believing life. First in the orthodox church. Then in the charismatic realm. Then in the freewill evangelical realm. Then in the determinist realm.

The reality is that there IS a lot of deception to wade through in sectarian christianity. Everyone wants to be "only right" in order to "save themselves." A valiant quest, assuredly. I learned more about Gods Words when I saw that the charismatics were off their collective rockers. Was forced to study their positions, to see if they were valid. THEY WEREN'T. They were simply wrong. And quite deceived.

The real questions behind these various splits is WHY? WHY are believers in general so apt to split like this?

In the end, I was forced to study my self, what I believed. Why I believed whatever I believed. The splits in the churches are really just pictures of ourselves, individually, in factual conflicts, reflected as larger bodies. Yes, all these "splits" to any sincere believer is a sorrowful thing to observe. But nothing can really be done about it. Those who do try to do anything just move themselves from one split to another that is more in accord with what they themselves think.

These conflicts can be removed for anyone who just listens to His Words. I'll deploy this example from Paul. And what it will show is that there are two basic factually opposed sights, both entirely REAL, but both in the same set of shoes. It is only when we try, quite vainly, to see only one side of the equations that these splits arrive on the scene.

Here is what Paul shows us about himself:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above, what do we really see? We should see the same things Jesus said in Mark 4:15, or in Luke 8:12, or in Matt. 13:19. These all speak to the same matter as Paul speaks to above. There was Paul. And in the flesh of Paul, a messenger of Satan in his flesh. This again addressed by Paul extensively in Romans 7, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17 or by John in 1 John 3:8 for example. But the simplicity of this is easily and best seen above. It was important enough for God to EMPHASIZE in Paul, so he would not forget this principle. Paul shows it again in particular in Gal. 4:13:14.

What do we really see then? We see Paul and a messenger of Satan in his flesh. Count 'em. TWO parties.

What does this mean to various doctrines? Does any doctrine really account for this? Probably not. Let's take an example of how any doctrine would play out, once we see Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. Two parties.

For this particular debate, some people try to squeeze the issue down to only secure salvation for the believer. GREAT! I believe that as well. But is that really all there is to the account? Nope. IN the same set of shoes that Paul walked in, eternal condemnation and eternal damnation also walked. So where is the accounting for that from the "you can't lose your salvation" crowd? The fact is, they have NO ACCOUNTING for this matter.

Reality will tell us that both eternal security and eternal condemnation in forthcoming hell walked together.

Forgiveness and unforgiveness walked in the same set of shoes as well. A Saint and a sinner walked in the same pair of shoes. One party UNDER GRACE and MERCY and the other party under neither measure.

We could even take the Nicene creed for example, and we could say would that really matter to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh? NOPE. Wouldn't mean a thing.

I hope you get the picture. It will save anyone trying to wade through these topics a LOT of time by taking account of the whole package. And when they do, they'll see TWO SEPARATE truths, both factually opposed, walk in the same pair of shoes. Understanding this "personally" will clear up any doctrinal disputes in the body of Christ and will steer believers clear of having to make such choices between camps. The fact is neither Calvin or Arminius positions can stand under the LIGHT that Paul gave us in these matters.

Both parties are quite factually wrong and didn't see themselves as Paul saw himself.

It's actually pretty easy to prove everyone wrong from the scriptures than it is to prove anyone as totally right, because nobody is "totally right." It's not even possible to be totally right. <- - - And therein lies the deceptions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, a literal take on His words leads one to dismemberment and self mutilation.

Jesus plainly says who the hands, feet, and eyes are:
"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble"
"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble" (Matthew 18:6,8 NASB)
He plainly tells us who he is talking about that we should be cutting off so we don't go to hell. But of course, to defend a hyper-grace version of OSAS it would be important to cut off that part of the passage so one could twist the passage into a meaningless teaching about cutting off your own body parts. OSAS must fear all the words of Jesus teaching in order to preserve itself.....and to avoid the stark truth that teachers of hyper-grace OSAS are the very one's Jesus is talking about cutting off, because they cause the stumbling that would cause a believer in Jesus to go to hell.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The passage is either fully literal, or fully figurative. Can't have it both ways, to cherry pick your way out of this.

Then 'whoever' and 'Me' and 'who believe' are figurative, too , then, right?
"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine)
Your argument is ridiculous. You're grasping, Freegrace, you're grasping. But I understand how imperative it is to people who teach hyper-grace doctrine to make it so causing others to stumble is made to 'go away'. It would be better for them to have a mill stone tied around their neck and drowned in the sea. That's a good reason to go into denial about what Jesus is plainly teaching to his people. Not an honest one, but a good one, for hyper-grace teachers. It is important to cut them off so that little ones who believe in Jesus will not be led astray so as to be cast into the fiery hell by that teaching. If hyper-grace OSAS doesn't lead believers to stumble then nothing does. The passage become utterly meaningless in hyper-grace OSAS.

 

[LovethroughDove]

This is the last scripture I'm going to post in the thread. It proves the grace of God and the holy righteousness of God. Meaning, we may not be perfect yet after being born again, but walking towards righteousness (because we have the Holy Spirit in us).

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children (ha, going back to the little children) I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says "I know him", but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Now, I don't judge people (cause that's God's job)........ I have concern for others if they say they know the Lord and they don't look like the Jesus I love! He loves people and would/does get a little angry when the people who were supposed to be God's representatives were/are not doing their jobs correctly (he got/gets furious) Misrepresenting the truth makes him the most upsetest (I know that's not a word, but I like it)

 

[chessman]

I said:

And boy do all persons have a problem with lust, coveting and whatever other sin you'd like to discuss.

You replied:

Speak for yourself.

I'd like to discuss the sin of the person who resists the authorites that govern the A&T Forum:

Romans 13:1-2 (LEB) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except by God, and those that exist are put in place by God. So then, the one who resists authority resists the ordinance which is from God, and those who resist will receive condemnation on themselves.
​

Those authorities have established the following ordinance:

The following must be followed when posting in the Apologetics & Theology Forum:

Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.
​

Yet, we see resistance to that ordinance here:

[edit, staff]

​

 

[smaller]

Then 'whoever' and 'Me' and 'who believe' are figurative, too , then, right?
"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine)
Your argument is ridiculous. You're grasping, Freegrace, you're grasping. But I understand how imperative it is to people who teach hyper-grace doctrine to make it so causing others to stumble is made to 'go away'. It would be better for them to have a mill stone tied around their neck and drowned in the sea. That's a good reason to go into denial about what Jesus is plainly teaching to his people. Not an honest one, but a good one, for hyper-grace teachers. It is important to cut them off so that little ones who believe in Jesus will not be led astray so as to be cast into the fiery hell by that teaching. If hyper-grace OSAS doesn't lead believers to stumble then nothing does. The passage become utterly meaningless in hyper-grace OSAS.

We all war with evil present with us Jethro. Nobody eliminates that fact by "acting good."

Romans 7:21. I don't know why anyone would try to "justify" or "cover up" that working to start with. It can't be done, legitimately, from the scriptures.

That's WHY we're saved, securely, ONLY by faith in Christ through His Grace, by His Mercy. Because of this "internal reality" problem. No "flesh" can be justified, period. No matter how good any person tries to make it otherwise.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 Cor. 11:
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Now WHY would Paul do that?! ^^^^^^^???

I might think to prove and emphasize the point, that we can not be justified by "works."

"MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE"

 

[JLB]

I said: You replied:
I'd like to discuss the sin of the person who resists the authorites that govern the A&T Forum:

Romans 13:1-2 (LEB) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except by God, and those that exist are put in place by God. So then, the one who resists authority resists the ordinance which is from God, and those who resist will receive condemnation on themselves.
​

Those authorities have established the following ordinance:

The following must be followed when posting in the Apologetics & Theology Forum:

Above all, focus on the issue being debated. Do not direct your comments toward the member and make the discussion personal if you disagree with what's been said.
​

Yet, we see resistance to that ordinance here:

​

Where?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Someone who has "weak faith" (someone who doesn't even understand the true faith as the rocky ground didn't, see Matt 13:23 if you don't believe me) is not in "the faith". And we all know what happens to someone that does not understand the true faith. See Matt 13:19a

Faith in Christ Jesus to have forgiven our sins is NOT weak. It's powerful. Divinely sent and perfect, in fact.

James 1:17-18 (LEB) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of change. By his will he gave birth to us through the message of truth, so that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

​

You seem to not be aware of those who have strong believing in what God has shown them to be true through the gift of faith, and those who have weaker believing in what God has shown them to be true through the gift of faith. My wife always had weak believing in what God showed her is true about Christ, while I've had a very strong believing in what God has shown me that is true about Christ and his forgiveness.

Oh, by the way, if God's gifts are irrevocable, why do people lose faith?

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus plainly says who the hands, feet, and eyes are:
"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble"
"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble" (Matthew 18:6,8 NASB)
He plainly tells us who he is talking about that we should be cutting off so we don't go to hell.

This is plainly against evangelical Christianity. People go to hell for failing to believe in Christ and receive eternal life.

The Bible is clear that Christ died for all sin, which your theology seems unable to either understand or accept.

It's as if Christ didnt die for certain sins, and those who commit those sins will lose salvation. None of which is found in Scripture.

But of course, to defend a hyper-grace version of OSAS it would be important to cut off that part of the passage so one could twist the passage into a meaningless teaching about cutting off your own body parts.

This is just more proof that the loss of salvation view (Arminianism) fails to understand the grace of God.

In your theology, God's grace just ain't all that much. Those who "exceed" certain limits of sin simply get their eternal life revoked. None of which is found in Scripture.

OSAS must fear all the words of Jesus teaching in order to preserve itself

So, what have I "feared"? Please explain.

.....and to avoid the stark truth that teachers of hyper-grace OSAS are the very one's Jesus is talking about cutting off, because they cause the stumbling that would cause a believer in Jesus to go to hell.

I believe that Jesus Christ died for ALL sins. There is NOTHING that can cause anyone to lose salvation. However, there are MANY things that will cause a believer to lose precious rewards in eternity, as well as blessings in time.

I also believe that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Nothing you've posted refutes that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Then 'whoever' and 'Me' and 'who believe' are figurative, too , then, right?
"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble" (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold mine)
Your argument is ridiculous.

Opinion noted. And rejected. And I believe the very same about your argument regarding loss of salvation.

You're grasping, Freegrace, you're grasping. But I understand how imperative it is to people who teach hyper-grace doctrine to make it so causing others to stumble is made to 'go away'. It would be better for them to have a mill stone tied around their neck and drowned in the sea. That's a good reason to go into denial about what Jesus is plainly teaching to his people. Not an honest one, but a good one, for hyper-grace teachers. It is important to cut them off so that little ones who believe in Jesus will not be led astray so as to be cast into the fiery hell by that teaching. If hyper-grace OSAS doesn't lead believers to stumble then nothing does. The passage become utterly meaningless in hyper-grace OSAS.

Wow. The perjorative word "hyper-" was used 4 times. Clearly proving what little regard your theology has for the MATCHLESS GRACE OF GOD.

In the theology of loss of salvation, there can be no such thing as matchless grace. God has just a little bit of grace, and His grace can very easily be exceeded so that God revokes the free gift of eternal life for those people.

One thing is clear; our theologies are vastly different. The God I worship and serve has grace that CANNOT be exhausted or depleted. Unlike your theological system.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, by the way, if God's gifts are irrevocable, why do people lose faith?

This is trying to mash apples and oranges together to come up with tomato juice. Doesn't work.

Why would one consider the free gift of eternal life to be equated with faith?

If one ceases to believe, or leaves the faith, that doesn't mean that God revoked his faith. It means the person broke faith with God. Not the other way around. So your question is flawed to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's as if Christ didnt die for certain sins, and those who commit those sins will lose salvation.

No, that's not it. There is only one sin that Christ did not die for--the sin of UNBELIEF. It is impossible to have the blood of Christ to cover the sin of unbelief when you don't even have the blood of Christ to do that because you do not believe in it (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

So, the stumbling Christ is talking about, that various 'whoever's' cause other believers to do, is ultimately the stumbling that leads them into unbelief. The return to sin itself is just the outward evidence and proof of that unbelief, which will be used to condemn them at the resurrection (Matthew 25:41-43 NASB).

So, what have I "feared"? Please explain.

You're afraid to see that Jesus is plainly saying "one of these little ones who believe in Me" can be caused to stumble so as to be "cast into the fiery hell" (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB). And afraid to see that hyper-grace OSAS is exactly an example of that stumbling of Jesus' believers.

I also believe that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Nothing you've posted refutes that.

You have failed to explain Matthew 18:6-9 NASB as not being non-OSAS. I have refuted every argument you have raised against it. You didn't even answer my last challenge to your argument about the passage.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, that's not it. There is only one sin that Christ did not die for--the sin of UNBELIEF.

OK, let's go with that idea. Where does the Bible describe unbelief as a sin? Secondly, where does the Bible say that Christ never died for that sin?

Unless there is evidence from Scripture for both of these questions, your premise is flawed wrong.

It is impossible to have the blood of Christ to cover the sin of unbelief when you don't even have the blood of Christ to do that because you do not believe in it (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

Well, let's look at that verse:
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left". So, where in that verse (or any other) that Christ didn't die for unbelief? It doesn't.

Go back to v.18 of the same chapter:
"And where these have been forgiven, there is NO LONGER any sacrifice for sin."

The Jews in reference were either thinking of going back to the Mosaic animal sacrifice system, or had already gone back. Yet, Jesus had ALREADY died for sin. All of them.

How do we know He died for ALL OF THEM? The Bible tells us so.

In these verses, the phrase "once for all" occurs in reference to the sacrifice of Christ:
Heb 9:12, 27, 10:2, 10, 12.

I'll break it down: Christ died ONCE, meaning ONE TIME, in contrast to the annual sacrifice of animals in the OT as a shadow of what was to come. The words "for all" refers to all of humanity and for all their sins.

There are no verses that teach that Christ didn't die for all sins, or not for any certain sins.

Your theology is based on more assumption.

You're afraid to see that Jesus is plainly saying "one of these little ones who believe in Me" can be caused to stumble so as to be "cast into the fiery hell" (Matthew 18:6,9 NASB). And afraid to see that hyper-grace OSAS is exactly an example of that stumbling of Jesus' believers.

You're in no place to judge what I've afraid of. What I am very sad about is to see your continuing rant against the grace of God by the use of "hyper-" before grace. As if there could be too much of His grace.

It is apparent that His grace isn't MATCHLESS in the view of those who ascribe to loss of salvation.

You have failed to explain Matthew 18:6-9 NASB as not being non-OSAS.

I did.

You have failed to explain how eternal life, a gift of God, is NOT irrevocable, when the Bible plainly tells us what are God's gifts, including eternal life, and that His gifts are irrevocable.

I have refuted every argument you have raised against it.

This is a joke.

You didn't even answer my last challenge to your argument about the passage.

Usually, after I've refuted your points early in your posts, I don't bother to read to the bottom. No reason to respond to what else is written after refuting the early part of your posts.

So, what is this so-called challenge to my argument? But this time, put in early in your posts, where I'll read it.

 

[chessman]

I said:

He also want's us to be cleansed through confessing our sins, and learning from our mistakes.

And He will totally cleanse us one day. I'm 100% confident we can't do it ourselves.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

That's a great passage, demonstrating my statements above.

Notice, Paul's flesh and Paul's spirit needed cleansing too. Yet you evidently think you have cleaned up yours.

It is simply impossible to read 2 Cor 7 and not see believers (including Paul) having afflictions, fear, grief and needing comfort indeed through God's will. Yet God's cleansing of those fears (which fearing men is a sin, see Matt 10:28a) is there too!

2 Corinthians 7:5-7, 10-11 (LEB) For even when we arrived in Macedonia, our body had no rest, but we were afflicted in every way—quarrels outside, fears within.
But God, who comforts the humble, comforted us by the coming of Titus, and not only by his coming, but also by the comfort with which he was comforted among you, because he reported to us your longing, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.
For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
For behold how much diligence this very thing, being grieved according to the will of God, has brought about in you: what defense of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! In everything you have demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
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One day, however, God will remove all our afflictions and fears. Including any fear of loss of salvation.

Isaiah 41:10 (LEB) You must not fear, for I am with you; you must not be afraid, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, indeed I will help you, indeed I will take hold of you with the right hand of my salvation.
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Some of us, however, do not fear loss of salvation precisely because of God's right hand). Some think they cleanse their own hands, feet, eyes and hearts.