That really threw me when I read some Christian articles about that and researched Scripture.It did not seem right to me that Satan would have access to heaven.OK, thanks.
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th1b.taylor
Member
His access is nothing like it was. As I have come to understand it Lucifer was, likely, cast down before Adam and Eve were created but that is a complicated discussion and study and would warrent another string of it's own.
Yes,a discussion that tells how Lucifer was very much favored in heaven and how he was one of the most beautiful angels in heaven for casted out.
Northman
Member
Oh indeed. We are told plainly about our battle not being against flesh and blood. Wouldnt have any idea why someone would put that away and replace it with something else. Why would anyone build a wall and set limits? The whole spiritual realm operates on its own type of "science" that nobody here or anywhere else in the world will ever come close to understanding. It gets to interact with us in ways unknown. I get the fact that unknown freaks some people out, but its like "come on, your a christian now, aside from Gods love your entire existance is being led through unknown".
There is no manual though, each has to seek God for their own case. God didnt tell someone else to tell Daniel or Paul about their situation, this is the type of stuff that sets the example. I guess now ive discovered im wrong in assuming folks are just going to do that for themselves.
And yes...decent discussion.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Zero scripture supports this idea. It actually does not take but a few scriptures.
When was Satan cursed? Gen 3.
Where was iniquity found in Him....... His Location as God mentioned? Eze 28
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(Eze 28:13)
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Eze 28:14-15)
Notice he was perfect until seen in the Garden and messed with God's man. Only 4 mentioned as being in that Garden...... Adam, Eve, Mr. Devil and the angles that guarded the Tree of Life on Adams Exit. Well, and God........... (5)
When did he loose his right to be in Heaven and accuse the people of God?
When someone replaced his authority and seat of position here on earth.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:9-10)
When did the Kingdom come?
When did the anointing come? (Power of Christ)
When did Salvation come?
That is when Mr. Devil was booted out.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luk 10:17-19)
Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
One more time, just in case.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Rev 12:5)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:7-9)
When the child was born, what happened to Mr. Devil?
Who was caught up to God and has their own throne?
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)
When did Salvation come?
When did the Kingdom of God come?
When did the power of Christ show up?
See how hard that was?
Rev 1-3, 12 are past events. It's not that complicated when you compare line upon line as instructed in Isa 28 and leave Hermeneutics alone.
Deborah13
Member
We see things differently. It's sometimes hard to find sound teaching to refer to online but I think this one is pretty good.
Hank Hanegraaff was asked this same question on a radio program. He really had a good answer in the end that it doesn't really matter because God has given us the means to withstand. But when he talked about Job, he called a "non-normative story". I would agree with this. The question is asked at about the 10 min. mark.
http://streaming.integrationworks.com:3000/archive/BAM20131008.mp3
He also wrote a book called, The Covering: God's Plan to Protect You From Evil where he says that satan attacks us in our minds.
I agree with this. he attacks us by accusing us to us, by lying about the Lord, etc. But because of the cross he has already been defeated and judged.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Covering-Gods-Plan-Protect/dp/B005Q6KFEY
I would also point to what I believe is an informative scripture in Job.
YLT
Job 9:31 Then in corruption Thou dost dip me, And my garments have abominated me.
Job 9:32 But if a man like myself--I answer him, We come together into judgment.
Job 9:33 If there were between us an umpire, He doth place his hand on us both.
Job 9:34 He doth turn aside from off me his rod, And His terror doth not make me afraid,
There is other scripture in Job that refers to the coming of the Messiah. He makes in our relationship to God and how God deals with us. Here we see that Job says if he had a mediator He would have His hand on both himself and God.
satan couldn't attack Job because God had put a hedge around him, God had to take the hedge down first.
I don't believe that God has a hedge around believers that satan cannot penetrate. He has provided us with a mediator, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and with the weapons of His word, His promises, and the power of the name of Jesus Christ.
I also believe that God does prevent satan from doing many things to us. satan would like to destroy God's kingdom but he can't. He tried that with Jesus, so the major way he can do that is to attack our faith to weaken the kingdom. When he is successful other people don't get saved because we aren't doing what we are suppose to be doing, being witnesses to the risen Lord.
Job repented, he didn't repent of being fearful although his wrong thinking about God's grace and his salvation is why he lived in fear.
So that is my thoughts on the subject. Thank goodness we don't have to rely on each other's beliefs, we have a mediator and the Holy Spirit, who teaches different things at different times in our lives. We all do our best to understand.
We are all His children, Praise the Lord.
Deborah13
Member
I think it was one of JLB 's posts that made me think of something.
When Jesus taught the disciples how to pray he said to pray for things to be on earth as they are in heaven. When we think of that some things are obvious like no sin, no sickness, etc. but what about no evil. satan and his angels are evil.
So was Jesus saying to pray for evil to be on the earth? How can those evil angels be in the third heaven where the throne of God is?
Of coarse I could be wrong. This is just my opinion based on what I have seen in scripture but I may be missing something.
No,He was not.The Lords Prayer said "Thy Kingdom come Thy Will be done as it is in heaven".This has nothing to do with satans very occasional visits because I am sure the inhabitants do not even see Satan.
Deborah13
Member
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.
I'm saying that 1/3 of the angels are evil and I don't think they are in heaven.
A
agua.
Guest
JLB mentioned something interesting about when satan went in to Yahweh to accuse Job.
"The phrase before the Lord does not necessarily mean they are in the Third heaven standing in front of Gods throne."
Job 1:6 KJV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
We usually think this means satan went to Heaven ( Yahweh's dwelling place ) here but like JLB has suggested maybe it isn't and I suggest maybe this is another "heaven" or place that satan can enter.
Can you give me your understanding of "high places" in Eph 6:12 ?
Eph 6:12 KJV For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ( G2032 )
G2032
ἐπουράνιος
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.
I was not sure what you were saying.Yes,Satan and 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven.The 1/3 of the demons that are here on Earth are not in heaven.It would only be Satan who is called upon by God occasionally.But he will not always have this access.He will be cut out forever in his access.
Great point!
What are fallen angels?What are the names of those who were cast out with Satan? Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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Deborah13
Member
I think I may see one difference here.
You're saying the God calls satan to come to Him.
I think he just showed up with the rest of the angels.
YLT
Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
KJV
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Another difference we have is that you see satan only going and accusing occasionally and I see he that he did/does
it day and night because of this scripture.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
You believe that Rev. 12:10 will happen in the future.
I believe salvation, strength, the kingdom, and the power of Christ, has already come, so therefore the accuser is cast down.
That's Ok you are in good company and most agree with you.
th1b.taylor
Member
I am like
What the heck?
th1b.taylor
Member
There are three heavens, as per scripture and this can be found in the Nave's references. They are the first heaven, our sky and the second heaven, the universe, and the third Heaven, where God is. I cannot see God the Father and God the Son anywhere but in the third Heaven until the return of the Christ. That places Satan in the Throne Room, visiting, a privilege no other Demon has.
th1b.taylor
Member
Kathi,I am like
I am losing my physical and my mental abilities at a rate that has driven many crazy and for that reason I rely on the Holy spirit, God in the third person, almost exclusively. This comment was to JLB and I'm leaning away from a rather sharp comment with this.
Also. I Corinthians 12:10
To discern spirit.
The senses trained ( IMHO ) are of interest to me. Jesus being able to discern / feel the power go out to the lady with the issue of blood; sure is not a natural sense. Seeing God's hosts may be a little stretch for man. Tasting the word of God Hebrews 6:5 is another.
Twelve pair of cranial nerves. Is one of the pair for natural sensing, and the other for spiritual? Twelve gates to the New Jerusalem.
eddif